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Well preserved Archaeopteryx fossil shows link between birds and dinosaurs.

dlamberth

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"Archaeopteryx is the fossil that clearly demonstrated Darwin's views. It's the oldest known fossil bird, and it helps show that all birds -- including the ones alive today -- emerged from dinosaurs. And while the first Archaeopteryx fossil was found more than 160 years ago, scientists are continuing to learn new things about this ancient animal. A set of feathers never before seen in this species help explain why it could fly when many of its non-bird dinosaur cousins could not"

UV light and CT scans helped scientists unlock hidden details in a beautifully-preserved fossil Archaeopteryx

Stunning Archaeopteryx Fossil Found Intact — Scientists Are Speechless
 

Gene2memE

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Great story, but also a little depressing.

This fossil was in the hands of private collectors for 22 years. Seems like even if it was going to stay in private hands, they could have given the palentologists some time with it.

Anyway, this updates our understanding of Archaeopteryx quite substantially and confirms a number of predictions made around intermediate morphologies.
 
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Sir Joseph

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"Archaeopteryx is the fossil that clearly demonstrated Darwin's views. It's the oldest known fossil bird, and it helps show that all birds -- including the ones alive today -- emerged from dinosaurs. And while the first Archaeopteryx fossil was found more than 160 years ago, scientists are continuing to learn new things about this ancient animal. A set of feathers never before seen in this species help explain why it could fly when many of its non-bird dinosaur cousins could not"

UV light and CT scans helped scientists unlock hidden details in a beautifully-preserved fossil Archaeopteryx

Stunning Archaeopteryx Fossil Found Intact — Scientists Are Speechless

To state that "Archaeopteryx is the fossil that clearly demonstrated Darwin's views" is a revealing indicator of just how weak the transitional evidence is for macro-evolutionary theory. In truth, it's been a disputed piece of evidence from the beginning and remains so today. Yes, the secular scientific community and ignorant masses interpret it as fossil evidence for evolutionary theory, but there are credible creation scientists offering equally convincing interpretations that it is not. Here's one excellent article detailing why the fossil more likely represents a bird, not a transitional creature between bird and dinosaur.


For the atheist or agnostic holding naturalistic religious views, archaeopteryx will forever remain a reference of evidence for evolutionary theory. Know though that it is not clear at all without a presuppositional world view of naturalism.

For the Christian or Catholic wanting (appropriately) to hold a Biblical world view, know that the conclusions of scientists and society today does not generally derive from an honest interpretation of the evidence. Rather, it assumes naturalism, excludes supernatural events, and thus propagates the theory of evolution. Consider, the latter view depends upon an embarrassing few number of questionable transitional species in the geologic record - when there should be millions of them evident by billions of fossils.

I understand why unbelievers embrace evolutionary theory. They must, no matter how bad of a theory it is. The believer has no excuse though for taking man's word over God's word. There's no need to reconcile the two either since there's a preponderance of scientific evidence supporting the Biblical creation over evolution.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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To state that "Archaeopteryx is the fossil that clearly demonstrated Darwin's views" is a revealing indicator of just how weak the transitional evidence is for macro-evolutionary theory. In truth, it's been a disputed piece of evidence from the beginning and remains so today. Yes, the secular scientific community and ignorant masses interpret it as fossil evidence for evolutionary theory, but there are credible creation scientists offering equally convincing interpretations that it is not. Here's one excellent article detailing why the fossil more likely represents a bird, not a transitional creature between bird and dinosaur.


For the atheist or agnostic holding naturalistic religious views, archaeopteryx will forever remain a reference of evidence for evolutionary theory. Know though that it is not clear at all without a presuppositional world view of naturalism.

For the Christian or Catholic wanting (appropriately) to hold a Biblical world view, know that the conclusions of scientists and society today does not generally derive from an honest interpretation of the evidence. Rather, it assumes naturalism, excludes supernatural events, and thus propagates the theory of evolution. Consider, the latter view depends upon an embarrassing few number of questionable transitional species in the geologic record - when there should be millions of them evident by billions of fossils.

I understand why unbelievers embrace evolutionary theory. They must, no matter how bad of a theory it is. The believer has no excuse though for taking man's word over God's word. There's no need to reconcile the two either since there's a preponderance of scientific evidence supporting the Biblical creation over evolution.

Well, that was a good hoot to read for sure. 'Credible creation scientists' was definitely chuckle worthy.
 
