we will not precede-- this day of Eternity

[jeffweeder]

What does it mean when Paul says that the living will not precede to the lord, till the dead in Christ are raised?
Explaining the rapture, paul tells us that the dead in Christ will be raised on his decent from heaven and then the living ones will be caught up with them then.
This is to say that no living saint will be caught away to the lord, before the day of ressurection.

Are we now to say that the ressurection happens before the tribulation.
No way, because Jesus himself said that "after the trib of those days" the stars will fall, the sun doesnt shine, the moon goes out and the heavens will be dissolved with the shakin...and then the son of man will appear..when you see this ...look up , because your Redemption draweth near....

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.




30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.





27 "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory.
28 "But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

This redemption, is the redemption of our bodies ==ressurection---glorification.

Pauls teaching you that he speaks of the lords teaching--according to the word of the lord.
Quote:

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Matt 24--mk 13 --lk 21--jn 14 all tell us of Jesus promise/word to come back and get us.

Peter refers to that promise of the lords, and whats going on in the heavens;




Quote:
Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts,
4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming?

Quote:
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.


10

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

Sounds exactly like what Jesus said about his promise.
Peter knows that Paul contributes wisdom in all of his letters, about this promise the lord made;

Quote:

Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,
15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,
16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,
18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

There is that day of eternity again.
Jesus said that he would raise us the last day.
John said that when he appears we will be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

Job says;

Quote:
But man dies and lies prostrate.
Man expires, and where is he?
11 "As water evaporates from the sea,
And a river becomes parched and dried up,

12 So man lies down and does not rise.
Until the heavens are no longer,
He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.



13 "Oh that You would hide me in Sheol,
That You would conceal me until Your wrath returns to You,
That You would set a limit for me and remember me!


14 "If a man dies, will he live again?
All the days of my struggle I will wait
Until my change comes.



Remember that the living cannot precede to the lord until this day of Eternity, when the dead in Christ rise first

 

[zeke37]

Nice post Jeff....


the living cannot go before the dead in Christ...

 

[garry2]

Nice post Jeff....


the living cannot go before the dead in Christ...

That's right.

1. Thessalonians 4
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The changed (imperishable) bodies of the dead in Christ rise first.
Then we who are still alive and are changed in the twinkling of an eye will be caught up to meet them in the clouds to be with Jesus forever.
This is the pre 7 year tribulation catching up to Christ.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

There are several resurrections:

1. Jesus
2. Those who rose when Jesus rose Matt 27:52
3. resurrection at catching away prior to judgment and wrath of the consecrated ones (REV 6 - 5th seal/rev 7/ 2 Thess 2, 1 Thess 4:13-18, Psalm 50, Isaiah 26:19-21, etc)
4. two witnesses are resurrected and raptured (rev 11)
5. those who refused to worship the beast (rev 20)
6. and resurrection for GWT judgment after millenium (REV 20)


The tribulation has been going on for 2000 years, since Christ ascended and opened the first four seals of rev 6 which just so happen line up with Matt 24/Mark 13/Luke 21. All that remains is judgement and wrath which begins with the judgment ,according to the blood of Christ, of the body of Christ. After we are judged (instantly) and given our rewards, there is a remnant of Israel which are sealed and protected while God pours out judgment on the rest of the world.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days (2000 years = 2 days), then the earthquake, sun/moon/stars darken and wrath begins which is the exact order of seals 5-7 of Rev 6-8.
Seal #5 is giving of white robes which the bride wears, glorified bodies.
Seal #6 is the earthquake, sun/moon/stars darkening which signals day of wrath and the stars fall (war in heaven, satan falls)
Seal #7 is the trumpets and bowls.

The last trumpet is the last "Yobel" (which means loud blast of ram's horn or trumpet) or Jubilee of 120 Jubilees (120 x 50 = 6000 years) which God declared for fallen flesh in Genesis 6. The last Jubilee is when glorified bodies are given, the redemption of our bodies.

 

[zeke37]

There are several resurrections:

1. Jesus
2. Those who rose when Jesus rose Matt 27:52
3. resurrection at catching away prior to judgment and wrath of the consecrated ones (REV 6 - 5th seal/rev 7/ 2 Thess 2, 1 Thess 4:13-18, Psalm 50, Isaiah 26:19-21, etc)
4. two witnesses are resurrected and raptured (rev 11)
5. those who refused to worship the beast (rev 20)
6. and resurrection for GWT judgment after millenium (REV 20)

perhaps we should focus on the yet future general resurrection...

#3 does not exist. imagination however good the intent is.

4,5 happen at the same time....a post trib event that you believe is pre trib.

