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RC_NewProtestants

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"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables." (2Ti 4:3-4)


Indeed but the problem is that fundamentalists don't consider the verse in front of the one you quoted:
2Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction.

Is the Word that there was 6 literal days of creation or that God is the creator? What about patience and careful instruction, where is that found in the fundamentalist? More likely it will be believe what we say or leave us, that is not preaching the word and it is not being prepared in and out of season to as another author says; to give everyman an answer for the hope that is in you.

You have demonstrated this so well with your verse. Is the 6 literal days the myth or is the idea that we don't know how creation was preformed the myth. Which is the myth a story clearly written in a mythological style or the natural world and the evidence it contains? Is sound doctrine reflective of reality or reflective of tradition? Which side is willing to discuss the issues and which is not? Answering that can show where sound doctrine lies and where it does not.
 
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Eila

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Is the Word that there was 6 literal days of creation or that God is the creator? What about patience and careful instruction, where is that found in the fundamentalist? More likely it will be believe what we say or leave us, that is not preaching the word and it is not being prepared in and out of season to as another author says; to give everyman an answer for the hope that is in you.

You have demonstrated this so well with your verse. Is the 6 literal days the myth or is the idea that we don't know how creation was preformed the myth. Which is the myth a story clearly written in a mythological style or the natural world and the evidence it contains? Is sound doctrine reflective of reality or reflective of tradition? Which side is willing to discuss the issues and which is not? Answering that can show where sound doctrine lies and where it does not.

RC,

You mentioned that you do not believe in a literal day creation week. Do you view creation as God creating over a long period of time (i.e. millions of years) or something else? :wave:
 
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woobadooba

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RC,

Even though your view has been, and can be easily refuted, I feel that debating with you over the Creation account would only prove to be futile.

I will be frank with you here, your view of the Creation account is not SDA, and should not be inculcated in this forum.

Moreover, it is anti-Biblical.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to note the nonsensical nature of your premise. Why speak of days if they are equal to millions of years?

Did it really take thousands or millions of years to create cattle?

And why would it be so difficult to fathom that God could create everything in 6 literal days, when in fact this same God was able to become an infant in but a moment of time?

You lack faith in what God is capable of doing. That is the problem RC. You are trying to make a god in your own image, to fit your level of intelligence.

God is beyond you. Period. So don't try to fit him in your finite box.

In the name of Jesus Christ I order you to stop teaching these ideas in this forum! You are causing people to turn away from God by doing this! Already, 2 members in here have become atheists because of your view. Stop it!

And if you don't stop this, I will pray fervently to my God for Him to stop you.
 
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woobadooba

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but my goodness there are some of the orneryisy vitriolic, tunnel-visioned ... where is my Bible?

And who are you speaking of here?

Are you speaking of those who defend the Word of Truth (The Bible), or those who trample all over it with their lies?
 
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woobadooba

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For the record, I enjoy open discussion. However, I do not tolerate the inculcation of ideas that are anti-Biblical. And any person that claims to be Christian ought to strongly oppose such views as well.

Too much has changed since the days of the Apostles. Christians tend to be too passive to sin, and too tolerant of views that originate with the devil.

The Church is in a very sad condition right now.
 
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annie1speed

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From Ephesians 4:28 - 32, I think. It's at the end of the chapter. I have trouble with cutting and pasting. You wouldn't believe what I do for a living. :D Oh I will just type it. :)

Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

And be ye kind one to another ......

I submit, that we grieve the Holy Spirit when we are unkind to each other ... and there is a fair amount of unkindness in this forum these days.

Annie
 
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woobadooba

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Boy, you are fast. You made two post before I could type up my verses!

Annie, two of my friends are now atheists as a result of teachings such as the one that RC is promoting on Creation.

I take this personally, because I care about my little brothers and sisters in Christ.

How many others will turn away from God before this stops?

You have no idea how this hurts me inside!

I don't believe that what I had said to RC constitutes a mean-spirit, but rather righteous indignation.
 
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annie1speed

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For the record, I enjoy open discussion. However, I do not tolerate the inculcation of ideas that are anti-Biblical. And any person that claims to be Christian ought to strongly oppose such views as well.