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The Barbarian

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To state that "Archaeopteryx is the fossil that clearly demonstrated Darwin's views" is a revealing indicator of just how weak the transitional evidence is for macro-evolutionary theory.
Actually, it was a confirmation of Darwin's views. Huxley pointed out that the evidence from other archosaurs indicated birds were related to the dinosaurs known then. And Archaeopteryx confirmed his prediction. It's not quite a bird, but very close to the line that gave rise to birds. Would you like to learn how we know this?

In truth, it's been a disputed piece of evidence from the beginning and remains so today.
You've been badly misled about that. It was initially thought to be a dinosaur (the first ones were found without feather impressions), then thought to be a bird, and now is recognized as a maniraptoran dinosaur very close to the line that gave rise to birds (who are now recognized as maniraptoran dinosaurs). If you doubt this, show us one feature of birds that is not found in some other dinosaurs.

Yes, the secular scientific community and ignorant masses interpret it as fossil evidence for evolutionary theory
As you now realize, it confirmed one major prediction of Darwinian theory.
Here's one excellent article detailing why the fossil more likely represents a bird, not a transitional creature between bird and dinosaur.
Sorry, those excuses are just wrong. Archaeopteryx lacks a synsacrum (fused hip), and a pygostyle (fused tail). Close, but not quite. All birds, even very ancient ones, had these features.

For the Christian or Catholic wanting (appropriately) to hold a Biblical world view,
From the outside, it might appear that other Christians are not fully part of the church, but they are no less Christian than Catholics.
know that the conclusions of scientists and society today does not generally derive from an honest interpretation of the evidence.
And yes, when facts and logic fail, "they are all lying!!!"
Consider, the latter view depends upon an embarrassing few number of questionable transitional species in the geologic record - when there should be millions of them evident by billions of fossils.
Well, let's ask an honest YE creationist:
Evidences for Darwin’s second expectation — of stratomorphic intermediate species — include such species as Baragwanathia27 (between
rhyniophytes and lycopods), Pikaia28 (between echinoderms and chordates), Purgatorius29 (between the tree shrews and the primates), and Proconsul30 (between the non-hominoid primates and the hominoids). Darwin’s third expectation — of higher-taxon stratomorphic intermediates — has been confirmed by such examples as the mammal-like reptile groups31 between the reptiles and the mammals, and the phenacodontids32 between the horses and their presumed ancestors. Darwin’s fourth expectation — of stratomorphic series — has been confirmed by such examples as the early bird series,33 the tetrapod series,34,35 the whale series,36 the various mammal series of the Cenozoic37 (for example, the horse series, the camel series, the elephant series, the pig series, the titanothere series, etc.), the Cantius and Plesiadapus primate series,38 and the hominid series.39 Evidence for not just one but for all three of the species level and above types of stratomorphic intermediates expected by macroevolutionary theory is surely strong evidence for macroevolutionary theory. Creationists therefore need to accept this fact.

YE creationist Dr. Kurt Wise

I understand why YESs embrace special creationism. They must, no matter how unbiblical a doctrine it is. YECs have no excuse though for taking man's word over God's word.

There's no need to reconcile the two either since there's a preponderance of scientific evidence supporting the Biblical creation over evolution.
But you can't show us any? I know why.
 
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Gene2memE

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Here's one excellent article detailing why the fossil more likely represents a bird, not a transitional creature between bird and dinosaur.



This is most definitely not an "excellent article".

Let's take a claim at random:

"L.D. Martin and co-workers have established that neither the teeth nor the ankle of Archaeopteryx could have been derived from theropod dinosaurs…the teeth being those typical of other (presumably later) toothed birds, and the ankle bones showing no homology with those of dinosaurs."

This is not what Martin et al "established" in 1980, its something they argued for. However, later fossil evidence has shown them to be incorrect. At least half a dozen new Archaeopteryx fossils have been formally described since 1980.

The morphology of the coracoid and that of the proximal tarsals is, for the first time, clearly visible in the new specimen. The new specimen demonstrates the presence of a hyperextendible second toe in Archaeopteryx. This feature is otherwise known only from the basal avian Rahonavis and deinonychosaurs (Dromaeosauridae and Troodontidae), and its presence in Archaeopteryx provides additional evidence for a close relationship between deinonychosaurs and avians. The new specimen also shows that the first toe of Archaeopteryx was not fully reversed but spread medially, supporting previous assumptions that Archaeopteryx was only facultatively arboreal.​

The above paper shows evidence of the Archaeopteryx ankle (tarsals) having features of both ancestor and descendent populations - a classic mosiac or "transitional" species.

Similarly this paper shows close homologies between the tarsals in Archaeopteryx and non-avian therapod dinosaurs. In fact, it essentially disproves the hypothesis of Martin et al (1980)
The present study, based on more extensive material, reveals that, although the carinate process becomes associated with the calcaneum during later development, there is evidence that it originates as a cartilaginous process from the astragalus and is therefore homologous with the ratite condition. As the avian tarsus is homologous with that of theropods, and of Archaeopteryx, it may be used to support a close phylogenetic relationship among them.


