We need to stop this....

[Avonia]

First, what prophet wasn't human.

Second, Are we speaking of seer's as in Daniel?

-b

Yes, we are all seers too. Some don't see very far - and some see quite far. This kind of sight is both given and developed.

 

[believehim]

Yes, we are all seers too. Some don't see very far - and some see quite far. This kind of sight is both given and developed.

Hello friend! And may I ask, to what are you drawing this info from?


-b

 

[Avonia]

Hello friend! And may I ask, to what are you drawing this info from?


-b

Experience.

We are capable of perceiving across a very large spectrum. But most of us perceive in only a narrow band. As children, we had a sense of many things we do not as adults - because some of our perceptual channels were much more open when we were very young. This is why some children are immediately so drawn - or repelled - by some people they meet. They have a sense for them in a way that's a bit different than our sense.

Dreams are a good example of this. For some people, precognitive dreams are commonplace. These people are not "seeing the future" per say - but they are perceiving in a slightly wider band than most people. So it looks like future-telling at first glace. But it is not.

Once understood, this kind of sight is just as ordinary as physical sight - but it is different. It's only extraordinary if you don't understand it.

Remember, for most of our history on the planet, you could have easily been burned at the stake for having a cell phone! A talking box - with the voices of people from "another place." Just image how demonic that would have seemed.

But we understand electromagnetism now. So, it's old hat.

The inexhaustible nature of God is reflected in the nature God's children. The gifts we've been able to develop are only the tip of the iceberg. Most of our potential would seem inconceivable - and frightening - from our current frame-of-reference.

 

[ricker]

I doubt there is a switch, that when in the "on" position, creates a talking-head with a direct link.

That fact that we need a prophet to teach us an absolute, but are simultaneously in a position to evaluate him/her, is funny. I don't know if that's closer to illusion or delusion.

We are all human prophets, and everyone's view is incomplete. Some views are more incomplete than others. The degree of dark in the "glass darkly" varies. But we evaluate each view offered in every way possible. So it's important to come into relationship with a view - not simply decide about it.

But it's much easier to assign - all or nothing - good/bad right/wrong God/Devil. But it's not very useful much of the time.

29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31But eagerly desire the greater gifts.

 

[Avonia]

29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31But eagerly desire the greater gifts.

Yes, but we tend to think of them (gifts) too discretely - as objects that you either have or you don't have.

The gifts show up all the way from so faint that it's really hard to notice - all the way to so strong it's impossible to miss.

The opportunity is to help each other bring them more into expression.


.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Yes, we are all seers too. Some don't see very far - and some see quite far. This kind of sight is both given and developed.

In your opinion, if a person writes that masturbation leads to a weak brain, cancerous tumors, dropsy, weak eye sight, insanity, kidney and/or liver disease, memory loss, rheumatism and/or premature death, would this person qualify for (1) the category of "doesn't see very far," or (2) the category of "sees quite far?"

BFA

 

[Avonia]

In your opinion, if a person writes that masturbation leads to a weak brain, cancerous tumors, dropsy, weak eye sight, insanity, kidney and/or liver disease, memory loss, rheumatism and/or premature death, would this person qualify for (1) the category of "doesn't see very far," or (2) the category of "sees quite far?"
BFA

It's a lot less crazy than many things in the Bible.

Do I think Ellen White had exceptional sight - yes. Do we know that what she said about masturbation is not true - yes.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

It's a lot less crazy than many things in the Bible.

Such as?

Do I think Ellen White had exceptional sight - yes. Do we know that what she said about masturbation is not true - yes.

So her exceptional sight was intermittant? How reliable is her exceptional sight?

BFA

 

[Avonia]

Such as?
So her exceptional sight was intermittant? How reliable is her exceptional sight?
BFA

We are each exceptional - and incomplete.

 

[Cribstyl]

With all that said Avonia, we desperately need a new catagory between true and false.

 

[Avonia]

With all that said Avonia, we desperately need a new catagory between true and false.

It's easier to deify or vilify people than it is to come into relationship with them.

My family was possibly a bit out of the ordinary in the sense that Ellen White was understood as a remarkable teacher, but we did not make the demands or have the expectations that many SDAs did.

Some of her writing reflects a high level of perception - contributions on education being a good example. And some of her writing reflects projections stemming from fear.

So, there are some things she said that are highly relevant and useful, some things that are sort of ordinary, and some things that are skewed - and as BFA and others have pointed out - potentially harmful. Said more simply, she was human. The same is true with every other teacher on the planet - including each of us as learners/teachers.

Our work is coming into a deeper understanding of the mix so we can benefit from the contributions teachers make that support right action, mitigate the potential harm from the projections based in fear, and understand the middle of the spectrum - as you pointed out Crib - where it doesn't really matter one way or the other.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

It's easier to deify or vilify people than it is to come into relationship with them.

My family was possibly a bit out of the ordinary in the sense that Ellen White was understood as a remarkable teacher, but we did not make the demands or have the expectations that many SDAs did.

Some of her writing reflects a high level of perception - contributions on education being a good example. And some of her writing reflects projections stemming from fear.