Too much has changed since the days of the Apostles. ... The Church is in a very sad condition right now.

Hmmmm. Still can't do quotes like I want them.

I can think of about five things that come to mind, but I'll hold my peace about that and simply say that it is not so much the content as it is the spirit among some who claim to be brothers and sisters toward each other.

Annie
 
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woobadooba

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Hmmmm. Still can't do quotes like I want them.

I can think of about five things that come to mind, but I'll hold my peace about that and simply say that it is not so much the content as it is the spirit among some who claim to be brothers and sisters toward each other.

Annie

Annie, I will not let you make me feel guilty for what I said to RC.

There is a place for strong rebuke in the church. It may not be nice to hear, but it is sometimes necessary.

Furthermore, you have no idea how many people have approached him in a gentle manner on those matters with which he is in error. God knows. And He will be the one to judge me for what I have said to RC.

I may get a CF warning for it; but God will have the last word about it.
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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RC,

You mentioned that you do not believe in a literal day creation week. Do you view creation as God creating over a long period of time (i.e. millions of years) or something else? :wave:
I really don't know how God created all we see. My beliefs are based upon the Bible but not based upon the assumption that the Bible is meant to be always and forever understood as literal history. Know doubt when ancient times simple literal understanding was used, but I think God is bigger then that and that even as we learn so much more then what we knew in the past the Bible can still speak to us. And we don't have to suspend our knowledge of the world in order to understand the messages of God found in the Bible.

I am working on a multi-part series posted on my blog which I have not completely finished but you may find it helpful in understanding which is based upon the realities we see and the stories we read in the Bible.
http://newprotestants.com/ecc.html


There is nothing anti-biblical about interpreting the Bible in ways other then traditional fundamental ways. A fundamentalist Jew would never accept Christianity, something has to cause them to rethink their interpretations. These points of rethinking interpretations has been a pretty regular part of the Judeo-Christian religion.

I found Woob's order to stop pretty funny, apparently he thinks I am a demon that he can cast out, probably reading too much Neil Anderson, well not him but some Adventist of the same idea.

I will tell you the tipping point was for me many years ago in an Astronomy College class that was taught by a Paleobotanist. His area of specialty was microscopic fossils. When you find that there are areas of cyanobacteria (used to be called blue-green algae) which is only made up of layers of bacteria without any pollen grains then I had to re-evaluate my assumptions. When the oldest fossil beds contain the bacteria and no pollen e.g. no plant material then the possibility that things began differently they we assumed has to be considered. I agree with Woob that God could have done it all in just an instant or 6 days but it could also be over billions of years. Yet the reality we see has to lead to the question of how God created and we may never have the answer to that.
 
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woobadooba

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I really don't know how God created all we see. My beliefs are based upon the Bible but not based upon the assumption that the Bible is meant to be always and forever understood as literal history. Know doubt when ancient times simple literal understanding was used, but I think God is bigger then that and that even as we learn so much more then what we knew in the past the Bible can still speak to us. And we don't have to suspend our knowledge of the world in order to understand the messages of God found in the Bible.

I am working on a multi-part series posted on my blog which I have not completely finished but you may find it helpful in understanding which is based upon the realities we see and the stories we read in the Bible.
http://newprotestants.com/ecc.html


There is nothing anti-biblical about interpreting the Bible in ways other then traditional fundamental ways. A fundamentalist Jew would never accept Christianity, something has to cause them to rethink their interpretations. These points of rethinking interpretations has been a pretty regular part of the Judeo-Christian religion.

I found Woob's order to stop pretty funny, apparently he thinks I am a demon that he can cast out, probably reading too much Neil Anderson, well not him but some Adventist of the same idea.

I will tell you the tipping point was for me many years ago in an Astronomy College class that was taught by a Paleobotanist. His area of specialty was microscopic fossils. When you find that there are areas of cyanobacteria (used to be called blue-green algae) which is only made up of layers of bacteria without any pollen grains then I had to re-evaluate my assumptions. When the oldest fossil beds contain the bacteria and no pollen e.g. no plant material then the possibility that things began differently they we assumed has to be considered. I agree with Woob that God could have done it all in just an instant or 6 days but it could also be over billions of years. Yet the reality we see has to lead to the question of how God created and we may never have the answer to that.

