We are not PAUL-IANS we are CHRIST-IANS lol We should be like Paul, being faithful to God and Christ, not following Paul's footsteps, but the footsteps of CHRIST just like Paul did.
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The answer to that is BOTH. They do not disagree unless you start prooftexting and ignoring context. A concordance is like fire: it's a great tool, but can be very destructive if used improperly.
BryanW92 said:I didn't say that there aren't "calls to action". I am saying that action/works are not a part of salvation. They are one of the fruits of salvation. A heart transformed by Christ feels a need to do good works. A heart transformed by Christ feels a need to work for sanctification. In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus describes the perfect human state. Who knows how many times he gave that sermon (remember that he was an itinerant preacher) but you get the idea that it was an important one. Yet, after preaching about this state of perfection that seems to call for works as the path to salvation, he still knew that he needed to die for us.
It can't be said often enough, if man could work his way to salvation, then there would have not been any need for the cross. The cross offends those who think themselves to be righteous because they see it as something that defiles heaven by letting in the unclean and unworthy.
But I can't believe that he was saying "do nothing, just believe that Jesus is the Son of God". That doesn't line up with the cornerstone at all, no matter how many ways you try to twist it.
Ascendo said:Since no one else has: can you please explain the thief on the cross?
Since no one else has: can you please explain the thief on the cross?
Since no one else has: can you please explain the thief on the cross?
Sir, what is it about that this (Luke 23:32-43) passage that you need help with the explanation of? I assume I missed the gist of an earlier post (I did read them all, but I think I missed something).
Your brother in Christ,
---Sam
My question was in response to the assertion that salvation is Christ + works. That idea doesn't have any way to explain the thief on the cross.
Jesus saved the thief on the cross. The thief did nothing other than acknowledge Jesus. What was in the thief's heart at that moment? I have no idea.
Making doctrinal statements that add or subtract "stuff" to what we see in the Bible is dangerous. I would say the same to verses where it seems like we need to earn our salvation.
I don't pretend to have an exact answer where "saving" happens, but when we try to reduce salvation to a formula we're missing the point.
My question was in response to the assertion that salvation is Christ + works. That idea doesn't have any way to explain the thief on the cross.
Jesus saved the thief on the cross. The thief did nothing other than acknowledge Jesus. What was in the thief's heart at that moment? I have no idea.
Making doctrinal statements that add or subtract "stuff" to what we see in the Bible is dangerous. I would say the same to verses where it seems like we need to earn our salvation.
I don't pretend to have an exact answer where "saving" happens, but when we try to reduce salvation to a formula we're missing the point.
Agreed. Salvation is based purely on the grace of God, we can never ever earn it. It seems to me that works (after our salvation) are a reflection of that grace in our lives.
Very, very true!
We need works brother. Works that help us improve with our walk with Christ. The works Christ and the disciples talked about how we must avoid and is not worthy for salvation, is the works that are done of the flesh, self-fulfillmen, self-righteousness, works that make us look clean in the outside but remain sinners in the inside.
I was born Jewish, and the message of Jesus was directed to our leaders of the time, and made an example out of the Pharisees. They where HYPOCRITES ! Making themselves RIGHTEOUS and pretending to follow the Law.
Are we Christians the same? Making ourselves GLORIOUS unto the Kingdom of God, but deep within are HYPOCRITES because we don't stay obedient to the teachings of Christ??
Where's our Cross Christians??
May I humbly offer that indeed, we do need works, but not as a means of salvation, rather as evidence of God working in our lives. We do works because Jesus has placed in the believer's heart a desire to nurture and grow His Church.
Yes, I agree. We cant Work on our salvation unless we put faith in God. That's why the first thing Jesus said was, "REPENT !! For the kingdom of God is near." It is God's grace where it all starts, salvation is a DAILY WORK.
Just like Paul did, he carried the cross DAILY. He worked on his IMPERFECTIONS DAILY.
Something most if not all Christians lack because of this "Modern Christian Trend" of salvation through "faith/grace" and not of works, that satisfies our fleshly minds.
I love your enthusiasm brother! However, a little more scriptural fact checking would be helpful.
Actually, the first recorded statement made by Jesus said is found in Luke 2:49 - And He said to them, “Why did you seek Me? Did you not know that I must be about My Father’s business?” (NKJV)
Please be very careful with words like "We cant Work on our salvation unless we put faith in God" they could easily be misinterpreted. I assume you are talking about the continuation of the salvation already granted, not in obtaining salvation through works. I would refer you to Philippians 2:12,13 -Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.
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