We are Not to Speak Against the Torah

[HARK!]

It is true that Paul had the highest respect for the Torah. There is no doubt about that. But he did not seek justification through keeping the Law, but through faith in Christ.

Here is what Yahshua said about believing in him:

(CLV) Jn 5:45
"Be not supposing that I shall be accusing you to the Father. He who is accusing you to the Father is Moses, on whom you rely.

(CLV) Jn 5:46
For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for the writes concerning Me.

(CLV) Jn 5:47
Now if you are not believing his writings, how shall you be believing My declarations?"

Moses is synonymous with Torah.

 

[HARK!]

In the Torah divorce is allowed for other reasons

Such as?

More scripture please.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Paul was quoting the TaNaK when he said that.

There you will find the context.

No One is Just?

Paul did say he was blameless according to the Law, but the keeping of the Law was according to the outward acts. No accounting was made about the heart, as long as the external commands are kept. Therefore, according to the external commands, Paul was blameless, but God saw that his heart wasn't right. So Paul needed more than just being outwardly blameless to be justified before God, and that is why Jesus appeared to him to inform him that he was persecuting Him directly when dragging people to prison and death for their Christian faith.

A hypocrite can follow the Law perfectly and appear the holiest person in the church, but still not be right with God because he is following the Law with the wrong heart motives, something which God can see where no one else can.

Just as a matter of interest, Calvin made this remark in his commentary on Romans 3: "A Gentile who follows the Law is better than a Jew who doesn't".

 

[HARK!]

Are you not the one who quotes verse after verse, you know the verses.

(CLV) Jn 14:23
Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone should be loving Me, he will be keeping My word, and My Father will be loving him, and We shall be coming to him and making an abode with him.

(CLV) Jn 14:24
He who is not loving Me, is not keeping My words. And the word which you are hearing is not Mine, but the Father's Who sends Me.


(CLV) Jn 7:16
Jesus, then, answered them and said, "My teaching is not Mine, but His Who sends Me.

(CLV) Jn 7:17
If anyone should be wanting to be doing His will, he will know concerning the teaching, whether it is of God or I am speaking from Myself.

I'm not familiar with the verses where Yahshua contradicts his father's words.

Can you point them out for me?

 

[trophy33]

They quoted the LXX more often than the Masoretic Text; but they did quote both. They also quoted books not found in either of those texts such as the Book of Jubilees.

Is the Book of Jubilees Torah?

MJ Only - Jubilees is Torah According to 4Q266

So you use LXX as your "Torah"? And learn Greek?

 

[HARK!]

Paul did say he was blameless according to the Law, but the keeping of the Law was according to the outward acts. No accounting was made about the heart, as long as the external commands are kept.

Writing YHWH's Torah on your heart was the law long before Yahshua walked the earth.

(CLV) Dt 11:18
Hence you will place these my words in your heart and in your soul, and you will tie them as a sign on your hand, and let them come to be as brow-bands between your eyes.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Here is what Yahshua said about believing in him:

(CLV) Jn 5:45
"Be not supposing that I shall be accusing you to the Father. He who is accusing you to the Father is Moses, on whom you rely.

(CLV) Jn 5:46
For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for the writes concerning Me.

(CLV) Jn 5:47
Now if you are not believing his writings, how shall you be believing My declarations?"

Moses is synonymous with Torah.

True. Moses prophetically pointed to Jesus as the true Messiah. Jesus actually referred to the Torah as "Moses" when He had Abraham speak to the rich man in hell. He said that if the man's brothers did not believe Moses (the Torah) and the Prophets, even if someone rose from the dead to warn them, they would not believe him.

 

[ozso]

(CLV) Ja 4:11
Do not be speaking against one another, brethren. He who is speaking against a brother, or judging his brother, is speaking against law and is judging law. Now if you are judging law, you are not a doer of law, but a judge.

We are to do the Torah, not speak against it.

What is CLV Ja 4:11?

 

[HARK!]

So you use LXX as your "Torah"? And learn Greek?

Again, they also quoted from the Masoretic Text, as well as other manuscripts. I study all of the manuscripts that are available to me. I prefer to spend most of my time for studying the language, in the language that it was written in, Ancient Hebrew, and the otiot; but that's just my personal preference.

