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seeking.IAM

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There is a huge difference in church discipline however...

Granted, Paul, but what most people fail to understand is the diversity of The Episcopal Church. Many of the things to which you allude have been delegated by TEC to Bishops, Priests, & congregations. We are a big tent church. Disciplined conservatives still reside in TEC, including Bishops, Priests, and laity who differ on positions of the national church and prohibit certain practices within their diocese. So I stand by my position that there are those of us that are more likely to turn to Orthodoxy than the Church of Rome if our church came to an end as another poster predicted.

On the other hand while we may be smaller and divided, I think the death of Anglicanism in the United States is more unlikely than suggested. We remain steadfast.
 
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All4Christ

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<Staff Edit>[/QUOTE]

Please remember that this is Traditional Theology. The SoP rules apply.

Traditionally in the church - from apostolic times - one set of beliefs applied. Nowhere in scriptures was individual interpretation encouraged. Besides - how can one be in communion with a church that have differing beliefs? Especially core beliefs?

Also, your quote about the thief is totally irrelevant. He became a believer in Christ right before death - no where does he profess a different belief about women, and no where was he taught the Theology of the church.

I could post more scripture, but we are spending time with in-laws this afternoon.

If you want to post here, respect for the opinions and practices of Traditional Churches is required (or at least don't write things trying to say Traditional practices are unbiblical).
 
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Paidiske

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I think unification of any formal sort is unlikely; we hold positions which are too different, with integrity, and an umbrella big enough to shelter them all would be problematic for many. I no more want to formally adopt trusting in Papal infallibility and saying rosaries than I expect Catholics to want to declare my orders valid. But we could do much more to cooperate than we currently do, even with the boundaries that we have.

That is the great gulf that divides, isn't it? How can we welcome one another when large parts of both groups believe that a celebration by a woman is not valid to consecrate the gifts? I, myself, will not partake of the communion if it is celebrated by a woman. Perhaps I am an intransigent [person], but so are 100 generations of church fathers.

I don't think it's a matter of being an intransigent... person. People differ on this and, provided we can do so without being nasty about it, I think that's okay.

For myself personally, if my ordination was all that stood between us and church unity, I would renounce it and live out my days as a lay woman. (How better to live out a vocation to serve the church than by fostering unity?)

But women's ordination isn't the only issue, by a very long shot, and in the meantime we have an Anglican church which does ordain women and which is screaming for good people to lead and teach and serve. And I don't believe that God has abandoned any part of His church where people sincerely seek Him. So I have taken up the calling He put in front of me, in trust that He will work through my own faltering efforts to bless his people.

for that matter many Episcopal clergy will communicate the unbaptized,

That gets raised eyebrows from me. Is that really common in America? It would not be the done thing here.
 
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Philip_B

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Mathew Ayairga when confronted by his assailants as to his faith, was clearly touched by God and moved by the faith he saw expressed by the others and is said to have said 'their God is My God'.

None of that says that faith, doctrine, theology, are not important - just that they are not everything. Circumstance and situation are clearly relevant.

Praise be to God who meets us where we are and leads us home.

We give thanks to God for the faithful witness of martyrs in every age, and especially for the witness of the Coptic Martyrs on the beach in Libya.

Shine as a light in the world to the glory of God the Father
 
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prodromos

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<Staff Edit>
2 Cor 13:11
Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.
 
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All4Christ

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<Staff Edit>

This thread is in Traditional Theology subforum. The Statement of Purpose rules apply. This isn't about my rules - it's about the rules of the forum.
 
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Philip_B

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As the original poster, I do believe that this is correctly located within Traditional Theology. Both the Anglican Church and the Roman Catholic Church adhere to the Nicene Creed, the Historic Councils, The Canon of Scripture (with some variance), the Sacraments of the Holy Eucharist and Holy Baptism, the Historic Episcopate, The threefold orders of sacred ministry, to name a few.

I have no problem with scripture informing this discussion, however it need not be the only source.

