We are not to hurt anyone for any reason.

GenemZ · Dec 26, 2007

2theBone said:
OK.... then, who was this Messiah figure of Isaiah's time? Hmmm?

Surely you know that the Jews were constantly talking about a mighty warrior king who would lead them to domination of all their enemies.

Not like this was unusual.

Also not unusual that he hasn't shown up, although many of the Jews are still expecting him and it's certainly not out of the question that he could show up.......just not real likely.

You have never been born again. If you had? You would realize that to try to explain the truth to someone like yourself would be futile. For there is a true alter consciousness that you know nothing about.

It can not be explained. It can only be recognized in another who knows it as well.

All you are doing (in my eyes) is shouting and boasting at your five foot thick cell walls, telling them how you are going to bash them down.

Yet, they remain silent...

They remain.

Jet_A_Jockey · Dec 26, 2007

Giver said:
I cant say that I truly know what you are asking. First I am to love God and then my neighbor as my self. I am to love my wife as myself. If Jesus told us not to harm anyone for any reason then if I would not defend myself, because of what Jesus said; what is the difference if I dont defend anyone else?

People make up all these hypothetical situations, and want to know what we should do if? Jesus is in control of our lives, and he will give us the grace and knowledge to do what is right if and when anything bad should happen. I dont believe we get the knowledge or grace before something happens.

If you don't defend your neighbor/family from harm then you are not loving them.

It sounds like you are passing that responsibility over to God. It's no different than if you did not take care of your children because you expect God to handle it. If I am in sin by protecting the helpless (or fatherless and the widow, if you want to put it in biblical terms) then all I can do is ask for mercy.

2theBone · Dec 26, 2007

You have never been born again. If you had? You would realize that to try to explain the truth to someone like yourself would be futile. For there is a true alter consciousness that you know nothing about.

Well, OF COURSE I've been born again.

You can't be a friend of God without being born again......and I am indeed a friend of God.

Jet_A_Jockey · Dec 26, 2007

2theBone said:
OK.... then, who was this Messiah figure of Isaiah's time? Hmmm?

Surely you know that the Jews were constantly talking about a mighty warrior king who would lead them to domination of all their enemies.

Not like this was unusual.

Also not unusual that he hasn't shown up, although many of the Jews are still expecting him and it's certainly not out of the question that he could show up.......just not real likely.

There are more references than that of a leader but also a spiritual saviour. What I gather from your posts is that you do not believe the bible is at all God-inspired, so with that premise there really isn't much to discuss. Oh and thanks for referring me to what to google, I enjoy studying that which I haven't yet.

2theBone · Dec 26, 2007

I believe Jesus was God-inspired based on records of what he is reported to have said and done.......he spoke a lot like Isaiah and others of the prophets--emphasizing caring for the poor and weak and also being fervently interested in justice and mercy.

Good Googling.

GenemZ · Dec 26, 2007

2theBone said:
Well, OF COURSE I've been born again.

You can't be a friend of God without being born again......and I am indeed a friend of God.

If you say so.....

But? being a true friend of God? Not all born again believers are friends of God.

If one is a true friend of God?

Matthew 4:4

"Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God."

I would have to say, according to what you have posted throughout the forum, that you do not quite fit that picture...... You think the Bible is a bunch of stories written by men. Myths. Not truths from God to man.

John 15:14-15 (New International Version)
" You are my friends if you do what I command. I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you."

Evidenced by what you referred to as "religio babble" .... I would have to conclude that the Lord has not been able to make known to you what he says he does with friends.

Others here are getting what I say. They understand. You? Sad to say... You sound like every atheist and liberal I have ever debated in the past. Now, I am not saying you are either of these. I am saying that you "sound" like they did. Could be simply coincidence...

Well...... If you have been born again? Looks like God has to keep you in an incubator for the mean time. For your fruit reveals that you are not yet functioning as a born again believer should be. But, that does not mean you're not born again. Just not living what is needed to know you are, by those who do know they are born again. Just like you can tell who never fired a rifle before, after a minute of watching him.

IC, GeneZ

.

2theBone · Dec 26, 2007

You think the Bible is a bunch of stories written by men. Myths. Not truths from God to man.

Not only that......God agrees with me.

We laugh about it often.

GenemZ · Dec 27, 2007

2theBone said:
Not only that......God agrees with me.

We laugh about it often.

I am sure he does. I am sure it does...

Giver · Dec 27, 2007

Jet_A_Jockey said:
If you don't defend your neighbor/family from harm then you are not loving them.

It sounds like you are passing that responsibility over to God. It's no different than if you did not take care of your children because you expect God to handle it. If I am in sin by protecting the helpless (or fatherless and the widow, if you want to put it in biblical terms) then all I can do is ask for mercy.

Jesus is our Shepherd he will take care of us. The world trusts in its laws and enforcers of that law. My responsibility is to follow the Shepherd

Jet_A_Jockey · Dec 27, 2007

Giver said:
Jesus is our Shepherd he will take care of us. The world trusts in its laws and enforcers of that law. My responsibility is to follow the Shepherd

In that case, if you had a job or bills to pay or any other responsibilities then I'm sure you dropped them all, because the hour is near is it not?

Forgive me but your type of theology here looks more harmful than beneficial, its no different than letting your brethren starve in order to observe the sabbath.

VCViking · Dec 29, 2007

Soul Searcher said:
Yes I am aware of the verses, however most people when they say someone is unsaved base that statement totally on the supposed knowledge that the person doesn't claim to be Christain. Also many people seem to think that the good fruit has somethign to do with professing to be a Christian, spreading the gospel or some such related thing which is very much in error imo.

