• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Weep Over Jerusalem?

Hammster

Carpe Chaos
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
144,404
27,056
56
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,940,328.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Where did you get the unscriptural idea that when God changes peoples hearts, their old nature is completely gone
...or the unscriptural idea that once people are released from bondage, they can no longer return?...or the unscriptural idea that when God reproves sinners for the purpose of repentance, the repentant sinners are soverigns?
Since they are scriptural teachings, your questions make no sense.
I never even hinted that God doesn't change hearts.
Then I guess I wasn't talking about you. But since you mention it, why does He change hearts? What's the difference between an old heart and a new heart?
Uh, no Hammster. People who have no free will have no ability to love. A real head kicker in Calvinism is that people do have free will, but only when it comes to evil. One of your buddies posted a cartoon with people worshipping the gold calf which said, "free will", but according to you, man has no free will...so guess what? Man is not accountable for anything...good or bad.
The God described in the Bible designed salvation with free will in mind and offers it to all.
I've never said man has no free will. So I'm not sure what this rant is about.
 
Upvote 0
J

jdbear

Guest
skala said,
Jdbear, I honestly think you are viewing the issue wrongly. You are coming at it from the wrong angle.
The issue was settled when Hammster admitted God hates sin and therefore reproves mankind because He doesn't want them to be sinful. Unless you believe God reproves, rebukes, etc sinners for some other reason?
skala said,
You can't blame God for withholding mercy. Remember mercy is something that is not obligatory, it is voluntary, and it is freely given. If God regenerated zero people, He would be just in sending all of those people to hell, because the reason they need to be regenerated to begin with is because they are spiritually dead because of their sins, and are hostile to God.
Two points here:
1) I don't believe God withholds mercy from anyone who wants it.
2) People aren't born spiritually dead. We've been down this road before and neither of us would budge, so forget it.
skala said,
Your argument is likened to some students who decide to get drunk, and are thus unable to do their homework. The teacher could be merciful and extend the deadline, but decides not to. Thus you turn around and blame the teachers lack of mercy for the reason the students are receiving their failing grade. Such a thing makes no sense. You can't blame withheld mercy (its not owed to begin with). It's the students (sinners) who receive the blame.
You would grieve the teachers decision if one or more, but not all of the hung over students were allowed to turn their assignments in late...and you'd win.
 
Upvote 0

Skala

I'm a Saint. Not because of me, but because of Him
Mar 15, 2011
8,964
478
✟35,369.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Two points here:
1) I don't believe God withholds mercy from anyone who wants it.

Neither do I. But that's not what we are talking about. (for the record, historical Christianity teaches that nobody wants God's mercy unless that mercy itself moves man to seek it in the first place. see the Council of Orange 529 AD.)

2) People aren't born spiritually dead. We've been down this road before and neither of us would budge, so forget it.

Fair enough. But let me ask you this. Why does every single person inevitably become spiritually dead?

You would grieve the teachers decision if one or more, but not all of the hung over students were allowed to turn their assignments in late...and you'd win.

But again, the analogy was not meant to discuss the extent of mercy (if so, another analogy would have been chosen). The drunk students analogy was only meant to portray the idea that it's the students fault (not the teachers) for the fact that they are getting a failing grade. The teacher cannot be held accountable for not moving the deadline. That's something she could do, and if she did, it'd be out of mercy, but she's not obligated to.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
J

jdbear

Guest
cygnusx1 said,
God invites all and none choose to come.
Why do all choose not to come?

cygnusx1 said,
"I chose you you didn't choose me " Jesus Christ said
John 15:16
You didn't choose me. I chose you....
He's in the upper room with 11 of the 12. He hand picked the Apostles from all of His disciples. (Lk.6:13)

That these verses do not teach irresistable grace is obvious from the chapter.

"Abide in me...vs.4, "If ye abide in me...vs.7, "If ye keep my commandments...vs.10, "Ye are my friends, if ye do...vs.14,

Your theology doesn't allow Jesus to instruct His Apostles (no less) to abide in Him, or to make abiding in Him contingent on anything they may fail to do, because Once God chooses someone, they're chosen. There's just one little problem with your theology. Jesus, in this very chapter, is warning His sheep if they don't abide in Him, they face eternal damnation. (vs.6)
 
Upvote 0
J

jdbear

Guest
hammster said,
So this is how you want to debate? Telling me that I don't believe what I believe? I think it's best to just counter my arguments with an argument. Unless this is all you have. Then by all means.
I didn't say you don't believe what you believe. You've been so indoctrinated by Calvinism you can't see that your usage of the term "unwilling" is different from every dictionary on earth.