6 is the second resurrection, after the 1000 years.


The tribulation has been going on for 2000 years, since Christ ascended and opened the first four seals of rev 6 which just so happen line up with Matt 24/Mark 13/Luke 21.

if the tribulation has been going on for 2000 years(which I agree) then that only leans towards my understanding with regards to the multitudes in Rev6 and 7....they came out of Great tribulation...and have washed their robes with the blood of the Lamb....for 2000 years.....

not for some fantasy pret rib group.

THE great tribulation as most people think of it, I consider Jacob's trouble...


All that remains is judgement and wrath which begins with the judgment ,according to the blood of Christ, of the body of Christ.

that does not make any sense Jen....the wrath is BEFORE the Judgement...we see the wrath of God in Rev16 and the Judgement after that, after the 1000 years.

the devil's wrath or tribulation (for there are 2) is allowed by God, but He is in control as you know. Satan's trib and God's trib are different...one is in the flesh body, and the other is in the spiritual body.

so do not fear (or revere) one who can kill your flesh, but fear (or revere)n the One that can kill your soul in the Lake of Fire.

After we are judged (instantly) and given our rewards, there is a remnant of Israel which are sealed and protected while God pours out judgment on the rest of the world.

you have no idea what you are talking about Jen, sorry.


Immediately after the tribulation of those days (2000 years = 2 days), then the earthquake, sun/moon/stars darken and wrath begins which is the exact order of seals 5-7 of Rev 6-8.

You did not describe seal 5 in that synopsis...

Seal #5 is giving of white robes which the bride wears, glorified bodies.

and they get that new body at flesh death...so they can exist in heaven and wait for their return to earth.(1Cor15)

Seal #6 is the earthquake, sun/moon/stars darkening which signals day of wrath and the stars fall (war in heaven, satan falls)

correct, which happens at the end, not the beginning. The seals are info only not events specific to a time-line...the trumps are, but not the seals..they are the info that is sealed into the minds of the 144,000 elect Christians.

Seal #7 is the trumpets and bowls.

exactly...how could it be all over and still have ALL the trumps and Vials-wrath of God to go????

it could not be, so your version of the 6th seal is incorrect....

because we see the same event happen in many prophetic scriptures...it is when He Comes back and LANDS on the earth, causing the earthquake and making a path to Jerusalem (Mt Zion)

The last trumpet is the last "Yobel" (which means loud blast of ram's horn or trumpet) or Jubilee of 120 Jubilees (120 x 50 = 6000 years) which God declared for fallen flesh in Genesis 6. The last Jubilee is when glorified bodies are given, the redemption of our bodies.

sure, but not pre trib, there will still be some time left before the last Yobel in your scenario....so again this proves your logic incorrect.



in His service
c

 

[HisdaughterJen]

There are several resurrections:

1. Jesus
2. Those who rose when Jesus rose Matt 27:52
3. resurrection at catching away prior to judgment and wrath of the consecrated ones (REV 6 - 5th seal/rev 7/ 2 Thess 2, 1 Thess 4:13-18, Psalm 50, Isaiah 26:19-21, etc)
4. two witnesses are resurrected and raptured (rev 11)
5. those who refused to worship the beast (rev 20)
6. and resurrection for GWT judgment after millenium (REV 20)

perhaps we should focus on the yet future general resurrection...

#3 does not exist. imagination however good the intent is.

4,5 happen at the same time....a post trib event that you believe is pre trib.

6 is the second resurrection, after the 1000 years.

So we don't agree on the idea that there is a resurrection and gathering to Christ of those who are consecrated by Jesus. I believe there is and you don't.

The tribulation has been going on for 2000 years, since Christ ascended and opened the first four seals of rev 6 which just so happen line up with Matt 24/Mark 13/Luke 21.

if the tribulation has been going on for 2000 years(which I agree) then that only leans towards my understanding with regards to the multitudes in Rev6 and 7....they came out of Great tribulation...and have washed their robes with the blood of the Lamb....for 2000 years.....

not for some fantasy pret rib group.

THE great tribulation as most people think of it, I consider Jacob's trouble...

Everyone, living or dead, that has washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb is a believer in Christ. We are the body of Christ. We are the bride of Christ. We get the same reward. At some point, God is going to say, "time's up" and gather those who have made a covenant with Him by sacrifice to Himself prior to judgment and wrath:

Psa 50:3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him. Psa 50:4 He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. Psa 50:5 Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.