The English Church and the Roman Church have history, When Augustine arrived in England, he needed to spend a good deal of time negotiating with the Celtic Christians about the date of Easter. When William of Normandy arrived in 1066, carrying to Popes Banners, and removed from office the English Bishops, including Stigand Archbishop of Canterbury replacing him with Lanfranc Abbott of Bec in Normandy. For whatever of a number of reasons there were a number of Acts of the English Parliament between 1532 and 1537 which cut the connection between Rome and Canterbury and probably the Act of Supremacy in 1534 is the most easily seen pivotal point in this space. This in many senses was more like and ecclesiastical Brexit than a continental reformation, though it is clear that many of those ideas help determine some of the polity of the newly autocephalus church. The long and the short of it is that we have history.

As an Anglican I am not sure that we just want to 'move in with Mum again with our tail between our legs', however both Churches have developed in good and bad ways since the 16th century, however both our Leaders, seem to be acknowledging that we should be less divided. Non-one is being asked to give up anything at the moment, but perhaps to focus on the things that bind us rather than the things that keep us apart.

To me, in Christ, that seems like a good thing.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Some posts are goading and otherwise opposed to the both the rules of conduct for the Traditional Theolgy subforum, as well as opposed to its purpose.

Please take a moment to read the Traditional Theology Statement of Purpose AND abide by it if you wish to continue posting here.

Thank you.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Well, we just got new books, and it was sent down from the Archdiocese. That much I know. I'm in the choir, so I haven't followed them for the Liturgy.

The blogger is under a different Archdiocese from me, but the same Patriarchate, of course.

Some of the changes are the form we already use. Some WOULD represent changes to our Divine Liturgy. There have been some minor changes I noticed already. (The priest says "May the Lord remember all of US in His Kingdom" instead of the formerly "Msy the Lord remember all of you in His Kingdom" toward the end of the Great Entrance. That's about the level of change I've seen. We have a few more pre-Communion prayers and the language has changed by a word or two here or there.) But much of the "changes" represent the way we celebrate now.

We never translate Theotokos, even if the rest is in English. But we DO say "Lord have mercy".

As far as what is binding, etc. I do not know. I would state with almost perfect certainty though that whatever the Bishop advises, our priest will certainly do.

So be it.
 
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Paul Yohannan

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Personally I'm in the OCA - and the other option I'm considering if we move is a ROCOR...which in and of itself would have its own liturgical language challenges for me. That said - the ROCOR is Orthodox, and I'm thankful there is a church around that are where we may move. I personally am a very big proponent for liturgies in the vernacular of the people - so I may have particularly strong feelings. I get it that there are some phrases that don't translate well into English...but Lord have Mercy? @~Anastasia~ , I'd be interested to hear what happens in your parish - and if the changes are implemented.

The liturgical changes in question, to be clear, are specific to the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of North America.

OCA has a fair number of liturgical uses due to it encompassing a minority of the Russian languages parishes, and about half of the Bulgarian church in North America, and half of the Romanians; Romanian usage tends to be closer to Greek, Bulgarian, closer to Russian (the Bulgarian pronunciation of Church Slavonic sounds much more like the Russian than the Ukrainian pronunciation, e.g. Gospodi instead of Hospodi); the Bulgarians however use the Revised Julian Calendar. Also if memory serves, the Albanian Orthodox in America under Archbishop Fan Noli, who for a time due to the brutal repression of all religion under the communist regime of Enver Hoxha (who strove to create the world's first completely atheist state by making religion illegal), represented more or less the entirety of the visible Albanian church, are part of the OCA. So the OCA has parishes on the Old Calendar, parishes on the New Calendar, parishes with traditional language, parishes with contemporary language, and what I consider to be the very strange liturgical experiment that is the New Skete monastery (the monks of New Skete published a programme for liturgical renewal in the journal of the Faith and Order commission of the World Council of Churches in the late 90s, and I did write a point by point criticism of it which if you wish I can link to, as I took exception to most, but not all, of what they proposed, and I also took exception to the venue used to promote it; the timing was unfortunate as it coincided with the extremely conservative Church of Georgia withdrawing from the WCC, and it struck me as the sort of thing that fuels the fires the Old Calendarist schism, not reconciliation-oriented).

I would also lament several OCA mission parishes have problems with liturgical music for various reasons, including cradle singers from different ethnic backgrounds and thus different musical traditions, and some fairly weak arrangements of the service, some of which are a bit too watered down in an effort to promote congregational singing.