Hammster said,
Ah. This would explain your previous assertion that I lie about what I believe. You need me to be a list so that you can make this emotional argument. Sorry. Not gonna work.
Oh by no means are you lying Hammster. You're completely deluded and here's the proof. By all means, please divorce yourself from all emotion. If you like, use a scenario where you're watching another person that you have no emotional attachment to. Just use your sense of what is right and what is wrong. Would you approve of any parent punishing his child because the parent told his child to do something the kid couldn't do?
Hammster said,
Since they are scriptural teachings, your questions make no sense.
Maybe you should read Jn 15 and discover that Jesus was instructing His flock about things which, according to Calvinism, they have no need even think about.

Hammster said,
Then I guess I wasn't talking about you. But since you mention it, why does He change hearts?
Because the old is not capable of being perfect. (Please notice that the old heart is not incapable of doing anything right.)
Hammster said,
What's the difference between an old heart and a new heart?
Lol...to begin with, not much. The new heart is the old heart being renewed. Your heart is your mind, which is being changed over time, of course by yielding to the Spirit.
Hammster said,
I've never said man has no free will. So I'm not sure what this rant is about.
Wonderful! So Calvinism teaches that man has free will to make any decision he so desires...yes?
 
Upvote 0

AndOne

Deliver me oh Lord, from evil men
Apr 20, 2002
7,477
462
Florida
✟28,628.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Wonderful! So Calvinism teaches that man has free will to make any decision he so desires...yes?

You aren't getting it. The bible teaches that man has free will to make any decision he desires - BUT - our desire will always be sin over God unless the miracle of regeneration occurs. See John 15:18-25 and Romans ch 1-3. Calvinism agrees with the Bible.
 
Upvote 0
J

jdbear

Guest
skala said,
Neither do I. But that's not what we are talking about. (for the record, historical Christianity teaches that nobody wants God's mercy unless that mercy itself moves man to seek it in the first place. see the Council of Orange 529 AD.)
The Bishops of this synod made the same mistake the reformers later made. Yes, I know...hold the presses...here on Christian Forums, jdbear is going to tell you what the giants of theology didn't see!!!

The problem is that the Bible is written in a fashion that can be taken two ways. One way is right, but the other is so close to being right, the errors of it are almost imperceptible.
The counsil you cited says (paraphrased) that God initiates the salvation process. I don't disagree with this. They go on to say that God initiates the salvation process by infusing (or indwelling) of the Holy Spirit. This isn't true.

"Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me....we (Father and Son) will come unto him, and make our abode with him (in the form of the Spirit).

skala said,
Fair enough. But let me ask you this. Why does every single person inevitably become spiritually dead?
Because at some point in our lives, we become aware of good and evil and when evil is recognized in our lives, it kills.
"I had not known sin, but by the law...For without the law sin was dead...For I was alive without the law once...Ro.7:7-9
skala said,
But again, the analogy was not meant to discuss the extent of mercy (if so, another analogy would have been chosen). The drunk students analogy was only meant to portray the idea that it's the students fault (not the teachers) for the fact that they are getting a failing grade. The teacher cannot be held accountable for not moving the deadline. That's something she could do, and if she did, it'd be out of mercy, but she's not obligated to.
That's fine skala, as long as her decision wasn't arbitrary. God doesn't pick names out of a hat either. (And just between you and me, I don't think you sound a bit like griff.)
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Carpe Chaos
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
144,404
27,056
56
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,940,328.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
I didn't say you don't believe what you believe. You've been so indoctrinated by Calvinism you can't see that your usage of the term "unwilling" is different from every dictionary on earth.
Unwilling. Not willing. Not sure what dictionary you use.
Oh by no means are you lying Hammster. You're completely deluded and here's the proof. By all means, please divorce yourself from all emotion. If you like, use a scenario where you're watching another person that you have no emotional attachment to. Just use your sense of what is right and what is wrong. Would you approve of any parent punishing his child because the parent told his child to do something the kid couldn't do?
Again, you are making an argument that has no bearing on what I believe. That's called a straw man argument.
Maybe you should read Jn 15 and discover that Jesus was instructing His flock about things which, according to Calvinism, they have no need even think about.
Or you just misunderstand John 15.
Because the old is not capable of being perfect. (Please notice that the old heart is not incapable of doing anything right.)
How much more right can the new heart do than the old?
Lol...to begin with, not much. The new heart is the old heart being renewed. Your heart is your mind, which is being changed over time, of course by yielding to the Spirit.
So Paul was wrong when he said we were new creations? The old has gone? Behold the new?
Wonderful! So Calvinism teaches that man has free will to make any decision he so desires...yes?
That he desires? Yes.