All that remains is judgement and wrath which begins with the judgment ,according to the blood of Christ, of the body of Christ.

that does not make any sense Jen....the wrath is BEFORE the Judgement...we see the wrath of God in Rev16 and the Judgement after that, after the 1000 years.

the devil's wrath or tribulation (for there are 2) is allowed by God, but He is in control as you know. Satan's trib and God's trib are different...one is in the flesh body, and the other is in the spiritual body.

so do not fear (or revere) one who can kill your flesh, but fear (or revere)n the One that can kill your soul in the Lake of Fire.

How can wrath be before you are judged? That'd be like giving a person a prison sentence prior to a trial.

God allows the devil his 42 months as a time of testing:

Rev 2:10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.

After we are judged (instantly) and given our rewards, there is a remnant of Israel which are sealed and protected while God pours out judgment on the rest of the world.

you have no idea what you are talking about Jen, sorry.

Rather, I think it is you that has no idea what I'm talking about...I'm pretty clear on what I am talking about.

The gathering to Christ of those who are consecated is judgment on the body of Christ. We are judged by the blood of Christ. THE WHOLE BODY is judged...not just the part that is physically dead at the moment.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days (2000 years = 2 days), then the earthquake, sun/moon/stars darken and wrath begins which is the exact order of seals 5-7 of Rev 6-8.

You did not describe seal 5 in that synopsis...

Seal #5 is giving of white robes which the bride wears, glorified bodies.

and they get that new body at flesh death...so they can exist in heaven and wait for their return to earth.(1Cor15)

So the last trumpet of 1 Cor 15 happens for each individual upon their death? What's the point of resurrection, Zeke?

Seal #6 is the earthquake, sun/moon/stars darkening which signals day of wrath and the stars fall (war in heaven, satan falls)

correct, which happens at the end, not the beginning. The seals are info only not events specific to a time-line...the trumps are, but not the seals..they are the info that is sealed into the minds of the 144,000 elect Christians.

That makes no sense. The events of the 6th seal are mentioned elsewhere in scripture. The timing is confirmed by that other scripture.

Seal #7 is the trumpets and bowls.

exactly...how could it be all over and still have ALL the trumps and Vials-wrath of God to go????

it could not be, so your version of the 6th seal is incorrect....

because we see the same event happen in many prophetic scriptures...it is when He Comes back and LANDS on the earth, causing the earthquake and making a path to Jerusalem (Mt Zion)

The earthquake, sun/moon/stars darkening and "stars fall" to the earth (satan falls) happen at the beginning of those final years. The earthquake, thunder, lightning, and hail happen as Christ is returning.

The last trumpet is the last "Yobel" (which means loud blast of ram's horn or trumpet) or Jubilee of 120 Jubilees (120 x 50 = 6000 years) which God declared for fallen flesh in Genesis 6. The last Jubilee is when glorified bodies are given, the redemption of our bodies.

sure, but not pre trib, there will still be some time left before the last Yobel in your scenario....so again this proves your logic incorrect.

Yes, there's an entire time of judgment and wrath followed by the remainder of a millenium (1000 year Sabbath after 6000 years of fallen flesh).

Follow the symbolism of Exodus 19. God comes down "on the morning of the third day". The last trumpet (final Jubilee) is the final year prior(6000) to that "third day".
THAT is how there is a resurrection and change to glorified bodies prior to Christ's physical return on the morning of the third day.

 

[garry2]

Much I want to answer here, I will see if I have time tomorrow.
If not there will always be other posts.

 

[zeke37]

So we don't agree on the idea that there is a resurrection and gathering to Christ of those who are consecrated by Jesus. I believe there is and you don't.
Jen, how long have you and I been at this???

You should know by now that I certainly do believe that...just not the pret rib fictional version. Come on now please.


Everyone, living or dead, that has washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb is a believer in Christ. We are the body of Christ. We are the bride of Christ. We get the same reward. At some point, God is going to say, "time's up" and gather those who have made a covenant with Him by sacrifice to Himself prior to judgment and wrath:

correct...we disagree on when the wrath is...and we disagree on the timing of that Gathering...we agree on the gathering though. God's wrath is specifically pointed out in Rev16...not earlier. And the elect are Gathered to Christ in Rev11's 7th trump, seen after the parenthetical chapters of 12-13...in chapter 14.....on Mt Zion with Him.

the wrath follows.

Psa 50:3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him. Psa 50:4 He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. Psa 50:5 Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.

ya, not pre trib though


How can wrath be before you are judged? That'd be like giving a person a prison sentence prior to a trial.

when is the wrath...it is before Judgement, which follows the 1000 years

the sentence IS the 1000 years but no one is Judged yet...overcome at the end of that time, or be destroyed...that is the Judgement. result in the Lake of Fire...Satan, the fallen angels and the elect have already been Judged int he age before the foundations of this world(age). They are still used of God to accomplish His will.

