Can you at least bring yourself to acknowlege that Jesus committed an act of violence against people in John 2?
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When you stand before Jesus on judgment day do you really believe the excuses you have been using, not to obey what Jesus told us about killing, will be accepted?
He at least must have threatened to do violence. Now Jesus was a Jew and at the time was still under the Old Law. The Old Law allowed for violence. Besides Just because Jesus did something does not mean we have the right to the same thing. He is God and as such is responsible for punishment and rewards.Can you at least bring yourself to acknowlege that Jesus committed an act of violence against people in John 2?
[/COLOR]]He at least must have threatened to do violence.
Now Jesus was a Jew and at the time was still under the Old Law. The Old Law allowed for violence. Besides Just because Jesus did something does not mean we have the right to the same thing. He is God and as such is responsible for punishment and rewards.
He once told me to quit trying to figure him out and just follow him.
So remember he told us: (Matthew 5:39) You have learnt how it was said: Eye for eye and tooth for tooth. But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.
(Matthew 5:43-44) You have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.
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No, He wasn't threatened.
Why do you think that Jesus commanded His followers to go out and buy swords to protect themselves with?
First of all Jesus didnt say buy two swords to protect yourselves with.
(Luke 22:36-38) But now if you have a purse, take it; if you have a haversack, do the same; if you have no sword, sell your cloak and buy one, because I tell you these words of scripture have to be fulfilled in me; He let himself be taken for a criminal, Yes, what scripture says about me is even now reaching its fulfillment. Lord, they said there are two swords here now, He said to them, that is enough!
Here is what some bible scholars have said about that passage of scripture: The Apostles have taken the words of Jesus too literally and he closes the conversation abruptly. Also, The purse to buy, the sword to procure by force the necessities of life. All this is symbolic of a mission in a hostile world. These scholars wrote the Jerusalem Bible. Thats a Catholic Bible and Catholics believe much the way you do about the subject of self-defense.
Another question you should ask yourself is: would Jesus have said that two swords were enough if they were to use swords to defend all the disciples that were there?
Why does the Bible tell us that God has given the agent of the government the authority to "wield the sword"?
Why does God give governments the authority to carry out capital punishment?
There we go with the "I don't need scripture because God told me so" again.
I agree. We shouldn't seek revenge when we're persecuted for the sake of the Gospel. But that doesn't preclude self-defense or capital punishment.
I have answered your question many times in this thread. (Acts 4:19-20) You must judge whether in Gods eyes it is right to listen to you and not to God. We cannot promise to stop proclaiming what we have seen and heard.
If a government tells a Christian to do anything that goes against the command of God a Christian has to obey God not the government.
(Matthew 5:39) You have learnt how it was said: Eye for eye and tooth for tooth. But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.
See above.
(Matthew 5:43-44) You have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.
The first commandment is to love our God. You can only love God by living his Word.I agree that we shouldn't seek revenge on those who persecute us, but what does that have to do with defending oneself or capital punishment?
Let me ask you this:
Let's say that, for whatever reason, you come across a man who's about to kill your neighbor. You choose not to stop the man and he kills your neighbor.
Was this loving your neighbor?
The first commandment is to love our God. You can only love God by living his Word.
Someone who will kill is of the world. The world has laws and people to enforce those laws. A Christian is not part of the world.
It would be the world’s job to protect your neighbor.
The person attacking your neighbor is of the world and breaking the law, so let the world enforce the law.
Giver I believe that part of your confusion about this topic comes from the fact that you either can't or won't distinguish between murder and killing. The other part of your problem comes from the fact that Scripture never commands us to not be a part of the world. God through His written word tells us not to be conformed by the world, He tells us not to love the world, but we are never told to not be in the world.The first commandment is to love our God. You can only love God by living his Word.
Someone who will kill is of the world. The world has laws and people to enforce those laws. A Christian is not part of the world. It would be the world’s job to protect your neighbor. The person attacking your neighbor is of the world and breaking the law, so let the world enforce the law.
Does a fire fighter need to kill or harm anyone?So then, you don't believe that Christians should be police officers, judges, attorneys, parole officers, etc?
I'm a Christian and I was a firefighter and paramedic for about ten years. Do you believe Christians should be firefighters?
Why do you think Jesus instructed His followers to go out and buy swords to protect themselves with?
Does a fire fighter need to kill or harm anyone?
You keep saying you have been shown me that I am wrong, but never back up your statements with anything. All you or any of your WE have shown me is where you all believe I am wrong. The scriptures used have not ever said Christians were ever to use force against anyone.
Come on, maybe you could at least show me where any of the apostles, after they were baptized with the Holy Spirit, ever used a weapon in defense of anyone.
I answered you that question in post #144 why do you want me to do so again?No, but he is called upon to help his neighbor, which you said is not the job of the Christian, but the job of the world.
Now, back to my questions:
So then, you don't believe that Christians should be police officers, judges, attorneys, parole officers, etc?
I'm a Christian and I was a firefighter and paramedic for about ten years. Do you believe Christians should be firefighters?
Why do you think Jesus instructed His followers to go out and buy swords to protect themselves with?
41552948]I answered you that question in post #144 why do you want me to do so again?
Here is what some bible scholars have said about that passage of scripture: The Apostles have taken the words of Jesus too literally and he closes the conversation abruptly.
Does a fire fighter need to kill or harm anyone?
I answered all your questions, and you are going to believe what you want to believe. That is your right. My job was just to give a word. I am not supposed to convince any one.You need to learn how to format your posts so that we don't have to decipher them.
In post #144, you attributed your answer to me. Since I already know what I said, I didn't look at my own answer and, thus, could not see your answer.
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How the Apostles took the words of Jesus isn't the point. The scriptures record Jesus as telling them to go out and buy swords to protect themselves with.
Shooting the arsonsists in this case is not the firefighter's only option. He could call for an extra truck to come and put out the newly started fire, he could dispatch a couple guys to go put it out before it gets to the people inside. He has other options than what you've mentioned. Plus, just where is his legal firearm concealed that it easy to, one get to and two operate while wearing all his protective clothing that is necessary for putting out the fire he is currently dealing with?In some cases, yes.
Suppose a firefighter answers a call at 2 AM when people are asleep in their houses, to a neighborhood where two houses are already burning. Then the firefighter, who happens to be armed with a legal concealed weapon, sees an arsonists setting fire to other houses that contain families that are asleep, and the arsonists is going from house to house setting them on fire.
If that firefighter did not draw his weapon and stop the arsonist by shooting him/her, the firefighter would be in sin, as we are commanded to defend the defenseless, and it would lead to the senseless deaths of many innocent people, including children.
(Matthew 5:43-44) You have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.
I answered all your questions, and you are going to believe what you want to believe. That is your right. My job was just to give a word. I am not supposed to convince any one.
Shooting the arsonsists in this case is not the firefighter's only option. He could call for an extra truck to come and put out the newly started fire, he could dispatch a couple guys to go put it out before it gets to the people inside..
I am not the paid security guards judge. A person who caries a gun for hire is of the world, and God will judge the World.
(John 12:48) He who rejects me and refuses my words has his judge already: the word itself that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day.
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