Now, do you want to calm down a bit and have a discussion, or are you just going to continue to rant? Because I won't respond any more to your rants.
 
Upvote 0

cygnusx1

Jacob the twister.....
Apr 12, 2004
56,208
3,104
UK Northampton
Visit site
✟94,926.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
cygnusx1 said,
God invites all and none choose to come.
Why do all choose not to come?


Because "men prefer darkness rather than light " .

So free will goes out the window for choice of Apostles only ?

Suspended free will ! :)






Logic.


Seeing as all men are said to have "implied ability" to come to Christ .

and

Seeing that Christ is extremely desirable , and the Gospel Message is such a wonderful ATTRACTIVE truth .


The final result , given those two propositions , should be , almost everyone in the entire world will be saved !!!!


Truth is , it just isn't so , and although point 2 is acknowledged by all Christians as an obvious truth , point 1 is proven false by the net result ; ONLY A FEW are SAVED!!!!
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Skala

I'm a Saint. Not because of me, but because of Him
Mar 15, 2011
8,964
478
✟35,369.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
The counsil you cited says (paraphrased) that God initiates the salvation process. I don't disagree with this. They go on to say that God initiates the salvation process by infusing (or indwelling) of the Holy Spirit. This isn't true.

It is true. Christ taught that "it is the Spirit that gives life,the flesh profits nothing". If what you say is true (that we initiate our relationship with God), then that means the flesh is profiting something.

Without the spirit first giving life, there is only deadness. The flesh profits nothing (that means the flesh can't accomplish salvation by itself nor incline itself towards salvation)

This is why all of Christianity has taught that the Holy Spirit plays a vital part in our conversion..the Spirit gives life.

Further, Christ taught that one must be born from above (an operation of the Holy Spirit - John chapter 3) before a person can even percieve, let alone enter God's kingdom.

What you are proposing is that a person can both 1) perceive (see, recognize, understand, etc) the kingdom and 2) enter it apart from and before being born from above.


Because at some point in our lives, we become aware of good and evil and when evil is recognized in our lives, it kills.

I don't think you understood my question. Why does this happen to 100% of individuals, guaranteed? Why does every baby who is born eventually start sinning?

Wouldn't you agree with me that fallen humanity has some kind of flaw?

That's fine skala...

So you agree with me then that it's not lack of mercy that is to blame for a person's condemnation. Thanks for clearing that up. So, did you change your mind then? Because I addressed this issue because of the many arguments you've been making on this thread :)

I don't think you sound a bit like griff.)

:D
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
J

jdbear

Guest
Behe's Boy said,
You aren't getting it. The bible teaches that man has free will to make any decision he desires - BUT - our desire will always be sin over God unless the miracle of regeneration occurs. See John 15:18-25 and Romans ch 1-3. Calvinism agrees with the Bible.
What good will it do for me to point out the first word of your proof text is conditional?

If the world hate you...vs.18
Jesus was hated, but not by everyone. Romans doesn't teach what you believe. I don't have time to sift through 3 chs of Rom to see what you're getting at, but the 1st chapter says people are without excuse, so you're dead in the water right there.
 
Upvote 0
J

jdbear

Guest
Hammster said,
Unwilling. Not willing. Not sure what dictionary you use.
Unwilling or not willing mean reluctant, yet able. A person who is simply not willing can choose to be willing. A person who is unable has no choice. If I redefined words, Calvinism would make sense.
Hammster said,
Again, you are making an argument that has no bearing on what I believe. That's called a straw man argument.
Your sense of right and wrong (especially as a Christian) with respect to how a parent treats a child isn't a straw man. When a person is brainwashed with false doctrine, they are unwilling to answer a simple question that defeats the heresy.
Hammster said,
Or you just misunderstand John 15.
I know the meaning of the word "if".

Hammster said,
How much more right can the new heart do than the old?
That depends on how much the individual wants to listen.
Hammster said,
So Paul was wrong when he said we were new creations? The old has gone? Behold the new?
No, he was right when he said we are new creations with old natures to fight with.
Hammster said,
That he desires? Yes.
How much desire did Paul have for the things of God before he was born again?
Hammster said,
Now, do you want to calm down a bit and have a discussion, or are you just going to continue to rant? Because I won't respond any more to your rants.
I've been calm all along. Maybe you're perception is a little skewed by the questions you've been asked and won't answer.
 