God allows the devil his 42 months as a time of testing:

I agree...that is Satan's wrath, not God's, even if He allows it....it is His plan and as such has been referred to as His army etc...

it is His plan. God's wrath follows Satan's wrath as seen in the Vials of God's wrath...after Satan's bit

Rev 2:10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.

to the point of death is not dying...Death is Satan's name as well...and they are to be patient...wait....keep.

those are the last ten days before Messiah Comes with the dead in Christ to Gather them (elect alive) to Him. These are those spoken of in Luke 21 who are protected 100% to the very hairs on their head...they will not die or be removed early....they have a grand testimony to make against the fake Jesus....in those last ten days. God is going to speak through them, using His own Voice as He did in Acts2 and prophesied in Joel.


they MUST be alive in the flesh to be Gathered to Christ when He comes (post trib of course)



Rather, I think it is you that has no idea what I'm talking about...I'm pretty clear on what I am talking about.

No Jen...I know what you mean....I disagree with what you believe about the timing of the rapture/Gathering...although I do not believe that YOU know what I believe, even after all this time...

The gathering to Christ of those who are consecated is judgment on the body of Christ. We are judged by the blood of Christ. THE WHOLE BODY is judged...not just the part that is physically dead at the moment.

huh?

Judgement for the elect?....they are not judged for they are chosen for this specific role...chosen long ago in the age before the foundations of this world(age).

the Judgement happens 1000 years after the elect are Glorified.

the rest of the Christians need to be refined...so you may call it a judgement of sorts for them if you wish, but it is not THE Judgement...that happens later, after the 1000 years.


So the last trumpet of 1 Cor 15 happens for each individual upon their death? What's the point of resurrection, Zeke?

again...HUH? what? Pardon? Could you rephrase Jen, because I have no idea what you are talking about (in context) I did not say that.

a believer has that glorified body when they die and go to heaven...it is how they exist in heaven...

the scripture in 1Cor15 is speaking of the first general resurrection of those who are alive at His Coming...

the chapter details the two bodies, who has what where...

and tells us that one MUST have this body in heaven...

and then we learn of the mystery change that happens when Christ comes with those dead believers(clouds of witnesses),

He Gathers(caught up-up is not in the manuscripts..it is seized)- the elect alive at the time, to them

collectively(together)...

and they live on earth in their new bodies(air),
serving God...teaching the blind to see....for the 1000 years.

John was likewise in the spirit(body) on the Lord's Day when He received the Revelation of Jesus Christ. He was taken to another dimension...where Heaven is...and saw the events take place.





they who are not elect, are put to the test when Satan is released again at the end of the 1000 years...

will they overcome after being taught the truth(by the elect/dead in Christ) for 1000 years?...we shall see.


That makes no sense. The events of the 6th seal are mentioned elsewhere in scripture. The timing is confirmed by that other scripture.

your version of timing is not what I believe the bible's version of timing is...in fact, there is no supposition with my understanding, but with yours, it is totally speculative. stretching to fit your theology...very dangerous.

the 6th seal is repeated over and over again in scripture......

your problem is that you believe that you are gone before that, in the 5th seal...when that is not what the 5th seal refers to at all...they are UNDER the altar, not around It. What is UNDER the altar??? the earth is and those alive in the flesh are...if you are a believer, your old man is dead as you are dead to the world...alive in the flesh but dead to the world. These are the elect...

we see who is around the throne in other scriptures...Rev7:9 for one. These are the dead in Christ. The remnant.






The earthquake, sun/moon/stars darkening and "stars fall" to the earth (satan falls) happen at the beginning of those final years. The earthquake, thunder, lightning, and hail happen as Christ is returning.

Satan's attempts trickery at his arrival...and shows signs and wonders....only 1/3 as strong as Christ's true Coming...that is the symbolism of the first 4 trumps...a fake version of the real Coming...but I agree with what you wrote here.

Satan is the stars falling (and his angels)-cast from heaven to play the antiChrist/false prophet role.

Christ's Coming is that last earthquake....that does not disprove you or me on this matter. Whether anyone is leaving early has no bearing on the fact that Satan is coming at the beginning of the trib(Jacob's trouble)...it is Satan being Cast from heaven tot he earth, right? And it is WOE to them on earth in that time, right? For the devil has come down, right?


Yes, there's an entire time of judgment and wrath followed by the remainder of a millenium (1000 year Sabbath after 6000 years of fallen flesh).

well, I see the Judgement of God after the 1000 years, when the books are opened....your version is speculation, while I can outright prove that the Judgement is after the 1000 years from Rev20...