As you said no one knows the heart of another, even if and when we see them do something that appears to be a bad thing we do not know that they haven't repented and we have no knowledge of what they may do that we are totally unaware of.

This is a type of judgment that none of us should make.

You may be aware of those scriptures but do you know what they mean? What is good fruit to you?

Originally Posted by Soul Searcher

however most people when they say someone is unsaved base that statement totally on the supposed knowledge that the person doesn't claim to be Christain. .

No. It's based on their fruits. But if someone is a christian and dosn't claim to be one, is that not denying Christ?

A good tree with good fruit is a true christian. A bad tree with bad fruit is someone who is not a true christian. And what did Jesus say about bad trees with bad fruit?

"Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."

VCViking · Dec 29, 2007

2theBone said:
Not only that......God agrees with me.

We laugh about it often.

Are you sure it's God?

2 Corinthians 11:14

14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.

15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

VCViking · Dec 29, 2007

Soul Searcher said:
This is a type of judgment that none of us should make.

That's not what God's Word says..

Soul Searcher · Dec 29, 2007

VCViking said:
You may be aware of those scriptures but do you know what they mean? What is good fruit to you?

kindness, gentleness, humility, mercy, compassion, meekness, forgiveness, love.

No. It's based on their fruits. But if someone is a christian and dosn't claim to be one, is that not denying Christ?

No of course not. deny means to deny it does not mean to not affirm. If you asked me straight up do I believe in Jesus and I said no that would be deny and in my case it would be a lie as well. If you don't ask and I don't say then certianly I have not denied anything at all and if you ask and I do not answer I have not denied anything at all.

A good tree with good fruit is a true christian. A bad tree with bad fruit is someone who is not a true christian. And what did Jesus say about bad trees with bad fruit?

He said that a bad tree can not produce good fruit, the good fruit being love and pretty much all of us Christian and non do love to some degree and therefore it would seem that there are no bad trees just many that need some pruning in order to yield more fruit.

Soul Searcher · Dec 29, 2007

VCViking said:
That's not what God's Word says..

.. I assume you are talking about one of the books called the bible.

Why do so many so called christains find a need to judge others in such ways? Do they not know that the person they judge today may be the one who sets in judgment of them tomorrow?

Giver · Dec 29, 2007

Jet_A_Jockey said:
In that case, if you had a job or bills to pay or any other responsibilities then I'm sure you dropped them all, because the hour is near is it not?

Forgive me but your type of theology here looks more harmful than beneficial, its no different than letting your brethren starve in order to observe the sabbath.

No you are wrong. It is a matter of what comes first ones love of God or ones love of people

Zecryphon · Dec 29, 2007

Soul Searcher said:
.. I assume you are talking about one of the books called the bible.

Why do so many so called christains find a need to judge others in such ways? Do they not know that the person they judge today may be the one who sets in judgment of them tomorrow?

We are commanded to judge others within the church body. See 1 Corinthians 5:12-13.

1Co 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 1Co 5:13 God judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you."

Also see Matthew 18:15-20, that deals with church discipline.

Mat 18:15 "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. Mat 18:16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. Mat 18:17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Mat 18:18 Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Mat 18:19 Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them."

How can we as a church body carry out church discipline if we cannot first judge someone to determine whether they have sinned or not?

Soul Searcher · Dec 29, 2007

Zecryphon said:
We are commanded to judge others within the church body. See 1 Corinthians 5:12-13.

1Co 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 1Co 5:13 God judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you."

Also see Matthew 18:15-20, that deals with church discipline.

Mat 18:15"If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.Mat 18:16But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.Mat 18:17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.Mat 18:18Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.Mat 18:19Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.Mat 18:20For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them."

How can we as a church body carry out church discipline if we cannot first judge someone to determine whether they have sinned or not?

Did you bother to read what you posted.. If your brother sins against you go and tell him his fault... hmm this is not at alll what I was refering to. It also says elsewhere in Matthew that we are to forgive them for the tresspass and elsewhere it says that we are to forgive and forgive and forgive, ....

I also find the note about tax collector to be very interesting seeing as how the book in question is said to have been written by a tax collertor that is held in very high esteem as a servant of God.. Somehow coming from him that does not make any sense.

And of course it says judge not, it seems to me the jist of the passage is that if someone is doing you wrong you should try to help them understand that they are doing so. Not judge them, but educate them so to speak.

Elsewhere we also see that when we judge we are to use righteous judgment? Can a man preform a righteous judgment who is himself not righteous? Can a man accurately judge the motives of another if he can not see into his heart?

When we get down to it what we have are some verses saying that we should not judge others and some that say we should. Judge not comes from Jesus, Judge comes from Paul. It seems that many Christains like to judge others and prefer Pauls version over that of Jesus. That does not make it right.

mont974x4 · Dec 29, 2007

Going to our brother does not exclude forgiving him. The fact is, if we really love him, we will forgive him but also show him the truth so that he won't continue in sin.

Don't misunderstand what it means to judge when it comes to our duty compared to Christs.

Soul Searcher · Dec 29, 2007

mont974x4 said:
Going to our brother does not exclude forgiving him. The fact is, if we really love him, we will forgive him but also show him the truth so that he won't continue in sin.

Don't misunderstand what it means to judge when it comes to our duty compared to Christs.

I guess the reality is that judge can be viewed as such a broad term that it is accurate to say that it is ok to judge, good to judge, required to judge, I have no problem with this however judgments are usually used attached to condemnations and this is were they become wrong.

We are not to hurt anyone for any reason.

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