Were There Two Different Jesuses?

[Sketcher]

According to Josephus, it was not uncommon for crucified to linger at their crosses for up to 3 or 4 days before they died. Jesus was taken off his cross after only a few hours by Joseph of Arimathea.

After they speared him in the vital organs to make sure he was dead.

Joseph must have realized that and set him at his walk-in tomb to return an hour or so later with some of his men to raise him from there.

This is lunacy which absolutely contradicts the historical record.

In fact, the text says that Jesus was raised an not risen.

The text says God raised him from the dead. You're pretending as though whatever hair-splitting you're attempting would somehow make any sort of difference.

 

[Ben007]

After they speared him in the vital organs to make sure he was dead.


This is lunacy which absolutely contradicts the historical record.


The text says God raised him from the dead. You're pretending as though whatever hair-splitting you're attempting would somehow make any sort of difference.

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It was not a Roman policy to spear-pierce a crucified to check if he was dead. This is a gospel or Church interpolation to add one more Messianic prophecy to Jesus' credibility.
Ben

 

[Ben007]

You are predetermining answers and making those answers fit your already skewed interpretations of the scripture you bring up.



It is quite clear in the NT that Jesus indeed died, and was later seen. You may personally believe Jesus never died, but please do not misrepresent the NT where it is quite clear Jesus died, and was later seen alive.

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I know you want to believe he died, and I understand how it is vital to you. But no one is 100 percent sure, even yourself. Only faith makes you so sure. According to Acts 1:3, to be seen after one's passion or suffering is no proof that one died; let alone resurrected.

 

[Sketcher]

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It was not a Roman policy to spear-pierce a crucified to check if he was dead. This is a gospel or Church interpolation to add one more Messianic prophecy to Jesus' credibility.

It was Roman policy to make sure whoever was crucified was dead before you took him down, and if he was taken down beforehand, the guards on watch would have been killed themselves. Given the politics of the region, which was an angry Jewish population, the holy time of year, a Sabbath day coming up, and the mania of ceremonial cleanliness, it made sense for Pilate to order the guards to check and make sure Jesus was dead upon hearing the news that he died already. They had a spear, they used it.

 

[Ben007]

It was Roman policy to make sure whoever was crucified was dead before you took him down, and if he was taken down beforehand, the guards on watch would have been killed themselves. Given the politics of the region, which was an angry Jewish population, the holy time of year, a Sabbath day coming up, and the mania of ceremonial cleanliness, it made sense for Pilate to order the guards to check and make sure Jesus was dead upon hearing the news that he died already. They had a spear, they used it.

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Now, imagine the Romans spear-piercing thousands of crucified. There was a time that they would crucify about 500 Jews a day. You must not be serious. Anyone in his commonsense knows that the gospel writer or the Church had a hunger for Biblical prophecies to make sure Jesus was the one.

 

[Sketcher]

Now, imagine the Romans spear-piercing thousands of crucified. There was a time that they would crucify about 500 Jews a day. You must not be serious. Anyone in his commonsense knows that the gospel writer or the Church had a hunger for Biblical prophecies to make sure Jesus was the one.

When it's just one man, it makes sense. Besides, remember that Pilate was surprised that Jesus died so quickly. There were several aspects of this crucifixion and death that were atypical - the quick death, the eclipse, the earthquake, etc. And just because something wasn't typical doesn't mean it didn't happen. By your logic, an atheist might as well say that Moses couldn't have had a staff that could turn into a snake because staffs typically do not turn into snakes.

 

[Ben007]

When it's just one man, it makes sense. Besides, remember that Pilate was surprised that Jesus died so quickly. There were several aspects of this crucifixion and death that were atypical - the quick death, the eclipse, the earthquake, etc. And just because something wasn't typical doesn't mean it didn't happen. By your logic, an atheist might as well say that Moses couldn't have had a staff that could turn into a snake because staffs typically do not turn into snakes.

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Yes, I agree with you. Pilate in fact did not believe that Jesus had died so soon. No wonder he had the Centurion check it out and then allow Joseph of Arimathea to take Jesus off the cross. Now, don't you think there is here some room for speculations? Joseph, a rich man in Israel, and the Centurion in need of a few bucks. But of course a fat bribe exchanged hands. Joseph got Jesus, the Centurion got his corrumption satisfied and Pilate got the news that Jesus was already dead. Practicality is the word.

 

[Sketcher]

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Yes, I agree with you. Pilate in fact did not believe that Jesus had died so soon. No wonder he had the Centurion check it out and then allow Joseph of Arimathea to take Jesus off the cross. Now, don't you think there is here some room for speculations? Joseph, a rich man in Israel, and the Centurion in need of a few bucks. But of course a fat bribe exchanged hands. Joseph got Jesus, the Centurion got his corrumption satisfied and Pilate got the news that Jesus was already dead. Practicality is the word.

Equally if not more practical is having a guard spear the man who was crucified for being a king first before giving him to Joseph. It would have been in Pilate's best interests to make sure Jesus was absolutely dead before giving the body to Joseph. Think about it, you just crucified a man who called himself the King of the Jews, and it's your job to keep the Jews from rebelling against Caesar. If the man survives and gets away, that's bad news for you if you're Pilate. No reason you can't take the money while covering your own butt.

 

[Ben007]

When it's just one man, it makes sense. Besides, remember that Pilate was surprised that Jesus died so quickly. There were several aspects of this crucifixion and death that were atypical - the quick death, the eclipse, the earthquake, etc. And just because something wasn't typical doesn't mean it didn't happen. By your logic, an atheist might as well say that Moses couldn't have had a staff that could turn into a snake because staffs typically do not turn into snakes.

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So, Jesus, among thousands of Jews crucified by the Romans, was the only one spear-pierced on his side. Okay, twistedsktch, you win. I know it is impossible to fight against faith. I rest my case.

 

[Ambrosius]

you are correct there are two. Jesus was all man and Jesus was all God at the same time. Isaiah 53 my friend, read the part of the Bible you do believe and it always points to Jesus.

That doesn't address their question though. The discrepancy is that it says Jesus was in one place and another at the same time. Certainly, something capable of God - but the whole thing about Jesus is that he is fully God and fully Human and is not separated. If you will have it that God Jesus and Human Jesus were in different places at the same time it makes him being fully God and human insignificant.

 

[Dark_Lite]

Thread closed. Please keep in mind the following:

We recognize that real seekers are looking for real answers, and the first reply given may be insufficient to achieve this. It is acceptable for the Original Poster (OP) to probe the answers given, and to continue the discussion on lines which help to clarify their understanding of the Christian faith.

This forum is not for debate. It is for seeking and clarification.