Follow the symbolism of Exodus 19. God comes down "on the morning of the third day". The last trumpet (final Jubilee) is the final year prior(6000) to that "third day".
THAT is how there is a resurrection and change to glorified bodies prior to Christ's physical return on the morning of the third day.

no, that is your fantasy....and does not fly...

I agree that there is some symbolism with 7 days = 7000 years...and I agree that there may be some merritt to 3 days = 3000 years...2000 being passed would allow for Christ to come back on the morning of the third day...but nothing there suggests pre trib...not at all.

in His service
c

 

[HisdaughterJen]

So we don't agree on the idea that there is a resurrection and gathering to Christ of those who are consecrated by Jesus. I believe there is and you don't.
Jen, how long have you and I been at this???

You should know by now that I certainly do believe that...just not the pret rib fictional version. Come on now please.


Everyone, living or dead, that has washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb is a believer in Christ. We are the body of Christ. We are the bride of Christ. We get the same reward. At some point, God is going to say, "time's up" and gather those who have made a covenant with Him by sacrifice to Himself prior to judgment and wrath:

correct...we disagree on when the wrath is...and we disagree on the timing of that Gathering...we agree on the gathering though. God's wrath is specifically pointed out in Rev16...not earlier. And the elect are Gathered to Christ in Rev11's 7th trump, seen after the parenthetical chapters of 12-13...in chapter 14.....on Mt Zion with Him.

the wrath follows.

Psa 50:3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him. Psa 50:4 He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. Psa 50:5 Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.

ya, not pre trib though


How can wrath be before you are judged? That'd be like giving a person a prison sentence prior to a trial.

when is the wrath...it is before Judgement, which follows the 1000 years

the sentence IS the 1000 years but no one is Judged yet...overcome at the end of that time, or be destroyed...that is the Judgement. result in the Lake of Fire...Satan, the fallen angels and the elect have already been Judged int he age before the foundations of this world(age). They are still used of God to accomplish His will.

God allows the devil his 42 months as a time of testing:

I agree...that is Satan's wrath, not God's, even if He allows it....it is His plan and as such has been referred to as His army etc...

it is His plan. God's wrath follows Satan's wrath as seen in the Vials of God's wrath...after Satan's bit

Rev 2:10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.

to the point of death is not dying...Death is Satan's name as well...and they are to be patient...wait....keep.

those are the last ten days before Messiah Comes with the dead in Christ to Gather them (elect alive) to Him. These are those spoken of in Luke 21 who are protected 100% to the very hairs on their head...they will not die or be removed early....they have a grand testimony to make against the fake Jesus....in those last ten days. God is going to speak through them, using His own Voice as He did in Acts2 and prophesied in Joel.


they MUST be alive in the flesh to be Gathered to Christ when He comes (post trib of course)



Rather, I think it is you that has no idea what I'm talking about...I'm pretty clear on what I am talking about.

No Jen...I know what you mean....I disagree with what you believe about the timing of the rapture/Gathering...although I do not believe that YOU know what I believe, even after all this time...

The gathering to Christ of those who are consecated is judgment on the body of Christ. We are judged by the blood of Christ. THE WHOLE BODY is judged...not just the part that is physically dead at the moment.

huh?

Judgement for the elect?....they are not judged for they are chosen for this specific role...chosen long ago in the age before the foundations of this world(age).

the Judgement happens 1000 years after the elect are Glorified.

the rest of the Christians need to be refined...so you may call it a judgement of sorts for them if you wish, but it is not THE Judgement...that happens later, after the 1000 years.


So the last trumpet of 1 Cor 15 happens for each individual upon their death? What's the point of resurrection, Zeke?

again...HUH? what? Pardon? Could you rephrase Jen, because I have no idea what you are talking about (in context) I did not say that.

a believer has that glorified body when they die and go to heaven...it is how they exist in heaven...

the scripture in 1Cor15 is speaking of the first general resurrection of those who are alive at His Coming...

the chapter details the two bodies, who has what where...

and tells us that one MUST have this body in heaven...

and then we learn of the mystery change that happens when Christ comes with those dead believers(clouds of witnesses),

He Gathers(caught up-up is not in the manuscripts..it is seized)- the elect alive at the time, to them

collectively(together)...

and they live on earth in their new bodies(air),
serving God...teaching the blind to see....for the 1000 years.

John was likewise in the spirit(body) on the Lord's Day when He received the Revelation of Jesus Christ. He was taken to another dimension...where Heaven is...and saw the events take place.





they who are not elect, are put to the test when Satan is released again at the end of the 1000 years...

will they overcome after being taught the truth(by the elect/dead in Christ) for 1000 years?...we shall see.