The OCA does benefit from the legacy of Fr. Alexander Schmemann of eternal memory, who was one of the most brilliant liturgical minds of the 20th century; as a scholar of the liturgy, I think only Dom Gregory Dix of the Anglican Benedictines, and Robert Taft, the RC scholar who wrote "A Short History of the Byzantine Rite," are comparable, although the actual program for liturgical reform Schmemann had in mind I only agree with in part; I disagree with roughly half of what he wanted to do, and I suspect you would as well.

ROCOR has a formidable repuation for severity, but in my experience this is undeserved; I have consistently found their clergy to be gentle and loving, and in terms of liturgics, their jurisdiction is the crown jewell of Eastern Orthodoxy in North America, at least as far as the Slavonic tradition is concerned (for the Hellenic, the equivalent would be the very excellent canonical monasteries and convents within GoArch that are under the spiritual patronage of Elder Ephrem, who like ROCOR has a formidable reputation but is in my experience kind and gentle; also, Holy Transfiguration Monastery founded by Elder Ephrem's spiritual brother the former elder Panteleimon; HTM is Old Calendarist and broke ties with ROCOR in the 1980s as the latter began to investigate a sex scandal; both Elder Ephraim and former Elder Panteleimon are spiritual children of St. Joseph the Hesychast, but lamentably for several years Elder Panteleimon succumbed to the passions regarding novice monks, but fortunately has resigned and committed himself to repentance, so that's good, but HTM and HOCNA, the Old Calendar Greek parishes associated with it that used to be associated with ROCOR, are still isolated; however, Holy Transfiguration Monastery publishes the most widely used Pentecostarion and other texts arranged for Byzantine chant, and unlike Elder Ephrem's monasteries, uses the Julian Calendar, so in some respects one might experience something closer to Mount Athos or St. Catharine's.

The amusing thing about ROCOR's liturgical excellence is that it is largely accidental; everyone in ROCOR is committed to liturgical maximalism, but for the bishops this has meant promoting Kievan Chant, Znamenny Chant and other ancient Russian forms amenable to increased comgregational use, and discouraging the use of the Obikhod (the 19th century common arrangements), but the more Russian parishes, which are largely ethnic and expatriate, have zealously clung to the Obikhod and various settings of the liturgy by prominent composers, as a connection to Mother Russia, and the result is a very pleasing, if delicate, balance.

ROCOR also has the Church of the Nativity, which is the most prolific canonical Old Rite parish in North America (formerly priestless, they became equivalent to the Edinovertsie of Russia), and hanging by a thread, a Western Rite which took the bold decision of attempting to revert to the Western Rite liturgy as it existed in England under the Saxons before the Norman invasion, by reconstructing a Roman Rite from various historical sources. Hieromonk Aidan Kimmel did much of this work, but he has since moved on to the Eastern Rite, and I would note his Eastern Rite liturgikons are some of the best I've seen. His fantastic website Occidentalis is defunct, but still accessible via the Internet Archive, and I have it in mind to try to get him to restore it, as it had an unrivalled collection of resources.

~

I think in the long run the Orthodox-Catholic-Anglican reconciliation will look something like what the ROCOR Western Rite Vicarate was aiming for prior to the administrative scandal involving Archbishop Jerome Shaw and Fr. Anthony Bondi, which nearly killed the Western Rite (and which might yet lead to its eventual dissipation in ROCOR).

Specifically, a move towards a liturgical space characterized by an iconographic rood screen or iconostasis firmly separating the chancel or altar from the nave, and fewer pews in the nave, allowing the laity greater freedom of movement during the liturgy; the faithful will ne more at liberty to move about to light candles or venerate icons and relics, and less committed to the synchronized movements and gestures that characterize the unison "exterior participation" of Vatican II and the Novus Ordo; this will give way to a much less organized interior participation, but conversely, certain ancient forms of chant and plainsong that can lend themselves to varying levels of congregational participation will become the norm.

I think, and pray, that in the coming decades our churches will be darker, quieter, free from sound systems and relying purely on acoustics, with much more freedom of movement, much more iconography, and much more attention directed to liturgical beauty, of the vestments, of the floral arrangements in the nave, of the liturgical architecture, the lighting, preferrably by candle or oil lamp (with electrical lighting minimized); much more attention to detail with liturgical gospel books, and much more of an emphasis on liturgical music.

