We are not special

[elman]

If I am the one assigning value, which your retort has already granted, then I have a status that others do not have. Moreover, you can't grant others the same value, but I don't want to tell you why. I want ExistencePreceedsEssence to tell you why, specifically in terms of the non-relational character of death.
I forgot how fun Being and Time is.

Are you saying you cannot be other than selfish? You seem to be saying you can assign yourself value, but others cannot do that. I suspect I am misunderstanding because that does not make sense. What has the non relational character of death, whatever that means have to do with what we are talking about?

 

[The Nihilist]

Are you saying you cannot be other than selfish? You seem to be saying you can assign yourself value, but others cannot do that. I suspect I am misunderstanding because that does not make sense. What has the non relational character of death, whatever that means have to do with what we are talking about?

You necessarily cannot assign the same value to yourself as to others because you, as that which assigns value, cannot assign value to yourself. How can one value valuation? Yourself is what assigns value in everything, and it even assigns it to others. Existence will explain about the nonrelational character of death, I think.

 

[ExistencePrecedesEssence]

If I am the one assigning value, which your retort has already granted, then I have a status that others do not have. Moreover, you can't grant others the same value, but I don't want to tell you why. I want ExistencePreceedsEssence to tell you why, specifically in terms of the non-relational character of death.
I forgot how fun Being and Time is.

I got to page 26 and was totally lost.

 

[ExistencePrecedesEssence]

If you are going to assign value, it is a mistake to assign yourself as valuable and others as not valuable.

Theres a difference between assigning value to only yourself and not to others...this is where alot of trouble comes along with existentialism...in which we state that we only care for our individual "self" above all others...and that we have no social background or any rules to our philosophy...since the philosophy is based around the idea of a "nothingness" of choice and non-existent social boundries that conflict and confine us to a certain limit of our power. When someone observes the ideas of aburdist, and more so phenomenological ontologists(a contradiction of each other) you must know the entire background of the philosophy. When we say we we are thrown into a world that nothing matters, and that we must create purpose and pursue happiness for our own individual self, we do not only include our individual self.

When we make a decision its a decision on the basis that no other man can make for me, but all and all it is still a man that is making the decision and i make that decision on the basis of all humanity. "Man is the future of man" a precise statement that furthers this idea without me the decision would not be made by another and thus the decision would fall back into the nothingness of possiblity. Absurdists do not just condemn the non-existent purpose to human integrity and existence, but also of the non-existent essence that creates the individual....its not a preaching of "do whatever you want" its a statement that when you make a choice, you are not making it on the output of yourself and furthering yourself, but you are also fully aware of the situation of what your choice can have on man.

And what do you mean RP?

Do you mean Heideggers idea that no one can take my death away? A non-existent happening that exists and is the only possiblity that is an impossiblity to judge even though it happens.

 

[The Nihilist]

Do you mean Heideggers idea that no one can take my death away? A non-existent happening that exists and is the only possiblity that is an impossiblity to judge even though it happens.

From there to authentic judgment, but yes, essentially. I think I'm goign to reread that, I'm having trouble remembering it.

 

[ExistencePrecedesEssence]

From there to authentic judgment, but yes, essentially. I think I'm goign to reread that, I'm having trouble remembering it.

Ill have to read Being and Time on my own free time, Heidegger denied himself as being an existentialist...he wrote an essay to sartre explaining why. Its weird though, Heidegger denies being apart of it, but his book was one of the main persona's that Sartre got his ideas from.

 

[GenuineMonotheist]

I look at the size of the universe, 78 billion lightyears across (and thats just how far we can see. its actually bigger) and all the billions of galaxies within it. in our milky way alone there 500 million stars if not more.

You've established that there are many many possible worlds in a (from our common experience) unfathomably huge expanse.

i know that the probability of a planet having life on it is much smaller than a planet not having life but looking at the massiveness of our universe its absolutely impossible for me to think that we're alone, that we're special.

Why? That's like saying just because you have a huge pile of pennies, that the gumball sized (finely cut!) diamond sitting somewhere in the midst of that pile isn't anything special. Indeed, even IF there were several such diamonds...so what? Why can't they all be special?

In the end, this has nothing to do with what reason alone can tell you. Because in the end, even if we're only speaking hypothetically, we're obviously really talking about God, and what He values, what He would call "special." Well, I guess that's something only He could really weigh in on, right - though I think it's fair to say that the human inclination IS generally a "religious" one and is inclined to believe that the One/ones "up there" do care and do reciprocate certain types of behaviour...but again, that doesn't tell us much.

if there is a God, I have difficulty believing He would waste so much time on an insignifcant group of self destructive organisms when there is an entire universe to take care of.