So, there are some things she said that are highly relevant and useful, some things that are sort of ordinary, and some things that are skewed - and as BFA and others have pointed out - potentially harmful. Said more simply, she was human. The same is true with every other teacher on the planet - including each of us as learners/teachers.

Our work is coming into a deeper understanding of the mix so we can benefit from the contributions teachers make that support right action, mitigate the potential harm from the projections based in fear, and understand the middle of the spectrum - as you pointed out Crib - where it doesn't really matter one way or the other.

This is helpful clarification. Thank you, Avonia.

BFA

 

[Sophia7]

It's easier to deify or vilify people than it is to come into relationship with them.

My family was possibly a bit out of the ordinary in the sense that Ellen White was understood as a remarkable teacher, but we did not make the demands or have the expectations that many SDAs did.

Some of her writing reflects a high level of perception - contributions on education being a good example. And some of her writing reflects projections stemming from fear.

So, there are some things she said that are highly relevant and useful, some things that are sort of ordinary, and some things that are skewed - and as BFA and others have pointed out - potentially harmful. Said more simply, she was human. The same is true with every other teacher on the planet - including each of us as learners/teachers.

Our work is coming into a deeper understanding of the mix so we can benefit from the contributions teachers make that support right action, mitigate the potential harm from the projections based in fear, and understand the middle of the spectrum - as you pointed out Crib - where it doesn't really matter one way or the other.

Avonia, I can relate to what you wrote in that my family wasn't very "traditional" in their view of Ellen White's writings either. As a result, I didn't grow up with a lot of the expectations that many Adventists put on people. I also agree with you that she wrote some things that are relevant and useful and other things that are skewed or even harmful. My main disagreement with Adventism on this is in their calling her writings "a continuing and authoritative source of truth." There may be some truth in her writings, but there is also error, so I can't accept her as authoritative.

If Adventism were to simply view her as a teacher, as many other Christians view the prominent leaders and founders of their denominations, I wouldn't see this as such a big deal. Traditionally, though, I think that many Adventists have elevated her to a much higher level than they should have. And her writings have encouraged them in that because she said, for example, that her testimonies were either all from God or all from Satan.

 

[Avonia]

My main disagreement with Adventism on this is in their calling her writings "a continuing and authoritative source of truth."

This is the 800 lb gorilla in the room for Adventists.

Many of the binary classifications in Christianity are an issue: authoritative or not, inspired or not, prophet or not. Christianity is too often more interested in deciding than knowing.

We are all Aspects of the Divine - children of God - there is no way to loose this identity. If we did, we would instantly cease to exist. Said another way, we are children of God, currently expressing as humans, participating in the Christian community. We get confused and think we are "Christians."

But there is a wide range and degree of distortions among the children! I suspect there were some rays of truth accentuated in Ellen White, and some distortions that were also accentuated.

We are more comfortable using the label "prophet" or "fraud" because it's easier than doing the hard work of understanding the person. Paul (Bible) is a good example of this. He had so many beautiful rays of Light streaming through his life. And he had a few distortions. This is not a surprise - Paul too was human.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

This is the 800 lb gorilla in the room for Adventists.

Many of the binary classifications in Christianity are an issue: authoritative or not, inspired or not, prophet or not. Christianity is too often more interested in deciding than knowing.

We are all Aspects of the Divine - children of God - there is no way to loose this identity. If we did, we would instantly cease to exist. Said another way, we are children of God, currently expressing as humans, participating in the Christian community. We get confused and think we are "Christians."

But there is a wide range and degree of distortions among the children! I suspect there were some rays of truth accentuated in Ellen White, and some distortions that were also accentuated.

We are more comfortable using the label "prophet" or "fraud" because it's easier than doing the hard work of understanding the person. Paul (Bible) is a good example of this. He had so many beautiful rays of Light streaming through his life. And he had a few distortions. This is not a surprise - Paul too was human.

What are Paul's distortions? Is it possible that you are finding fault with Paul in order to explain the errors of Ellen G. White?

BFA

 

[Avonia]

Is it possible that you are finding fault with Paul in order to explain the errors of Ellen G. White?

BFA, you are projecting. That question is about you, not me.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

BFA, you are projecting. That question is about you, not me.

I'm not sure that I understand this response. To my knowledge, I have not found any distortions in Paul's writings. I am, however, interested to learn more about the distortions you have found. If I've misunderstood your response, please clarify.

BFA

 

[Avonia]

I'm not sure that I understand this response. To my knowledge, I have not found any distortions in Paul's writings. I am, however, interested to learn more about the distortions you have found. If I've misunderstood your response, please clarify.
BFA

I don't explain away errors of Ellen White. I have no interest in that particular SDA pursuit. Only a few posts ago, I shared my sense that both her insights and her errors were accentuated.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

I don't explain away errors of Ellen White.

That has always been my impression of you, and I appreciate it.

Only a few posts ago, I shared my sense that both her insights and her errors were accentuated.

I acknowledge that this is true. That's why I was a bit surprised by your comment about Paul.

BFA

 

[sentipente]

Christianity is too often more interested in deciding than knowing.

Ah!