Weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties

[JimfromOhio]

What does Paul mean when he wrote in 2 Corinthians 12:10 "That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong." ?

Weaknesses: (From Strong's Greek #769) of strength, weakness, infirmity, of the body, its native weakness and frailty, feebleness of health or sickness, of the soul , want of strength and capacity requisite 1b, to understand a thing 1b, to do things great and glorious 1b, to restrain corrupt desires 1b, to bear trials and troubles

Insults: (From Strong's Greek #5196) insolence
impudence, pride, haughtiness, a wrong springing from insolence, an injury, affront, insult, mental injury and wantonness of its infliction being prominent, injury inflicted by the violence of a tempest

Hardships: (From Strong's Greek #318) necessity, imposed either by the circumstances, or by law of duty regarding to one's advantage, custom, argument, calamity, distress, straits

Persecutions: (From Strong's Greek #1375) persecution

Difficulties: (From Strong's Greek #4730) narrowness of place, a narrow place, metaph. dire calamity, extreme affliction.

If you look at verse 9 leading up to verse 10..... God told Paul "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me."

Did God's grace made Paul strong?

 

[JimfromOhio]

Bump.

What does Paul mean when he wrote in 2 Corinthians 12:10 "That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong." ?

 

[foadle]

It was not so much God's grace that made Paul strong. Before you stone me listen to what I have to say. God's grace is available to everyone, yet we see a lot of beaten downtrodden people out there. So what was it that made Paul strong?
I would suggest it to be two fold.
1. Paul accepted God's grace in his life
This is something that many (Christian and non-Christian alike) struggle with doing. To accept God's grace properly is to truly admit to yourself that you are not able and are infact in need of that grace. In short to accept the grace of God is to be humbled.
2. Paul knew what that grace covered.
In knowing that God's grace covered everything that was not perfect about who he was Paul was able to get up everytime he fell and keep fighting the good fight.

Therefore while it could be argued that the strength given Paul was the grace of God I would be more likely to argue that it was Paul's acceptance of the gift of grace that aloud the strength and power of God to work in his life.

 

[LittleRocketBoy]

God's grace is sufficient to deliver him from all his afflictions.
Other than persecution... we are redeemed from everything this side of death.

 

[elijah115]

I think you need to read the whole chapter in combination with 2 Corinthians 10 and 11. This is the area where Paul is trying to teach the Corinthians emulate meekness through sarcasm, contrary to what "false brothers" may teach. He is trying to show them that it is worldly to boast in your own strength and that our confidence ought to come from obedience to God and believing the testimony of Christ. His weaknesses could include knowledge which puffs up. IF he acts like false apostles who only want power, control and esteem, although He is strong to the world, He is weak to God. He is basically talking in the flesh (sarcastically). Weak to the World = Strong to God. Weak to God is bride, backsliding, lying to look good etc. Weak to the world is when you get persecuted for obedience and honesty. Hopefully I haven't repeated myself, but thats what I think it means. I hope it's right. Does this make sense?


So it would mean "when I am weak [to the world], I am strong [in Christ]"

 

[JimB]

Like you, Jimbohio, I too believe that God uses everything for our good and that we should welcome, not resist, the hardships of life because they, like the perceived “good” things, are working for our good. And, yes, this may include a debilitating illness.

Were I to be laid up in bed, I would pray for a miraculous healing and comfort from pain, of course, but if it did not happen as I want it to, I would also welcome it as being in God’s will in my life at that time. I would delight in my weaknesses (

BTW, I checked up on the scripture you offered, and your reference. I discovered that the KJV actually uses the word “infirmities” where the translation you offered uses “weaknesses”. Strong tells us the word is, in fact, astheneia, a word that has been translated elsewhere by the English word infirmity, weakness, sickness, and disease.

For what it’s worth, here’s Strong’s definition of the word:

1. want of strength, weakness, infirmity
   1. of the body
      1. its native weakness and frailty
      2. feebleness of health or sickness
   2. of the soul
      1. want of strength and capacity requisite 1b
   3. to understand a thing 1b
   4. to do things great and glorious 1b
   5. to restrain corrupt desires 1b
   6. to bear trials and troubles

King James Word Usage – total:
infirmity 17, weakness 5, disease 1, sickness 1, 24

There is little doubt for those of us who do not read the original language that Paul may very well have illness in mind in 2 Cor. 12.10 and that may lend weight to the view, in context, that the thorn in Paul’s flesh was, indeed, a minister of Satan, a spirit of infirmity, that aggravated/tormented an illness in Paul.