Isn't that kind of like saying to a rich man with all sorts of time on his hands "why do you care so much about your little past times?" If he has all the time in the world, if he has nowhere else to be, insane wealth, etc....well, why not?

Well, if God has perfect attributes, then the whole question of "time" or "place" becomes completely inapplicable.

I look at the night sky and say to myself, there has to be soemthing more out there. This incredible existence of ours is beyond the simplistic view of one almighty being.

It sounds to me what you think of as being "almighty" is in fact quite small. Bigger than man perhaps, but still very small.

 

[GenuineMonotheist]

So? Such beliefs only transcribe the sadness of nihilism, since we have no purpose to the universe, we must create our own purpose to our self and our own kind....the only thing that matters is our kind. The only thing that matters is the individual me.

This is an opinion. In the end, created things only point to other created things. "The world" is very much a closed loop. This includes natural reasoning. But to say anything very specific about "purpose" or "right and wrong" is really something quite above and beyond this. This enters into things unseen. And that's not mystification, that is what they are. And we have no knowledge of the unseen in and of ourselves.

Ultimately what really matters from a logical standpoint is coherence. Ideas suceed or fail in the long run because of this. Internal consistancy is key.

I would argue that atheism is contrary to man's natural inclination, nor does it offer the most persuasive system or metaphore for life. We all interpret, so arguing that one man's interpretation is "mere projection" while pretending the atheist (or even Existentialist) is nothing but a naked observer of life is nonsense.

 

[GenuineMonotheist]

When i make a choice, i thus make it for all of man.

I guess this is true in the sense that what one does in the "real world" is a fact, and as such "other men" will just have to "deal with it."

Of course, that's why (at least in part) there are consequences for whatever we do, even if others do not know it - because in truth, none of us "lives on an island".

 

[GenuineMonotheist]

Jesus (GOD) died for me. I AM special.

Why would Jesus need to die for you?

 

[elman]

You necessarily cannot assign the same value to yourself as to others because you, as that which assigns value, cannot assign value to yourself. How can one value valuation? Yourself is what assigns value in everything, and it even assigns it to others. Existence will explain about the nonrelational character of death, I think.

I don't understand, but I can assume I am more valuable than an insect and my child and grandchild are more valuable than I am.

 

[elman]

Theres a difference between assigning value to only yourself and not to others...this is where alot of trouble comes along with existentialism...in which we state that we only care for our individual "self" above all others...and that we have no social background or any rules to our philosophy...since the philosophy is based around the idea of a "nothingness" of choice and non-existent social boundries that conflict and confine us to a certain limit of our power. When someone observes the ideas of aburdist, and more so phenomenological ontologists(a contradiction of each other) you must know the entire background of the philosophy. When we say we we are thrown into a world that nothing matters, and that we must create purpose and pursue happiness for our own individual self, we do not only include our individual self.

When we make a decision its a decision on the basis that no other man can make for me, but all and all it is still a man that is making the decision and i make that decision on the basis of all humanity. "Man is the future of man" a precise statement that furthers this idea without me the decision would not be made by another and thus the decision would fall back into the nothingness of possiblity. Absurdists do not just condemn the non-existent purpose to human integrity and existence, but also of the non-existent essence that creates the individual....its not a preaching of "do whatever you want" its a statement that when you make a choice, you are not making it on the output of yourself and furthering yourself, but you are also fully aware of the situation of what your choice can have on man.

And what do you mean RP?

Do you mean Heideggers idea that no one can take my death away? A non-existent happening that exists and is the only possiblity that is an impossiblity to judge even though it happens.

Our value is determined by our Creator and so is our purpose. Our job is not to assign value to ourselves or anyone. Our job is to find what our purpose for existing is and fulfil that purpose. If we do that creates value and if we do not we become less valuable.

 

[ExistencePrecedesEssence]

Our value is determined by our Creator and so is our purpose. Our job is not to assign value to ourselves or anyone. Our job is to find what our purpose for existing is and fulfil that purpose. If we do that creates value and if we do not we become less valuable.

Thats based of a purely christian aspect, while existentialism, of which i have just expressed is a purely atheistic reproach to christian aspects on life. Since then, christian ideas do not correlate with the perspectives of existentialism and thus my statement. It is though a free based philosophy(denial of standing my perspectives to one school of philosophical thought, finding most philosophical ideas totally unpurposeful to the individual, etc...) it does hold one value which is it is a purely atheistic concept.

 

[elman]

Thats based of a purely christian aspect, while existentialism, of which i have just expressed is a purely atheistic reproach to christian aspects on life. Since then, christian ideas do not correlate with the perspectives of existentialism and thus my statement. It is though a free based philosophy(denial of standing my perspectives to one school of philosophical thought, finding most philosophical ideas totally unpurposeful to the individual, etc...) it does hold one value which is it is a purely atheistic concept.