So much to learn, so little time.

 

[HARK!]

What is CLV Ja 4:11?

It's James 4:11.

 

[trophy33]

Again, they also quoted from the Masoretic Text, as well as other manuscripts. I study all of the manuscripts that are available to me. I prefer to spend most of my time for studying the language, in the language that it was written in, Ancient Hebrew, and the otiot; but that's just my personal preference.

So much to learn, so little time.

The majority of time they quoted Septuagint, so it does not make sense that you prefer Hebrew language, in which you do not have a reliable text. Only text that is inconsistent with much of the New Testament and presents also very different text for the Old one.

This is something I never understood with people propagating the old Law. When we do not know today what the text exactly was, how can you follow it?

 

[HARK!]

The vast majority of time they quoted Septuagint, so it does not make sense that you prefer Hebrew language, in which you do not have a reliable text.

There is great value in the LXX; but there are flaws in the LXX too. This is why I also study the Qumran scrolls. By studying Ancient Hebrew, and the otiot, there is much to be understood, that would be lost in a Greek rendering, or even in Modern Hebrew.

 

[trophy33]

There is great value in the LXX; but there are flaws in the LXX too. This is why I also study the Qumran scrolls. By studying Ancient Hebrew, and the otiot, there is much to be understood, that would be lost in a Greek rendering, or even in Modern Hebrew.

So you do not know what the original Torah said, right? You just personally compose it from various uncertain sources. How can you follow it today, then?

 

[HARK!]

So you do not know what the original Torah said, right? You just personally compose it from various uncertain sources. How can you follow it today, then?

The message is left predominantly intact. How do you follow it?

 

[trophy33]

The message is left predominantly intact. How do you follow it?

I do not follow it, because its not possible anymore. There is no temple and no state institutions judging who did what according to it. There are also no certain texts. We live in a new era (new heavens, new earth).

If just some basic "message" is needed, then why to study old manuscripts?

 

[HARK!]

I do not follow it, because its not possible anymore. There is no temple and no state institutions judging who did what according to it.

We live in a new era.

If Yahshua taught and followed the Torah; and he called us to follow him; how can we follow him; if we don't follow the Torah?

The Temple is a requirement when Yah's people are in the land.

(CLV) 1Jn 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we may be keeping His precepts. And His precepts are not heavy,


(CLV) Dt 30:11
For this instruction that I am enjoining on you today, it is neither too difficult for you, nor is it too far off.


How did Moses follow the Torah before there was a Temple? How did David follow the Torah? Yah's people are in exile. How did Yah's people follow the Torah the last time they were in Exile?

(CLV) 1Ki 8:33
iWhen Your people Israel are struck- before an enemy, because they were sinning against You, and they return to You (Repent!) and acclaim Your Name and pray and supplicate to You in this house,

(CLV) 1Ki 8:34
then may You Yourself hearken from the heavens, and You will pardon the sin of Your people Israel, and You will restore them to the ground that You gave to their fathers.

(CLV) 1Ki 8:35
When the heavens are restrained and there is not rain because they were sinning against You, and they pray toward this place and acclaim Your Name and turn back (Repent!) from their sin because You made them humble,

(CLV) 1Ki 8:36
then may You Yourself hearken from the heavens, and You will pardon the sin of Your servants, Your people Israel; for You are directing them »to the good way in which they should walk; and You will give rain on Your land that You have given as an allotment to Your people.

(CLV) 1Ki 8:37
In case a famine comes ion the land, tor a plague comes, or a blast or mildew, in case locusts and beetles come, in case their enemy is distressing them in the land of their gates—any kind of contagion, any illness—

(CLV) 1Ki 8:38
in every prayer, every supplication that may occur by any human or by all of Your people Israel, for they know each one the contagion of his own heart, when he spreads out his palms toward this house,

(CLV) 1Ki 8:39
then may You Yourself hearken from the heavens, the site of Your dwelling, and You will pardon and act, and You will give to each one according to all his ways since You know his heart—for You Yourself, You alone, know the heart of all the sons of humanity—

(CLV) 1Ki 8:40
so that they may fear You all the days that they are alive on the surface of the ground that You gave to our fathers.