Paul apparently wrote this from other experience, as well. That Paul was occasionally incapacitatingly sick with a debilitating illness, is evident from his letter to the Galatians where he reminded them:

13 You know that because of physical infirmity I preached the gospel to you at the first. 14 And my trial which was in my flesh [like a thorn in the flesh?] you did not despise or reject, but you received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus. 15 What then was the blessing you enjoyed? For I bear you witness that, if possible, you would have plucked out your own eyes and given them to me. 16 Have I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth? (Galatians 4)
​

Hence, Paul wrote 2 Cor. 12.10 from experience. He understood what it was to have to deal with a sickness that would not go away with prayer. He learned to delight in his physical weaknesses, infirmity because he knew that God’s strength was being made perfect through his weakness.

That is the most obvious view of the text if we do not view it through some doctrinal lens that would shade its clear message.

 

[JimB]

Well … what, if anything, is (biblically) wrong with this view?

 

[habeas]

I was reading 2 Cor. yesterday where Paul complains about being physically weak. He was also constantly being persecuted, and he speaks about it in 2 Cor.

Its impossible to determine from all the definitions what he was talking about. It does not appear that he had some wasting disease because he was always on the go. The fact that he survived 40 stripes minus one, stonings, shipwrecks, snakebites, imprisonment, etc. shows that he had a pretty darn healthy immune system, or God protected him until his appointed time to die.

 

[LittleRocketBoy]

Well … what, if anything, is (biblically) wrong with this view?

What is your stance when you go into prayer?
Do you know His will for the thing you are asking for?
Do you know He is going to reward you with the things you are asking for?
If not... how can you pray with faith that you will receive... anything... ever?

It totally undoes the entire concept that God has set in place for our prayer life. We cannot believe for anything because we never know why we are enduring the things we are going through.
That cancer may he a hardship designed for ???? Who knows?
So how can you pray to be healed of that cancer if in the back of you head you have doubts that He will do it? He may want you to keep it? Where is there room for faith?
And I am sorry but "I just think He knows what best for me" is not a statement of faith. It is a statement of resignation to whatever comes at you. Any unbeliever could say that and get the exact same results.... Nothing.
I find error in it because it short circuits the very method by which God has set up to both enable us to please Him and to receive from Him.

 

[JimB]

I was reading 2 Cor. yesterday where Paul complains about being physically weak. He was also constantly being persecuted, and he speaks about it in 2 Cor.

Its impossible to determine from all the definitions what he was talking about. It does not appear that he had some wasting disease because he was always on the go. The fact that he survived 40 stripes minus one, stonings, shipwrecks, snakebites, imprisonment, etc. shows that he had a pretty darn healthy immune system, or God protected him until his appointed time to die.

Good point. But maybe Paul was one of those rare individuals who just do not let little things like debilitating illness keep them down.

Even with a severe physical illness, Paul says in Gal. 4.13, he still preached to them. The condition, obviously an ocular illness, was so incapacitating that the Galatians would have willingly “torn out their eyes” for him to give him relief.

 

[JimB]

What is your stance when you go into prayer?
Do you know His will for the thing you are asking for?
Do you know He is going to reward you with the things you are asking for?
If not... how can you pray with faith that you will receive... anything... ever?

It totally undoes the entire concept that God has set in place for our prayer life. We cannot believe for anything because we never know why we are enduring the things we are going through.
That cancer may he a hardship designed for ???? Who knows?
So how can you pray to be healed of that cancer if in the back of you head you have doubts that He will do it? He may want you to keep it? Where is there room for faith?
And I am sorry but "I just think He knows what best for me" is not a statement of faith. It is a statement of resignation to whatever comes at you. Any unbeliever could say that and get the exact same results.... Nothing.
I find error in it because it short circuits the very method by which God has set up to both enable us to please Him and to receive from Him.

Of course I do not know His will in everything I ask for or in decisions I am making or what I intend to do any more than Paul did when he told the Corinthians But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord wills (1 Cor. 4.19)

We are told repeatedly in this forum that it is “unscriptural” to say/pray “if it be Your will”. If so, then apparently Paul wrote 1 Cor. 4.19 out of the will of God, if this is true.

The prayer of faith is as much one of trust in God’s will (which we may not know when we pray) as it is a guarantee that what we want will come to pass.

This is the clear teaching of Hebrews 11, the great chapter of faith in the NT. Here is active faith that gets things from God …

32 And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets: 33 who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35 Women received their dead raised to life again ...
​

… and trusting, passive faith that accepts whatever God gives ...