That makes no sense. The events of the 6th seal are mentioned elsewhere in scripture. The timing is confirmed by that other scripture.

your version of timing is not what I believe the bible's version of timing is...in fact, there is no supposition with my understanding, but with yours, it is totally speculative. stretching to fit your theology...very dangerous.

the 6th seal is repeated over and over again in scripture......

your problem is that you believe that you are gone before that, in the 5th seal...when that is not what the 5th seal refers to at all...they are UNDER the altar, not around It. What is UNDER the altar??? the earth is and those alive in the flesh are...if you are a believer, your old man is dead as you are dead to the world...alive in the flesh but dead to the world. These are the elect...

we see who is around the throne in other scriptures...Rev7:9 for one. These are the dead in Christ. The remnant.






The earthquake, sun/moon/stars darkening and "stars fall" to the earth (satan falls) happen at the beginning of those final years. The earthquake, thunder, lightning, and hail happen as Christ is returning.

Satan's attempts trickery at his arrival...and shows signs and wonders....only 1/3 as strong as Christ's true Coming...that is the symbolism of the first 4 trumps...a fake version of the real Coming...but I agree with what you wrote here.

Satan is the stars falling (and his angels)-cast from heaven to play the antiChrist/false prophet role.

Christ's Coming is that last earthquake....that does not disprove you or me on this matter. Whether anyone is leaving early has no bearing on the fact that Satan is coming at the beginning of the trib(Jacob's trouble)...it is Satan being Cast from heaven tot he earth, right? And it is WOE to them on earth in that time, right? For the devil has come down, right?


Yes, there's an entire time of judgment and wrath followed by the remainder of a millenium (1000 year Sabbath after 6000 years of fallen flesh).

well, I see the Judgement of God after the 1000 years, when the books are opened....your version is speculation, while I can outright prove that the Judgement is after the 1000 years from Rev20...

Follow the symbolism of Exodus 19. God comes down "on the morning of the third day". The last trumpet (final Jubilee) is the final year prior(6000) to that "third day".
THAT is how there is a resurrection and change to glorified bodies prior to Christ's physical return on the morning of the third day.

no, that is your fantasy....and does not fly...

I agree that there is some symbolism with 7 days = 7000 years...and I agree that there may be some merritt to 3 days = 3000 years...2000 being passed would allow for Christ to come back on the morning of the third day...but nothing there suggests pre trib...not at all.

in His service
c

Zeke,

Judgment Day is the millenium. It begins with judgment, there's judgment (rule with iron rod) throughout, and there's the GWT judgment afterwards.

The "catching away" is a judgment on believers. (Judgment is not always bad, you know) We are judged by the blood of Christ.


Those who are given "white robes" in the 5th seal of Rev 6 prior to the beginning of wrath in the 6th seal are the bride of Christ. They are "under the altar" in the 5th seal and then seen in heaven standing before the throne and the Lamb prior to the 7th seal. Somehow there location went from "under the altar" to "before the throne" around the time of the giving of white robes because their location changed after they were given those robes.


There is no wrath of satan. There is only testing allowed by God. It just so happens that involves allowing the devil his 42 months to scatter and crush the people of God.


The thing that proves "pre-trib" is the promise of being gathered before wrath. Also, the last Jubilee (last trumpet) of 6000 years would be year 6000 which is prior to the "morning of the third day" which would start at year 6001. That means the change to glorified bodies happens at or prior to the morning of the 3rd day when Christ physically returns.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

What does it mean when Paul says that the living will not precede to the lord, till the dead in Christ are raised?
Explaining the rapture, paul tells us that the dead in Christ will be raised on his decent from heaven and then the living ones will be caught up with them then.
This is to say that no living saint will be caught away to the lord, before the day of ressurection.

Are we now to say that the ressurection happens before the tribulation.
No way, because Jesus himself said that "after the trib of those days" the stars will fall, the sun doesnt shine, the moon goes out and the heavens will be dissolved with the shakin...and then the son of man will appear..when you see this ...look up , because your Redemption draweth near....






This redemption, is the redemption of our bodies ==ressurection---glorification.

Pauls teaching you that he speaks of the lords teaching--according to the word of the lord.
Quote:



Matt 24--mk 13 --lk 21--jn 14 all tell us of Jesus promise/word to come back and get us.

Peter refers to that promise of the lords, and whats going on in the heavens;




Quote:
Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts,
4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming?

Quote:
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.


