Wesleyan/Arminians

[dhh712]

That's probably the best answer we could give, Vol, but then we have to ask how much Calvinism remains in even this Presbyterian body?

I don't know that it is much. Hasn't Universalism crept into this denomination? I seem to recall that some of its members hold to the idea (though I wouldn't take that to be therefore demonstrative of the entire denomination). Personally my impression is that if PCUSA considers itself to be Calvinistic, it is in name only (but I could be wrong about that).

Thankfully there are many non-mainstream Presbyterian denominations that are, from what I can understand, quite Calvinistic (if not completely so). I've attended a number of PCA churches that are and my own Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America is entirely Calvinistic. Now these are both quite conservative denominations. So I still don't know for sure of a liberal church that is Calvinistic (actually Calvinistic, not just using the name).

 

[Albion]

I don't know that it is much. Hasn't Universalism crept into this denomination? I seem to recall that some of its members hold to the idea (though I wouldn't take that to be therefore demonstrative of the entire denomination). Personally my impression is that if PCUSA considers itself to be Calvinistic, it is in name only (but I could be wrong about that).

That's probably about right, from all that I know. PCUSA did away with the Westminster Confession long ago and it's recently accelerated its move towards political and theological liberalism. But...I think that it still claims to be descended from the Calvinist Reformation, retains some of Calvin's social themes and Reformed polity. As for Universalism, I just don't know if it's made the gains you are referring to.

Thankfully there are many non-mainstream Presbyterian denominations that are, from what I can understand, quite Calvinistic (if not completely so). I've attended a number of PCA churches that are and my own Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America is entirely Calvinistic. Now these are both quite conservative denominations. So I still don't know for sure of a liberal church that is Calvinistic (actually Calvinistic, not just using the name).

All right, so your point is not that PCUSA is liberal, but that it's hard to find any real Calvinism left in it. I'm of the opinion that there is some there, but it's weak. AND then...

We have to ask if there's another possibility. Liberal and Calvinist usually don't go together, so I'm thinking this is the best that the inquirer is going to get, even with the shortcomings we both recognize. POSSIBLY the Reformed Church in America would be worth a look, but I dunno.

 

[Scipio]

Can someone explain what you mean by "liberal" and "conservative"? I mean, my guess is that if you're an orthodox (small o - meaning, you accept the creed as formulated in the first 7 ecumenical councils) Christian, you're, theologically, not a liberal. Does that mean you're a conservative? does conservative mean orthodox?

 

[Albion]

Can someone explain what you mean by "liberal" and "conservative"? I mean, my guess is that if you're an orthodox (small o - meaning, you accept the creed as formulated in the first 7 ecumenical councils) Christian, you're, theologically, not a liberal. Does that mean you're a conservative? does conservative mean orthodox?

There are no firm boundaries, but conservative doesn't mean orthodox since there is no agreed-upon definition of orthodox. But it does mean adhering to the historic doctrines and practices of Christianity.

A liberal, in the religious sense, is one who sees those beliefs and practices as non-binding and certainly only a matter of personal opinion. Just about any alteration is thought acceptable to a liberal so long as it's said to be generally in the spirit of Jesus' words and/or teachings.

 

[Scipio]

There are no firm boundaries, but conservative doesn't mean orthodox since there is no agreed-upon definition of orthodox. But it does mean adhering to the historic doctrines and practices of Christianity.

A liberal, in the religious sense, is one who sees those beliefs and practices as non-binding and certainly only a matter of personal opinion. Just about any alteration is thought acceptable to a liberal so long as it's said to be generally in the spirit of Jesus' words and/or teachings.

I'd have guessed the opposite - that there's no agreed upon definition of conservative. Orthodoxy, I think, consists in that basic dogma as defined by the first 7 ecumenical councils. But what might conservative theology be?

 

[Albion]

I'd have guessed the opposite - that there's no agreed upon definition of conservative. Orthodoxy, I think, consists in that basic dogma as defined by the first 7 ecumenical councils. But what might conservative theology be?

Well, you have a point, but what I meant was that conservative, for being a more general term when used in a theological rather than political sense, can be described, albeit loosely. But orthodox depends on what any particular church or theology thinks is the precise definition of
doctrinal correctness.

To many, it would mean adherence to the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed. But to others such as yourself, it means adherence to all seven Ecumenical Councils. Yet, the idea of orthodoxy certainly exists among Anglicans, Lutherans, Calvinists, and others who don't consider the Councils (or all of them, or certain parts of them) to be definitive. And there are other theories as well.

 

[Scipio]

Well, you have a point, but what I meant was that conservative, for being a more general term when used in a theological rather than political sense, can be described, albeit loosely. But orthodox depends on what any particular church or theology thinks is the precise definition of
doctrinal correctness.

To many, it would mean adherence to the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed. But to others such as yourself, it means adherence to all seven Ecumenical Councils. Yet, the idea of orthodoxy certainly exists among Anglicans, Lutherans, Calvinists, and others who don't consider the Councils (or all of them, or certain parts of them) to be definitive. And there are other theories as well.

No actually I was wrong. It's the Nicene Creed that defines orthodox Christianity, not an acceptance of the 7 first councils. I am not sure what I was thinking of - perhaps Apostolic succession or some such idea. But yeah orthodox Christianity is encapsulated in the N-C Creed.

 

[GraceSeeker]

I would be interested in hearing about prominent conservatives, as defined in the sticky of this sub-forum, from the Wesleyan/Arminian/Holiness traditions (not necessarily denominations). Most seem to be Calvinist or Molinist. I understand there is (was?) a Conservative Holiness Movement in the USA but I know nothing about it. I'm particularly interested in contemporary theologians, pastors and writers.

Many thanks!

You might want to check with the Wesley's Parish sub-forum to see who they might identify.

I don't know if these folk fit your qualification of "conservative". I know I wouldn't call any of them fundamentalists (except maybe Mark Bird), but in my opinion I would probably claim them as being both conservative and Wesleyan: Maxie Dunam, Stephen Harper, William Arnett, Mildred B. Wynkoop, David L. Thompson, David A. Seamonds, Ben Witherington III, Charles Jones, Howard Snyder, James Earl Massey, Robert Coleman, Mark Bird.

But maybe they aren't prominent enough for you either. Check out the list of professors at Asbury Theological Seminary or Trinity Evangelical Divinity School.

Another source would be Products « Wesley21.com

 

[NorrinRadd]

You might want to check with the Wesley's Parish sub-forum to see who they might identify.

I don't know if these folk fit your qualification of "conservative". I know I wouldn't call any of them fundamentalists (except maybe Mark Bird), but in my opinion I would probably claim them as being both conservative and Wesleyan: Maxie Dunam, Stephen Harper, William Arnett, Mildred B. Wynkoop, David L. Thompson, David A. Seamonds, Ben Witherington III, Charles Jones, Howard Snyder, James Earl Massey, Robert Coleman, Mark Bird.

But maybe they aren't prominent enough for you either. Check out the list of professors at Asbury Theological Seminary or Trinity Evangelical Divinity School.

Another source would be Products « Wesley21.com

As I recall, Witherington is not comfortable with most definitions of "inerrancy." So he might not fit the qualifications of this forum.

 

[GraceSeeker]

As I recall, Witherington is not comfortable with most definitions of "inerrancy." So he might not fit the qualifications of this forum.

NorrinRadd, your post led me to start another thread on "inerrancy." I invite you to respond to it....
http://www.christianforums.com/t7834897/#post66077953