35 ... Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. 36 Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented— 38 of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth. </SPAN>
​

IMO

 

[JimfromOhio]

Through Grace of Jesus Christ, Jesus transforms my inadequacies into victories. Through grace, I am never felt victimized by my inadequencies. The key to conquering doubt is to focus on the perserving power of God through His Grace. My performance (i.e. faith for healing) does not determine my standing in Christ but rather my standing in Christ determines my performance. Discouragement and doubt are reflect by fellow believers to pushes healing more than grace, meaning, they are putting faith in healing rather faith in Jesus Christ.

We do not know what God has planned or how He intends to use our adversities for His glory and our eternal gain. God have a spiritual goal which those of us are going through will have a positive result in the lives of others. If we could see the end result of things from God’s view point as Paul said in verse 10 " I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong." The Christian walk is a fight of Faith, we have to understand that living (walking) by faith, we accept purpose and plans of God however He sees fit. How does our Christian grow in Faith? We grow through circumstances. Look at it this way, we would not have grown spiritually in the acceptance and understanding of God's grace and ways if God had removed the trial.

Romans 8:28-29 "And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them." When people are facing trials of any sort, it is most likely it is God's divine decision rather a person's lack of faith (as some people preach). Proverbs 20:24 How can we understand the road we travel? It is the LORD who directs our steps. When times are good, be happy; but when times are bad, consider: God has made the one as well as the other. Therefore, a man cannot discover anything about his future. Eccl 7:14. In Proverbs 16:9 We can make our plans, but the LORD determines our steps.

Faith is know God is with me and I have victories (even though I am not healed as spiritual superior as others who have been healed).

The Christian walk is a fight of Faith, we have to understand that living (walking) by faith, we accept purpose and plans of God however He sees fit. 1 Cor. 10:13, "These has no testing taken you but such as is common to man; but God will, with the testing, also make a way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.”

 

[elijah115]

Of course I do not know His will in everything I ask for or in decisions I am making or what I intend to do any more than Paul did when he told the Corinthians But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord wills (1 Cor. 4.19)

We are told repeatedly in this forum that it is &#8220;unscriptural&#8221; to say/pray &#8220;if it be Your will&#8221;. If so, then apparently Paul wrote 1 Cor. 4.19 out of the will of God, if this is true.

The prayer of faith is as much one of trust in God&#8217;s will (which we may not know when we pray) as it is a guarantee that what we want will come to pass.

This is the clear teaching of Hebrews 11, the great chapter of faith in the NT. Here is active faith that gets things from God &#8230;

32 And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets: 33 who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35 Women received their dead raised to life again ...
​

&#8230; and trusting, passive faith that accepts whatever God gives ...

35 ... Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. 36 Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented&#8212; 38 of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth. </SPAN>
​

IMO

I think this is sympthomatic of American capitalist style preaching. The writer of Hebrews made no such division of relegating those who were sawn to the level of passively faithful. To my knowledge they weren't ranked. He was illustrating that true faith is not based on rewards, otherwise you might as well be a non-christian. Was the prophet Zechariah passively full of faith because He was martyred? What about Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego (excuse my spelling), were they passive?

Daniel 3

16 Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to the king, "O Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. 17 If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to save us from it, and he will rescue us from your hand, O king. 18 But even if he does not, we want you to know, O king, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up."

The Lord's Prayer also includes "Your will be done".

Luke 22:42

"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."

I think the type of preaching that says you're a loser if God doesn't heal you isn't of Christ, but self-serving. True, God will not withhold any good thing from those who obey him and please him. He will not give scorpions instead of bread. When all the sick came to Jesus, He healed them all. But Christ also said this:

Matthew 9:15

Jesus answered, "How can the guests of the bridegroom mourn while he is with them? The time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them; then they will fast.

(Also recorded in Mark 2:19, Luke 5:34-5)

So you have to fight in prayer for your healing, but trust God even if you don't get it immediately or get it all. It may not seem worldly with their win, win, win commercial messages, but that's the way of God. For that reason it is written in Hebrews 2:10:

In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.

 

[franky67]

JimM,
We are told repeatedly in this forum that it is “unscriptural” to say/pray “if it be Your will”.

1 Cor. 4.19 "I will come to you soon, if the Lord wills".

Our comings and goings are not specified in God's word, therefore, we must pray "if it be thy will", but when the will of God is known, then we pray with confidence.

James 5.14,15
"Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the Elders of the church, and let the pray over him...."

verse 15
"and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick............."

That's why it's unnecessary to pray "if it be thy will" in the two examples above.

I think maybe you knew that all along, didn't you Jim ?