10

Sounds exactly like what Jesus said about his promise.
Peter knows that Paul contributes wisdom in all of his letters, about this promise the lord made;

Quote:


There is that day of eternity again.
Jesus said that he would raise us the last day.
John said that when he appears we will be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

Job says;

Quote:
But man dies and lies prostrate.
Man expires, and where is he?
11 "As water evaporates from the sea,
And a river becomes parched and dried up,

12 So man lies down and does not rise.
Until the heavens are no longer,
He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.



13 "Oh that You would hide me in Sheol,
That You would conceal me until Your wrath returns to You,
That You would set a limit for me and remember me!


14 "If a man dies, will he live again?
All the days of my struggle I will wait
Until my change comes.



Remember that the living cannot precede to the lord until this day of Eternity, when the dead in Christ rise first

Very Excellentatious Post Jeff. Its deep.

 

[garry2]

zeke37 says about the following verses:
No one is going up we are gathered here and remain here on earth.
1.Thessalonians 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I have said before that it looks like zeke37 disregards scripture that goes against his beliefs, and that he in fact twists scripture around to make it in line with his beleifs, and he gives no evidence to one for changing that opinion. On the contrary he is so obvious that he dosn't seem to care.
Another example below about death being satans name in a particular verse.

zeke37:
#3 does not exist. imagination however good the intent is.

What about all the verses Jen posted do they not matter to you as well?

you have no idea what you are talking about Jen, sorry.

Did seke37 say that!

Rev 2:10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.

to the point of death is not dying...Death is Satan's name as well...and they are to be patient...wait....keep.

You are saying here, death is satans name so the last part of this verse should read:

"Be faithful, even to the point of satan, and I will give you the crown of life."

Does that really make sense to you or are you twisting scripture to show that saints don't die during the trib? which is what you beleive.

 

[zeke37]

Zeke,

Jen,

Judgment Day is the millenium. It begins with judgment, there's judgment (rule with iron rod) throughout, and there's the GWT judgment afterwards.

I disagree that the Judgement is the entire Millennium...but to each their own I guess...THE Judgement of God is after the Millennium...the wrath of God is the Millennium.

The "catching away" is a judgment on believers. (Judgment is not always bad, you know) We are judged by the blood of Christ.

No Jen, the ones that are Gathered/Seized to Christ at His Coming/Appearing are the elect alive on earth at that time...those that were chosen before the foundations of the world...they were judged then and are already over comers...so NO. Rewards....yes...Judgement, NO! Mar13:27


Those who are given "white robes" in the 5th seal of Rev 6 prior to the beginning of wrath in the 6th seal are the bride of Christ.

they are part of the Bride of Christ...because they are the dead in Christ...the remnant of elect that have already died in the flesh...and they have robes on just as those in Rev7 do....so they are washed by Christ's blood...but these are under the altar, as opposed to around it in Rev7...both the elect alive and the elect dead are spoken of. The first fruits...There is no pre trib. It is a scam...Mat3:7, Luk3:7, Rom 5:3, Rom8:35, Rom12:12, 1Cor4:5, 1Thes3:4, Rev2:9, Rev7:14(out of..through...often of completion),

Compare 1Cor6:15 with 1Thes5:3..that is what pre trib does...

They are "under the altar" in the 5th seal and then seen in heaven standing before the throne and the Lamb prior to the 7th seal. Somehow there location went from "under the altar" to "before the throne" around the time of the giving of white robes because their location changed after they were given those robes.

no Jen, those are two different groups...they comprise the ones who rule and reign with Christ...the first fruits...those that have died in Him for the last 2000 years...and those alive at Christ's Coming. think about it...there just is no pre trib rapture...it is a trick of the devil...see the above scriptures


There is no wrath of satan. There is only testing allowed by God. It just so happens that involves allowing the devil his 42 months to scatter and crush the people of God.

Satan's tribulation/wrath (which I agree is allowed by God) is called the time of Jacob's trouble...there is a tribulation after that time, which is God's Millennium/God's wrath. The Millennium is the DAY of wrath, and after that Millennium, is God's Judgement. Luk21:23, Rom2:5, Eph5:6, Heb3:11, Rev12:12, Rev14:8, Rev18:3,

Satan has wrath as well as God...of course Satan's wrath is used by God in His plan....and God has His own wrath which is the day of the Lord. Read the scriptures above and see what you think.


The thing that proves "pre-trib" is the promise of being gathered before wrath.

and that wrath is post trib, in the day of the Lord.