Now, we might be generous and say that since Mr Gish was writing in 1998 that he couldn't have known this. However, there were literally several dozen papers describing Archaeopteryx ankle bones available that he could have looked up at this point that describe homologous structures with therapod dinosaurs. There was, starting roughly in 1988, a massive re-appraisal of Archaeopteryx and other maniraptoran dinosaurs, thanks to the discoveries coming out of China at the time. We now have fossils representing more than a dozen groups of avian dinosaurs in the Avialae clade.


Duane Gish, as is standard practice for creationists, selectively quoting here to make uncertainties in the sciences appear like counter-factuals. It's dishonest, it's anti-intellectual and it relies on the audience not having the time, intellect, resources, curiosity or motivation to actually investigate what is being argued.
 
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Ophiolite

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It's dishonest, it's anti-intellectual and it relies on the audience not having the time, intellect, resources, curiosity or motivation to actually investigate what is being argued.
On the plus side, it is consistent. :)
 
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NxNW

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To state that "Archaeopteryx is the fossil that clearly demonstrated Darwin's views" is a revealing indicator of just how weak the transitional evidence is for macro-evolutionary theory.
Macro-evolution is a nonsensical word.
I understand why unbelievers embrace evolutionary theory. They must, no matter how bad of a theory it is.
If it's so bad, it should be easy to disprove. So far, it's held up for over 160 years as the greatest scientific achievement ever.
The believer has no excuse though for taking man's word over God's word. There's no need to reconcile the two either since there's a preponderance of scientific evidence supporting the Biblical creation over evolution.
There is no evidence supporting biblical creation over evolution.
 
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The Barbarian

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Macro-evolution is a nonsensical word.
"Macroevolution" (not macro-evolution) does have a technical meaning. It refers to evolution that produces new taxa. Speciation, in other words. "Microevolution" refers to evolution that happens within a species. But it's really not very well-defined, since speciation is hard to define. Because speciation tends to be a gradual process it's difficult to say where the dividing line is.

In the case of ring species or clines, it can be more obvious. For example, northern leopard frogs can't reproduce with leopard frogs living at the extreme southern range of the species. But populations in between can reproduce with both. So one species. But if the intermediate populations were to become extinct, microevolution would then become macroevolution.
 
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NxNW

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"Macroevolution" (not macro-evolution) does have a technical meaning. It refers to evolution that produces new taxa. Speciation, in other words. "Microevolution" refers to evolution that happens within a species. But it's really not very well-defined, since speciation is hard to define. Because speciation tends to be a gradual process it's difficult to say where the dividing line is.
But it all happens at the speciation level. There is no question that speciation happens. The creationists tend to define macro-evolution as one creature giving birth to another genus, or higher classification, which is nonsense of course.
 
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The Barbarian

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But it all happens at the speciation level. There is no question that speciation happens. The creationists tend to define macro-evolution as one creature giving birth to another genus, or higher classification, which is nonsense of course.
Yes. Speciation is necessary for the evolution of higher taxa. Apparently, creationists have tried to redefine "macroevolution" to exclude the evolution of new species, genera, and sometimes families. This is the position of "Answers in Genesis", for example. This also seems to be the position of the Institute for Creation Research, which endorsed John Woodmorappe's "Ark Feasibility Study" which suggested that the religious term "kinds" was probably limited to families. Woodmorappe confirmed this to me in email.

The "cat giving birth to a dog" stuff isn't what most creationist organizations will admit about new species and genera. But they seem content to have their followers be misled to that point.
 
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AV1611VET

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This also seems to be the position of the Institute for Creation Research, which endorsed John Woodmorappe's "Ark Feasibility Study" which suggested that the religious term "kinds" was probably limited to families.

Kind = Genus
 
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The Barbarian

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Kind = Genus
That's like saying "Easter bunny = animal." One is a belief; one is a real entity. Not all creationists agree on what a "kind" is. Some deny evolution of any new species. Some allow evolution of species, but not genera. And some admit that new families evolve. I think that's about it for creationists. Mr. Woodmorappe thought it went as far as families. But he was dealing with the problem of getting them all on the Ark, so it was possible only with new families. Fortunately God didn't precisely define "kind." Scripture, for example says bats and birds are the same kind. Not many people would put bats and birds in the same genus. But if you're right, God did.
 
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AV1611VET

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That's like saying "Easter bunny = animal." One is a belief; one is a real entity.