 

[JimfromOhio]

1 Cor. 4.19 "I will come to you soon, if the Lord wills".

Our comings and goings are not specified in God's word, therefore, we must pray "if it be thy will", but when the will of God is known, then we pray with confidence.

James 5.14,15
"Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the Elders of the church, and let the pray over him...."

verse 15
"and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick............."

That's why it's unnecessary to pray "if it be thy will" in the two examples above.

I think maybe you knew that all along, didn't you Jim ?

If the Lord will is often consfused because of human reasonings. His purpose is to make us more like Christ. With Christ inside me, God has granted me the ability to understand the truth and live accordingly (1 John 1:5-6). I just keep on living and keeping God in my life.

God's will

1 Samuel 2:25 ........ for it was the LORD's will to put them to death.

Isaiah 53:10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer

Ephesians 5:17 Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is.

1 Thessalonians 4:3 It is God's will that you should be sanctified.

1 Thessalonians 5:18 give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 2:15 For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men.

1 Peter 3:17 It is better, if it is God's will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.

1 Peter 4:19 So then, those who suffer according to God's will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.

Psalm 103:21 Praise the LORD, all his heavenly hosts, you his servants who do his will.

John 9:31 We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly man who does his will.

Romans 2:18 if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law;

Hebrews 13:21 equip you with everything good for doing his will, and may he work in us what is pleasing to him, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1 John 5:14 This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.

Romans 12:2 .........Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

Healing is not the ONLY thing that God have a "will" in. We all have to be careful where we place our priorities in God's will otherwise, He will not hear us. 1 Thessalonians 4:3 It is God's will that you should be sanctified

 

[JimB]

1 Cor. 4.19 "I will come to you soon, if the Lord wills".

Our comings and goings are not specified in God's word, therefore, we must pray "if it be thy will", but when the will of God is known, then we pray with confidence.

James 5.14,15
"Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the Elders of the church, and let the pray over him...."

verse 15
"and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick............."

That's why it's unnecessary to pray "if it be thy will" in the two examples above.

I think maybe you knew that all along, didn't you Jim ?

Okay, I’ll go through this for the umpteenth time. Somebody is not paying attention.

What I know is that your claim does not work as fool-proof as you interpret it. Why, because you are not balancing James' statement with other clear passages of scripture, like his very own that where he said, "You ask and have not."

I am sure have anointed and prayed for many people the Lord did not heal and raise up. Every preacher has. If the scripture you offer works like you say it does, it would work without fail. I mean, if it is always in every instance perfectly every single time God’s will to heal the sick, as you seem to be saying.

You are saying that, right?

Why then doesn’t anointing the sick and prayer work all the time? Well, according to my view, it’s because of what the Apostle said in 1 John 5.14-15, “Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.”

So (and this does not take a rocket scientist to figure out), the only solution as to why the prayer does not always without fail in every instance work is because every prayer encounter for the sick must not be according to God’s will. Yep, there just may be a time and a reason why God does not heal the person we are anointing and praying for.

What’s wrong with leaving that little detail to Him? You pray; He does His thing. Praying is your responsibility; healing (or not healing) is His.

Simple, as long as your doctrine does not muddy things up.

 

[probinson]

The condition, obviously an ocular illness, was so incapacitating that the Galatians would have willingly “torn out their eyes” for him to give him relief.

For someone who likes to point out the "exaggerations" in the Bible, it's mind boggling how you can find this a "literal" statement.

All doesn't literally mean ALL, but people literally wanted to tear their eyes out.

 

[Christina M]

For someone who likes to point out the "exaggerations" in the Bible, it's mind boggling how you can find this a "literal" statement.

All doesn't literally mean ALL, but people literally wanted to tear their eyes out.

But, Pete, doncha know, it is us WOF-ers who hold onto our "pet scriptures" and "spoon-fed doctrines" and "take scripture out of context to fit our warped doctrine".....

 

[JimfromOhio]

For someone who likes to point out the "exaggerations" in the Bible, it's mind boggling how you can find this a "literal" statement.

All doesn't literally mean ALL, but people literally wanted to tear their eyes out.

Yeah.. if one want to be VERY LITERAL....

In John 3

Nicodemus asked Jesus "How can a man be born when he is old? Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

Now.. that's literal !!!!

What's not so literal is that our temporary body will remain the same and Jesus explained further: "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

Jesus asked him: "Have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life."

Ephesians 1:3
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.

 

[Atlantians]

For someone who likes to point out the "exaggerations" in the Bible, it's mind boggling how you can find this a "literal" statement.

All doesn't literally mean ALL, but people literally wanted to tear their eyes out.

Read Psalm One before you go and mock someone.