Also, the last Jubilee (last trumpet) of 6000 years would be year 6000 which is prior to the "morning of the third day" which would start at year 6001. That means the change to glorified bodies happens at or prior to the morning of the 3rd day when Christ physically returns.

says you....it actually happens AT His arrival, not before.


in His service
c

 

[garry2]

Hisdaughterjen:

Those who are given "white robes" in the 5th seal of Rev 6 prior to the beginning of wrath in the 6th seal are the bride of Christ.

zeke37:

Compare 1Cor6:15 with 1Thes5:3..that is what pre trib does...

1, Corinthians 6
15 15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.

This has nothing at all to do with pre trib.
read on a few verses more and you will see that this and other verses are pointing to the fact that those in Christ are one Spirit with Him.

1.Thessalonians 5
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Once again nothing to do with pre trib.

 

[tnp2140]

Once you really study the second coming and not accept what people tell you, it's easy to see the Rapture is not biblical.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Once you really study the second coming and not accept what people tell you, it's easy to see the Rapture is not biblical.

The catching away/gathering to Christ or "rapture" is indeed Biblical:

1Th 4:13 Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope.
1Th 4:14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
1Th 4:15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Th 4:17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
1Th 4:18 Therefore encourage each other with these words.


It is the timing that is disputed.

 

[garry2]

Once you really study the second coming and not accept what people tell you, it's easy to see the Rapture is not biblical.

 

[craig_on_fire]

What does it mean when Paul says that the living will not precede to the lord, till the dead in Christ are raised?
Explaining the rapture, paul tells us that the dead in Christ will be raised on his decent from heaven and then the living ones will be caught up with them then.
This is to say that no living saint will be caught away to the lord, before the day of ressurection.

Are we now to say that the ressurection happens before the tribulation.
No way, because Jesus himself said that "after the trib of those days" the stars will fall, the sun doesnt shine, the moon goes out and the heavens will be dissolved with the shakin...and then the son of man will appear..when you see this ...look up , because your Redemption draweth near....






This redemption, is the redemption of our bodies ==ressurection---glorification.

Pauls teaching you that he speaks of the lords teaching--according to the word of the lord.
Quote:



Matt 24--mk 13 --lk 21--jn 14 all tell us of Jesus promise/word to come back and get us.

Peter refers to that promise of the lords, and whats going on in the heavens;




Quote:
Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts,
4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming?

Quote:
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.


10

Sounds exactly like what Jesus said about his promise.
Peter knows that Paul contributes wisdom in all of his letters, about this promise the lord made;

Quote:


There is that day of eternity again.
Jesus said that he would raise us the last day.
John said that when he appears we will be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

Job says;

Quote:
But man dies and lies prostrate.
Man expires, and where is he?
11 "As water evaporates from the sea,
And a river becomes parched and dried up,

12 So man lies down and does not rise.
Until the heavens are no longer,
He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.



13 "Oh that You would hide me in Sheol,
That You would conceal me until Your wrath returns to You,
That You would set a limit for me and remember me!


14 "If a man dies, will he live again?
All the days of my struggle I will wait
Until my change comes.



Remember that the living cannot precede to the lord until this day of Eternity, when the dead in Christ rise first

Well as I believe that life on earth IS a tribulation and not a separate event I would presume that Paul is talking about the fact that the already dead (martyrs, faithful ones) will be transformed and resurrected before the transformation into new earthly bodies of those who are living... After the royal welcome has been giving to our Lord (caught up in the air with him) We give him the royal escort so to speak back to the New Heavens and Earth. Not away from it.

 

[zeke37]

caught up = seized
air = spiritual breath of life body/celestial that all believers get in heaven or when Christ returns...1Cor15

clouds = cloud of believers...a large multitude as Heb12 describes.

I love the Greek text original meaning.

up is not in th manuscripts and He is Coming here...forever and ever.

 

[garry2]

caught up = seized

Whether you use the word seized or caught does not matter, they are very similar and does not take away from the truth of the bride being seized or caught up to Christ.

air = spiritual breath of life body/celestial that all believers get in heaven or when Christ returns...1Cor15

But 1. thessalonians 17 is not talking about spiritual breath, it's talking about being caught up to christ in the clouds, which is in the air.

clouds = cloud of believers...a large multitude as Heb12 describes.

But 1. Thessalonians 17 is not talking about a cloud of beleivers, it's talking about the bride being caught up to the clouds where those who were dead in Christ already are, and to join Christ there.

I love the Greek text original meaning.

The greek for clouds in 1. Thessalonians 17 is literally clouds.
The greek for air in 1.Thessalonians 17 is literally air.

up is not in th manuscripts and He is Coming here...forever and ever.

I would say that the clouds are up and in the air makes it perfectly clear that these are just that clouds.


1.Thessalonians 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

These verses are literal, very plain and clear.