I did disagree with the ROCOR WRV approach to liturgics in one key respect, that being their opposition to the organ. Organ music is foreign to most of the Byzantine Rite in the prevailing monastic use, but the Hagia Sophia had one, in the Narthex (although we dont really know what it was for, but those who claim it had a purely secular function I find unpersuasive, given that the narthex was a sacred space and some services were celebrated within it, and also, we do not know whether or not the organ was audible in the nave); organ music is also integral to the Greek Orthodox music of the Ionian Islands, and to much of their music of the diaspora; organs are not anti-Orthodox in my opinion, and I believe they are also certainly without a doubt a native and integral part of English church music, and the works of Herbert Howells, Healey Willan and other Anglican composers strike me as conducive to piety; that being said, I would not want organ music to intrude into the Byzantine chant of Elder Ephrem's monasteries, or into the Slavonic Orthodox / Ruthenian / Ukrainian Catholic liturgical tradition, where they are not needed and are not an authentic part of the liturgical patrimony.

Their use however in those rites that have them is in my opinion firmly condoned by no less an authority than Psalm 150. In like manner, the cymbals used in the Coptic Church, and other instruments found in the Ethiopian church, in my own Oriental Orthodox tradition. I would note the Armenian church has used organs for some time, and to good effect; a rubric from 1920 authorizes their use in Syriac Orthodoxy, but I believe this rubric had in mind pipe organs; where it is invoked, it is generally used to authorize electronic keyboards and frankly I think our music and that of the Assyrian Church of the East sounds better a capella. The Syriac and Chaldean Catholics use cymbals, and I believe we used them prior to the Sayfo (our word for the Turkish genocide against Christians of all ethnicities in 1915).

~

I apologize for the meandering nature of this post, but my goal was both to answer your concerns as a member of the OCA, and also reflect on how I hope the liturgy of ecumenical reconciliation between the Orthodox, the Anglicans and the Catholics will take shape.
 
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Paidiske

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When it comes to ecumenical liturgy, I think at this point we would be best served to focus on those liturgies we can share - morning and evening prayer, for example - and creating common forms of those, rather than focussing on, say, Eucharistic liturgies, which I think we are a very long way from sharing.
 
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Paul Yohannan

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Granted, Paul, but what most people fail to understand is the diversity of The Episcopal Church. Many of the things to which you allude have been delegated by TEC to Bishops, Priests, & congregations. We are a big tent church. Disciplined conservatives still reside in TEC, including Bishops, Priests, and laity who differ on positions of the national church and prohibit certain practices within their diocese. So I stand by my position that there are those of us that are more likely to turn to Orthodoxy than the Church of Rome if our church came to an end as another poster predicted.

On the other hand while we may be smaller and divided, I think the death of Anglicanism in the United States is more unlikely than suggested. We remain steadfast.

The main crux of the matter is this: the Orthodox believe you are what you are in communion with, and the Latitudinarian or Pietist idea of a "Broad Church" is fundamentally at odds with our understanding of ecclesiology.

This remains the biggest hurdle to be overcome in Anglican-Orthodox relations; indeed I believe it was St. Rafael of Brooklyn's bewilderment on discovering the low church Episcopal parishes that were so fundamentally at odds witn the Anglo Catholic set he had associated with, that caused the breakdown in Orthodox-Episcopalian relations in 1915.

This does not mean that absolute liturgical or practical unity is a tenet of Eastern Orthodoxy, although a few, such as the Russian Old Believers, have tried to make it such. In Oriental Orthodoxy, there is a great diversity of liturgical rites and faith traditions.

But, no one would dare venerate Nestorius, or deny St. Mary is the Theotokos, or smash icons, or to be very direct and face the most pressing contemporary issues, ordain a woman to the priesthood or bless a homosexual union; if they did, they would find themselves quite outside the pale and rejected by the other Oriental churches (and this has in fact happened; consider the Syriac Orthodox response to the revelation of gross simony on the part of Rene Vilatte, who had been previously ordained by the Indian church).

So clearly, this is an ecclesiological issue we have to work through, but I believe it is one we can and should strive to work through; we are obliged to unity and to the healing of schisms, and there is enough in common between us for us to not want to invoke Galatians 1:8. Particularly in light of the increasing persecution Christians now face.