(CLV) 1Ki 8:41
And also to the foreigner (Gentiles) who is not of Your people Israel, he who came from a far country on account of Your Name

(CLV) 1Ki 8:42
—for they shall hear of Your great Name and Your steadfast hand and Your outstretched arm when he comes and prays toward this house,

(CLV) 1Ki 8:43
to him may You Yourself hearken fromcs the heavens, the site of Your dwelling, and You will act according to all for which the foreigner (Gentile) calls to You; in order that all the peoples of the earth may know Your Name so as to fear You as do Your own people Israel, and know- that Your Name has been called over this house that I have built.

It goes on; but here he says it again:

(CLV) 1Ki 8:47
yet they turn back (Repent!) their heart in the land where they are captives, so that they return to You and supplicate in the land of their captors, saying, We have sinned, we are depraved, and we are wicked,

Repentance is the message that kicked off Yahshua's ministry.

 

[trophy33]

If Yahshua taught and followed the Torah; and he called us to follow him; how can we follow him; if we don't follow the Torah?

He came under the Law. What He said, He said to people in His time, before His death and resurrection, also before 70 AD.

We live after that. We are not servants anymore, but sons.

4But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, having been born of a woman, having been born under the Law, 5that He might redeem those under the Law, so that we might receive the divine adoption as sons. 6And because you are sons, God sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” 7So you are no longer a slave but a son; and if a son, also an heir through God.
Gal 4


What you say was right in its time and place, but its long gone.

 

[HARK!]

He came under the Law. What He said, He said to people in His time, before 70 AD.

We live after that. We are not servants anymore, but sons.

4But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, having been born of a woman, having been born under the Law, 5that He might redeem those under the Law, so that we might receive the divine adoption as sons. 6And because you are sons, God sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” 7So you are no longer a slave but a son; and if a son, also an heir through God.
Gal 4


What you say was right in its time and place, but its long gone.

Paul is the only person in the Bible to use the expression "under the law." Paul is not so easy for some to understand. Even Peter, who walked with Yahshua, took the full course, and was in the inner circle of Yahshua's disciples, found Paul difficult to understand.

Was Paul no longer a slave?

(CLV) Ro 7:25
I thank God, through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Consequently, then, I myself, with the mind, indeed, am slaving for God's law, yet with the flesh for Sin's law.

Paul taught primarily from the TaNaK. I suppose because he didn't come to Yahshua until about ten years after Yahshua had ascended. Even so, if we want to better understand what Paul is trying to tell us about the Torah; we might do well to understand where Paul's teachings can be found in the Torah.

Here is what our Messiah said concerning this subject:

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.

 

[trophy33]

Paul is the only person in the Bible to use the expression "under the law." Paul is not so easy for some to understand. Even Peter, who walked with Yahshua, took the full course, and was in the inner circle of Yahshua's disciples, found Paul difficult to understand.

Was Paul no longer a slave?

(CLV) Ro 7:25
I thank God, through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Consequently, then, I myself, with the mind, indeed, am slaving for God's law, yet with the flesh for Sin's law.

Paul taught primarily from the TaNaK. I suppose because he didn't come to Yahshua until about ten years after Yahshua had ascended. Even so, if we want to better understand what Paul is trying to tell us about the Torah; we might do well to understand where Paul's teachings can be found in the Torah.

Here is what our Messiah said concerning this subject:

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.

Paul lived after the resurrection, but still before the kingdom of God and the final judgement came. He was expecting it, but died sooner, because of Nero.

So in his life and teaching we can find some intertestamental positions.

We also cannot ignore that he was born and raised a Jew and was one for whole his life. We are not. We live waaaay long after that.

 

[Acts29]

He also quoted much scripture that is not included in the Pharisee canon that King James adopted.

Well, that is a strong statement, and very true!
Perhaps in another thread, I would be very interested in a list, if you have one, of the scriptures Jesus quoted that are currently outside of the cannons. Have you ever noticed this one?

Matt 22:29 Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.

Two statements Jesus said from scripture. One, angels niether marry nor are given to marriage. Two, in the resurrection man becomes like the angels. Combined, they answered the Pharisees' question. These two statements, which Jesus called scripture, are nowhere to be found in today's cannon. There is only one book that I know of that has these statements/doctrines plainly written, Enoch. Did Jesus say Enoch is scripture?