I disagree with your analogy.

From the Online Etymology Dictionary:

GENUS

(Latin plural genera), 1550s as a term of logic, "kind or class of things" (biological sense dates from c. 1600), from Latin genus (genitive generis) "race, stock, kind; family, birth, descent, origin" (from suffixed form of PIE root *gene- "give birth, beget," with derivatives referring to procreation and familial and tribal groups).


Also, from the 1828 Webster's dictionary:

KIND, noun

1. Race; genus; generic class; as in mankind or humankind. In technical language, kind answers to genus.
 
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The Barbarian

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I disagree with your analogy.
Doesn't matter. Conflating religious beliefs with scientific terms is always an error.

From the Online Etymology Dictionary:

GENUS

(Latin plural genera), 1550s as a term of logic, "kind or class of things" (biological sense dates from c. 1600), from Latin genus (genitive generis) "race, stock, kind; family, birth, descent, origin" (from suffixed form of PIE root *gene- "give birth, beget," with derivatives referring to procreation and familial and tribal groups).
So each human tribe is a genus? You sure about that?

Also, from the 1828 Webster's dictionary:

KIND, noun

1. Race; genus; generic class; as in mankind or humankind. In technical language, kind answers to genus
And here, you have conflated species with genus. "Race" in the 1800s was the term for what we would call a species. Again, mistaking terms with vague usages in everyday language as technical terms will always lead you away from the truth.
 
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AV1611VET

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Doesn't matter. Conflating religious beliefs with scientific terms is always an error.

I have standards that put the two in their proper perspectives.

To wit:

1. Bible says x, Science says x = go with x
2. Bible says x, Science says y = go with x
3. Bible says x, Science says ø = go with x
4. Bible says ø, Science says x = go with x
5. Bible says ø, Science says ø = free to speculate on your own

Prime Directive: Under no circumstances whatsoever is the Bible to be contradicted.

So each human tribe is a genus?

No. I placed the emphasis squarely on what I had said earlier.

Kind = Genus

You sure about that?

Yes.

I'm sure I showed you from two different sources that say "kind" and "genus" are one and the same.

And here, you have conflated species with genus.

No, I haven't.

I said KIND equals GENUS.

I said nothing about species.

"Race" in the 1800s was the term for what we would call a species.

Whatever.

I'm not interested in "race."

I'm simply showing that "kind" equals "genus."

Again, mistaking terms with vague usages in everyday language as technical terms will always lead you away from the truth.

Then don't do it.

Pay attention to the words I'm using and respond accordingly, please.

Or we're not going to get anywhere.

Here it is again -- plain and simple:

"Kind equals Genus"
 
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The Barbarian

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I have standards that put the two in their proper perspectives.

To wit:

1. Bible says x, Science says x = go with x
2. Bible says x, Science says y = go with x
3. Bible says x, Science says ø = go with x
4. Bible says ø, Science says x = go with x
5. Bible says ø, Science says ø = free to speculate on your own

Prime Directive: Under no circumstances whatsoever is the Bible to be contradicted.
You've confused your additions to the Bible with God's word. And your prime directive is "Under no circumstances is my interpretation of the Bible to be contradicted."

And that's where you went down the wrong path.
 
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The Barbarian

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GENUS

(Latin plural genera), 1550s as a term of logic, "kind or class of things" (biological sense dates from c. 1600), from Latin genus (genitive generis) "race, stock, kind; family, birth, descent, origin" (from suffixed form of PIE root *gene- "give birth, beget," with derivatives referring to procreation and familial and tribal groups).
Also, from the 1828 Webster's dictionary:


KIND, noun

1. Race; genus; generic class; as in mankind or humankind. In technical language, kind answers to genus.
So each human tribe is a genus?
Then perhaps it was a mistake to cite sources that contradict your beliefs. Again, mistaking terms with vague usages in everyday language as technical terms will always lead you away from the truth.

Pay attention to the words I'm using and respond accordingly, please.
You don't seem to have it clear in your own mind. You seem to realize that humans are one species, but then cite a source that considers them a genus. Make up your mind. Once more, mistaking terms with vague usages in everyday language as technical terms will always lead you away from the truth.
 
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BCP1928

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I understand why unbelievers embrace evolutionary theory.
Good for you. Do you understand why believers embrace it?
They must, no matter how bad of a theory it is. The believer has no excuse though for taking man's word over God's word. There's no need to reconcile the two either since there's a preponderance of scientific evidence supporting the Biblical creation over evolution.
.Why should a believer, a person who has already put his faith in Christ, take up the shallow and theologically inadequate interpretation of scripture concocted to support YECism?
 
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