RC,

It is not a question of 'how' God created, but a question of what time frame God created in.

The Bible is very clear on this matter. In fact, the Sabbath command alone can serve as a means to prove that God created in six literal days, since the command itself is rooted in the creation account. The Sabbath day does not last for thousands of years, but only for a 24 hour time period.

Moreover, the idea of a 'morning and evening' in the creation account makes it quite clear that it was a literal six day creation.

And as stated before, it would be nonsensical to think that it took millions of years to create cattle. To assume each day to represent such a time frame, one would have to render such a conclusion, as it were. Also, the creation account speaks of 'days', not millions of years.

Of course, there are other arguments.

As to what I mean by anti-Biblical, there are teachings in the Bible that are obvious. Such teachings can only be denied when someone either refuses to see the obvious, or just simply acts in a dishonest manner.

The idea that the creation account did not take place in six literal days, is a denial of the obvious, and is thus an anti-Biblical position.

What it comes down to RC, is either you are going to accept what inspiration says, or you are going to reject it. Just because you can't explain it in detail, that doesn't make it false. You don't have to explain everything. There are some things that you just have to accept by faith, knowing that there is a devil out there that is going through great pains to distort the truth.

Not everything that science dictates to be evidence is proof for what many assume the answers to be. Just because you or someone else discovers something that appears to be contrary to what the Bible teaches on a fundamental level, that doesn't mean it is what science determines it to be (in this case a means to refute what the Bible says). Until you learn everything there is to know about such findings you can't speak in absolutes on the matter, but merely offer theories as to what such findings mean. Later discoveries may prove to refute such hypotheses at some point in time, as science changes its perspective quite frequently.

By the way, I don't believe you are a demon. I ordered you not to teach such things in here because 1. such a teaching is anti-SDA, and anti-Biblical. 2. two friends of mine that were members of this forum are now atheists because of such a teaching. This greatly troubles me.
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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Woob wrote:
Moreover, the idea of a 'morning and evening' in the creation account makes it quite clear that it was a literal six day creation.
Really? and the morning and evening before there was a sun created is based upon what? You may want to take it literally but it cannot be taken literally. So it is not anti-biblical to acknowledge what is in the account. From the third part of my article not yet posted:
In the beginning God created, but just how did He create? Did you ever wonder as you read the above text how there was water on the earth as it floated light years from the nearest sun? (Proxima Centauri is 4.3 light-years from the Sun) For in the Genesis account there was no sun until day four, there was no atmosphere to hold in the vapor of that water if by some unknown property it should no longer be in the natural state of ice found near absolute zero of space, because the firmament was not until day number 2 of the creation series (Genesis 1:8). Light was the first element of creation but we have no idea what that light was, it can’t be the sun for that is the light which predominately lights our world because again that was not until day four of creation. Yet in Genesis 1:5 we see that the light produced, separated the light from the darkness and the light part was called day, the dark, night.

The story to modern scientific minds makes little sense but it seemed to cause little confusion in the ancient world. They had no idea where the Sun was or that other suns were those much more distant shining lights in the sky. The idea of a planet in space was totally foreign concept to ancient man. It would be hard for someone coming out of Egyptian captivity to even imagine glaciers let alone a planet covered with ice. So the Genesis story begins with the symbols of familiar myths of creation. The chaos of water is integral to many of the creation myths. For the Egyptians creation came about from the water. Water is a very good symbol of chaos as it swirls and covers and seems to have the ability to do whatever it may want to do with whatever it encounters. A river can appear tame but when it floods it is a fearsome thing and the sea with it vast amount of water would be a terrifying thing. An article entitled Chaos –A Creation Constant says:
The ocean (or simply water) is a popular metaphor for chaos. We find this not only in Japanese tradition, but also in Hebrew tradition. In the first chapter of Genesis we read of God crossing the deep waters. In Babylonian tradition the fierce and fertile goddess Tiamat represented chaos as a deity of the saltwater sea. Hindu mythology tells of Vishnu perched upon a giant snake adrift in the infinite chaotic primordial sea. Water has properties that make it an ideal symbol for chaos - it is fluid and difficult to control or manipulate.