Upvote 0
J

jdbear

Guest
cygnusx1 said,
Because "men prefer darkness rather than light " .
So free will goes out the window for choice of Apostles only ?
Suspended free will !
Logic.
Seeing as all men are said to have "implied ability" to come to Christ .
and
Seeing that Christ is extremely desirable , and the Gospel Message is such a wonderful ATTRACTIVE truth .
The final result , given those two propositions , should be , almost everyone in the entire world will be saved !!!!
Truth is , it just isn't so , and although point 2 is acknowledged by all Christians as an obvious truth , point 1 is proven false by the net result ; ONLY A FEW are SAVED!!!!
So you find getting mocked, beaten to within an inch of death and spiked on a cross to finish the job extremely desirable to the masses then? We'll save the part about how believers should expect persecution for later.
 
Upvote 0
J

jdbear

Guest
skala said,
It is true.
Then give me your interpretation of the passage I cited.

skala said,
Christ taught that "it is the Spirit that gives life,the flesh profits nothing". If what you say is true (that we initiate our relationship with God), then that means the flesh is profiting something.
The salvation process doesn't begin with the indwelling of the Spirit, but with God reaching out to the sinner.
skala said,
Without the spirit first giving life, there is only deadness. The flesh profits nothing (that means the flesh can't accomplish salvation by itself nor incline itself towards salvation)
This is why all of Christianity has taught that the Holy Spirit plays a vital part in our conversion..the Spirit gives life.
When Jesus said the flesh profits nothing, He wasn't equating spirit and life with the Holy Spirit. You're misapplying passages of scripture the same way the Bishops did.
skala said,
Further, Christ taught that one must be born from above (an operation of the Holy Spirit - John chapter 3) before a person can even percieve, let alone enter God's kingdom.
What you are proposing is that a person can both 1) perceive (see, recognize, understand, etc) the kingdom and 2) enter it apart from and before being born from above.
I've proposed neither, as recognizing you're a sinner doesn't mean anything more than you see you're a sinner.

skala said,
I don't think you understood my question. Why does this happen to 100% of individuals, guaranteed? Why does every baby who is born eventually start sinning?
Because the knowledge of good and evil is spiritual and although we are spirits, we have bodies of flesh, which are carnal.
skala said,
Wouldn't you agree with me that fallen humanity has some kind of flaw?
Of course. The flaw is our parents acquired a knowledge that God didn't want them to have and passed it onto us.
skala said,
So you agree with me then that it's not lack of mercy that is to blame for a person's condemnation. Thanks for clearing that up. So, did you change your mind then? Because I addressed this issue because of the many arguments you've been making on this thread
No. You edited my comment.
 
Upvote 0

cygnusx1

Jacob the twister.....
Apr 12, 2004
56,208
3,104
UK Northampton
Visit site
✟94,926.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
So you find getting mocked, beaten to within an inch of death and spiked on a cross to finish the job extremely desirable to the masses then? We'll save the part about how believers should expect persecution for later.

There , you've done my work for me , none should be saved , salvation is a miracle !
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Carpe Chaos
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
144,404
27,056
56
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,940,328.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
I've been calm all along. Maybe you're perception is a little skewed by the questions you've been asked and won't answer.
No, that's not it. When you use words like "brainwashed", it just shows that you aren't confident in your replies. When I do answer and I get "there's no way you really believe that", it shows that you have no real response, and are just going to keep repeating the same thing.

Others may not mind dealing with you. I'm not wasting time on these types of "arguments".
 
Upvote 0
J

jdbear

Guest
cygnusx1 said,
There , you've done my work for me , none should be saved , salvation is a miracle !
Except people were unaware that Jesus would suffer and be killed. Put that together with the miracles and teachings they witnessed and there goes your theory.

Question for you cygnusx1:
"If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin..." Jn.15:24

What do you think Jesus meant?
 
Upvote 0
J

jdbear

Guest
Hammster said,
No, that's not it. When you use words like "brainwashed", it just shows that you aren't confident in your replies. When I do answer and I get "there's no way you really believe that", it shows that you have no real response, and are just going to keep repeating the same thing.

Others may not mind dealing with you. I'm not wasting time on these types of "arguments".
I answer every question you ask, but you can't answer mine, yet I'm the one who has no response? Ok.
 
Upvote 0
J

jdbear

Guest
Hammster said,
Oh, you respond. No doubt about it.
Hahahaha....ok Hammster.

Got any thoughts on this?

"If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin..." Jn.15:24

To me, Jesus is saying people are responsible for what they know to be true and disbelieving under that circumstance is sin. It seems Jesus expected unbelievers to react differently to what He did among them.
 
Upvote 0