I don't assign the same value to that as you.

 

[ExistencePrecedesEssence]

I don't assign the same value to that as you.

Your attempting to concieve the philosophy through christian twists of the philosophy...which is an impossiblity because the entire base of the philosophy is that it is concieved from a purely atheistic perspective and christian outcomes and theories cannot correlate with it.

 

[us38]

I look at the size of the universe, 78 billion lightyears across (and thats just how far we can see.

How can the universe be 78 billion lightyears across if it's only 13.7 billion years old?

 

[L4T3R4LUS]

I look at the size of the universe, 78 billion lightyears across (and thats just how far we can see. its actually bigger) and all the billions of galaxies within it. in our milky way alone there 500 million stars if not more.
i know that the probability of a planet having life on it is much smaller than a planet not having life but looking at the massiveness of our universe its absolutely impossible for me to think that we're alone, that we're special. if there is a God, I have difficulty believing He would waste so much time on an insignifcant group of self destructive organisms when there is an entire universe to take care of.
I look at the night sky and say to myself, there has to be soemthing more out there. This incredible existence of ours is beyond the simplistic view of one almighty being.

God is pure spirit. Spirit has no form therefore it is enabled to envelope or encompass all of existence. There is not a crack or crevase that the spirit does not know about or encounter. Even within ourselves, this spirit can be found--that knows our very thoughts, wants and desires. You give God too little credit, as the God that we encounter is infinitesmal; and being so, is capable of acts of love that we can only scratch the surface of. God as a whole, God as pure spirit, brings life into "his" arms and cradles us during this portion of our lives, the physical reality.

God is love, so whereever life is expressing love--to eachother and to ourselves, is where God is acting or where the spirit is active. To say that we're so small and insignificant; as to say that we are without purpose, so small and yet so destructive--is not what God intends. So whereever love is at work, there God is at work, and in our presence.

To look at the stars and ponder, how or why?--is the great question. But to realize that being so big, the universe, to God--is relatively small; as God is only concerned with life. The value of life, however so small and insignificant. God on a magnificant power cannot be understood, in the way of relativity--what is relative to our perception. Being infinite mind, in spirit, God is able to touch life whereever it may be; for God is love and the mere act of compassion or act of love is God--how God manifests himself.

 

[ExistencePrecedesEssence]

God is pure spirit. Spirit has no form therefore it is enabled to envelope or encompass all of existence. There is not a crack or crevase that the spirit does not know about or encounter. Even within ourselves, this spirit can be found--that knows our very thoughts, wants and desires. You give God too little credit, as the God that we encounter is infinitesmal; and being so, is capable of acts of love that we can only scratch the surface of. God as a whole, God as pure spirit, brings life into "his" arms and cradles us during this portion of our lives, the physical reality.

God is love, so whereever life is expressing love--to eachother and to ourselves, is where God is acting or where the spirit is active. To say that we're so small and insignificant; as to say that we are without purpose, so small and yet so destructive--is not what God intends. So whereever love is at work, there God is at work, and in our presence.

To look at the stars and ponder, how or why?--is the great question. But to realize that being so big, the universe, to God--is relatively small; as God is only concerned with life. The value of life, however so small and insignificant. God on a magnificant power cannot be understood, in the way of relativity--what is relative to our perception. Being infinite mind, in spirit, God is able to touch life whereever it may be; for God is love and the mere act of compassion or act of love is God--how God manifests himself.

God is spirit and god is love? Are you implying that love is a contingent idea based on the contingent idea of the spirit?

You ponder "why" because you are conscious of your existence "I think, therefore i am" the consciousness is what allows us to realize "we are" as "individual beings" in existence.

 

[L4T3R4LUS]

God is spirit and god is love? Are you implying that love is a contingent idea based on the contingent idea of the spirit?

You ponder "why" because you are conscious of your existence "I think, therefore i am" the consciousness is what allows us to realize "we are" as "individual beings" in existence.

There is a spirit of love that works through us. All I know is what Jesus says, God is pure spirit and God is love. If God is both of these things then, yes, they are contingent.

 

[The Nihilist]

Our value is determined by our Creator and so is our purpose. Our job is not to assign value to ourselves or anyone. Our job is to find what our purpose for existing is and fulfil that purpose. If we do that creates value and if we do not we become less valuable.

The reason that this is nonsense is that you can't consistently talk about human beings having a purpose, because there is nothing for which a person is ultimately good for. That is, those things that have a purpose have a purpose because they have a purpose for us.

And goodness gracious, where can you possibly imagine that I could find my purpose? Is it under the sofa? When someone "finds his purpose," isn't he really just assigning one to himself?