~

As an aside, it is a sad truth that persecution reduces liturgical and practical diversity, but it could well have the positive effect of increasing dogmatic unity in the interest of solidarity and a common ecclesiology.
 
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Paul Yohannan

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When it comes to ecumenical liturgy, I think at this point we would be best served to focus on those liturgies we can share - morning and evening prayer, for example - and creating common forms of those, rather than focussing on, say, Eucharistic liturgies, which I think we are a very long way from sharing.

On this point I disagree; I don't believe we are at a point where we can consider creating any common liturgical forms, yet. Rather, in my post I merely expressed a hope as to how our liturgics might converge.

I am actively opposed to any attempt to standardize the divine office between the Roman Catholics, the Anglicans amd the Orthodox, because I believe this is unneccessary and would result in the destruction of our precious liturgical heritage. In fact, I favour the opposite: restoring the disused Cathedral Typikon in the Byzantine Rite, preserving endangered regional variants of the Syriac Orthodox liturgy, and in terms of the Roman Catholic liturgy, I am an enthusiastic supporter of the Pontifical Commission "Ecclesia Dei" which has successfully reintroduced the old Tridentine Rite, and beyond that, emerging efforts in the US and Europe to preserve and restore to regular use certain monastic rites which nearly became extinct, for example, the the Carmelite and Dominican Rites, which feature their own Divine Office amd Eucharistic liturgy (the Dominican Rite is now routinely served in the East Bay of San Francisco and nearby locales, and in Wyoming, a thriving monastery is being forged by young men committed to restoring the disused Carmelite liturgy, which has its own idiosyncratic divine office and Eucharistic liturgy); I am keen to see the Ambrosian Rite of Milan preserved, particularly in its pre-1969 form, and especially the ancient Mozarabic Rite of Toledo, which one wishes could be restored to the seven or so parishes which used it into the 19th century, as opposed to the present situation where it is confined as it were to one particular chapel in the vast cathedral of that city; I am also greatly concerned for the survival of the critically endangered Rite of Braga.

I do not believe ecclesial unity requires liturgical conformity; on the contrary, I think each of the ancient liturgical rites is uniquely precious and beautiful.

What I would like to see would be, for use in metropolitan churches in North America, the Far East, Australia and elsewhere without much of an indigenous liturgical patrimomy, a concerted effort to make available the richness of these ancient rites in an accessible form (which might or might not entail the use of a liturgical or vernacular service or some mixture thereof).
 
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Paul Yohannan

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That gets raised eyebrows from me. Is that really common in America? It would not be the done thing here.

It is imcreasingly common, and it is very comtroversial; see the blog Creedal Christian (http://creedalchristian.blogspot.com) which posted several articles about this when it was a new phenomenon.

By the way, I recently came across a C of E parish website which implied communion being available for the unbaptized; I think it was one of the parishes in the City of London that has a midweek Eucharist; either that or it was in the Midlands. I realize that covers a rather broad territority; if you wish I shall pour over my browsing history and try to find it.
 
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Paidiske

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No, don't feel obliged to go through your history; I'll take your word for it.

I find that quite inappropriate, but hope that it is confined to one or two rogue priests or areas and will in time fade out again.
 
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Paul Yohannan

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No, don't feel obliged to go through your history; I'll take your word for it.

I find that quite inappropriate, but hope that it is confined to one or two rogue priests or areas and will in time fade out again.

As do I. But this has been the trend, I lament to say, and its quite prevalent in large parts of the US unfortunately.

And that obviously is a huge impediment to ecumenical reconciliation, perhaps the biggest one yet, because if we communicate without baptising we have ignored the Great Commandment and also the dire warnings of 1 Corinthians 11:27-34.

If the Eucharist is a real Eucharist, and not just a memorial, but something that can kill, if that is what St. Paul meant, or even if it is possibly what he meant, I argue we have a moral obligation to put at least some kind of warning or guard rail around the Chalice.

I am not a great admirer of Calvin, Knox, or Cranmer, by any means, but to their great credit, they did this, moreso than Luther I think, even as they increased the frequency of communion among the laity. Recall the exhortations in the BCP regarding the Eucharist and even the Prayer of Humble Access, et cetera.
 
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