Woob wrote:
By the way, I don't believe you are a demon. I ordered you not to teach such things in here because 1. such a teaching is anti-SDA, and anti-Biblical. 2. two friends of mine that were members of this forum are now atheists because of such a teaching. This greatly troubles me.

I think you should talk to those people. I would wager that they gave up on God because of their fundamentalist understanding of God rather then because of a Progressive or Liberal Christian view. Most of the former SDA's who are now Atheists that I have dealt with have a very fundamentalist view which they have in general rejected because it does not fit the reality of the world.
 
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woobadooba

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RC_NewProtestants said:
Really? and the morning and evening before there was a sun created is based upon what? You may want to take it literally but it cannot be taken literally.

So because the sun wasn't created on 'day one', that constitutes that there couldn't be darkness to separate the day from the night? That means each day couldn't be a literal 24 hour time period?

I don't see that you even have a valid argument here.

Again, with God all things are possible. You are trying to put God in a box. He is way beyond your finite comprehension.

I also find it to be quite odd that you rely so heavily on science to dictate what scripture means, since you don't seem to have trouble accepting the fact that an infinite being (God), became an infant, and was thus infinite and finite at the same time. Science would reject such a claim because it assumes such things to be impossible; yet you accept it, while claiming the 6 day creation as being literal to not make sense simply because science tells you it couldn't be so?

I see a double standard here!
 
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Eila

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I really don't know how God created all we see. My beliefs are based upon the Bible but not based upon the assumption that the Bible is meant to be always and forever understood as literal history. Know doubt when ancient times simple literal understanding was used, but I think God is bigger then that and that even as we learn so much more then what we knew in the past the Bible can still speak to us. And we don't have to suspend our knowledge of the world in order to understand the messages of God found in the Bible.

I am working on a multi-part series posted on my blog which I have not completely finished but you may find it helpful in understanding which is based upon the realities we see and the stories we read in the Bible.
http://newprotestants.com/ecc.html


There is nothing anti-biblical about interpreting the Bible in ways other then traditional fundamental ways. A fundamentalist Jew would never accept Christianity, something has to cause them to rethink their interpretations. These points of rethinking interpretations has been a pretty regular part of the Judeo-Christian religion.

I found Woob's order to stop pretty funny, apparently he thinks I am a demon that he can cast out, probably reading too much Neil Anderson, well not him but some Adventist of the same idea.

I will tell you the tipping point was for me many years ago in an Astronomy College class that was taught by a Paleobotanist. His area of specialty was microscopic fossils. When you find that there are areas of cyanobacteria (used to be called blue-green algae) which is only made up of layers of bacteria without any pollen grains then I had to re-evaluate my assumptions. When the oldest fossil beds contain the bacteria and no pollen e.g. no plant material then the possibility that things began differently they we assumed has to be considered. I agree with Woob that God could have done it all in just an instant or 6 days but it could also be over billions of years. Yet the reality we see has to lead to the question of how God created and we may never have the answer to that.

Thanks for letting me know your viewpoint :wave: Another question....do you believe living things died during the billions of years of creation?
 
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erin74

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Why would you want to talk about her faults? Would you like to discuss your faults in an open forum? Why throw stones?

If you don't believe she was a prophet then don't you think you should just keep that to yourself rather than come in here and stir up trouble with those who have great respect for her and the role that she played in the church?

I do believe one of the Mods addressed this matter as being inappropriate. So I don't see this as a debatable issue. To come in here and declare her to be a false prophet constitutes a violation of the no flaming rule, since she is held in high regard (greatly respected) by several members of this forum (including myself).
Just for clarity.

We are not saying that EGW cannot be discussed. We are saying she cannot be flamed.
 
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woobadooba

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Just for clarity.

We are not saying that EGW cannot be discussed. We are saying she cannot be flamed.

Declaring her to be a false prophet is a flame to some, since she is held in such high regard by certain members within the forum.

It's all a matter of interpretation.
 
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Adventist Dissident

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Declaring her to be a false prophet is a flame to some, since she is held in such high regard by certain members within the forum.

It's all a matter of interpretation.

so this would not be accptable

EGW is a false prophet - declarition of absloute fact

This would be acceptable

I believe EGW is a false prophet - statement of opinion
 
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