We are not magically saved simply by believing.

[Jeo7]

Jesus The Christ was very specific with this. He said things like, "Why do you call me 'Lord Lord' and do not do the things I say?"....So what are these such things he said? His teachings. We are saved through the teachings of Jesus, not by a magical claim we Christians make. Jesus said things like, "Carry your cross ! And with it sacrifice the flesh daily !" We are a living sacrifice to God, Jesus taught us how to go and...."Sin no more !" He showed us how to..."Be perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect" and, "Be Holy because I'm Holy".....So where's our cross Christians? Yes I imply this to myself as well. Where's our cross?
We are not saved by magically proclaiming his name, or believing he died on the cross for our sins....we are saved by FOLLOWING THE FOOTSTEPS OF OUR MESSIAH. Imitating his life, his way, his Truth. Jesus The Christ is the EXAMPLE how we must live, he is the EXAMPLE of our sacrifice, and the EXAMPLE of our own salvation. Carry your own cross he said. You are the light of the world he said...... "let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven." - Jesus The Christ

 

[spr]

We are saved by faith.

Eph2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--

Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
2.Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
3.Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
4.Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."
5.Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
6.Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
7.Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
8.Gal. 2:21, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.
9.Gal. 3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
10.Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."
11.Eph. 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. 9Not by works, lest any man should boast."
12.Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."

 

[Jeo7]

We are saved by faith.

Eph2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--

Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
2.Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
3.Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
4.Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."
5.Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
6.Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
7.Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
8.Gal. 2:21, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.
9.Gal. 3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
10.Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."
11.Eph. 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. 9Not by works, lest any man should boast."
12.Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."

Of course !!! If we don't have faith how can we start our salvation!? The message of Paul and the disciples was to spread the WORD of salvation, but the message itself is NOT salvation. Sadly, we Christians take it as our path to salvation. Do we listen to Christ or Paul?

 

[tremble]

Do we listen to Christ or Paul?

Paul himself said that if he preaches any other message than what Christ preached, then we should curse him. But I don't think Paul did preach a different message.

I agree with Jeo that Jesus' teachings are important. How can we follow Jesus if we don't obey him? Our obedience proves our faith.

Sure, there is nothing we can do to earn salvation, but then again, I think it's unlikely that God will give salvation to people to argue that they never got around to obeying Jesus because they didn't want to be guilty of earning their salvation.

As for the "magical claim", I think Jeo is referring to the sinners prayer. Again, I agree that there is a lot more to Christianity than the prayer, but I think it's hard for anyone to put a finger on that exact moment when salvation is granted, especially when trying to do so for other people.

 

[pyramid33]

I never called it magic.

 

[Tigger45]

Do we listen to Christ or Paul?

Both.

John 14:6 Jesus said to them, "I am the way, the truth, and the life..."

Life is a paradox and so if the Lord of life.

 

[dragongunner]

Believing leads to Acts 2:38, which leads to Salvation, which is by Grace because we have Faith. Because of Faith we follow Christ and seek his will for our lives. Believing and acting on that leads one to Christ. Believing but never acting on it leads no where. "Do you believe in one God? The devil also believeth and trembles." So we see that the Devil believes in God, but is not saved. But belief acted upon does.....we are indeed saved by Grace. But what does Grace mean.......? I searched that out many years ago,....but that would be another thread.

 

[revrobor]

Jesus The Christ was very specific with this. He said things like, "Why do you call me 'Lord Lord' and do not do the things I say?"....So what are these such things he said? His teachings. We are saved through the teachings of Jesus, not by a magical claim we Christians make. Jesus said things like, "Carry your cross ! And with it sacrifice the flesh daily !" We are a living sacrifice to God, Jesus taught us how to go and...."Sin no more !" He showed us how to..."Be perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect" and, "Be Holy because I'm Holy".....So where's our cross Christians? Yes I imply this to myself as well. Where's our cross?
We are not saved by magically proclaiming his name, or believing he died on the cross for our sins....we are saved by FOLLOWING THE FOOTSTEPS OF OUR MESSIAH. Imitating his life, his way, his Truth. Jesus The Christ is the EXAMPLE how we must live, he is the EXAMPLE of our sacrifice, and the EXAMPLE of our own salvation. Carry your own cross he said. You are the light of the world he said...... "let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven." - Jesus The Christ

So are you? It sound a little like you are preaching salvation by works.

 

[spr]

This is an explanation of what the book of James is actually saying when they are talking about work. Some people try to use it to say we need work also to be saved.

We are saved by faith alone, not by faith and works | Salvation and works | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

The crux of the argument in that article is that James references this scripture: "and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, and Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness." Meaning that he affirms that righteousness is by faith alone.

So when he says faith he is being almost sarcastic, as if to say: whatever faith it is that has no works was never a true faith in the first place because an actual conversion results in a changed life.

 

[BryanW92]

Jesus The Christ was very specific with this. He said things like, "Why do you call me 'Lord Lord' and do not do the things I say?"....So what are these such things he said? His teachings. We are saved through the teachings of Jesus, not by a magical claim we Christians make. Jesus said things like, "Carry your cross ! And with it sacrifice the flesh daily !" We are a living sacrifice to God, Jesus taught us how to go and...."Sin no more !" He showed us how to..."Be perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect" and, "Be Holy because I'm Holy".....So where's our cross Christians? Yes I imply this to myself as well. Where's our cross?
We are not saved by magically proclaiming his name, or believing he died on the cross for our sins....we are saved by FOLLOWING THE FOOTSTEPS OF OUR MESSIAH. Imitating his life, his way, his Truth. Jesus The Christ is the EXAMPLE how we must live, he is the EXAMPLE of our sacrifice, and the EXAMPLE of our own salvation. Carry your own cross he said. You are the light of the world he said...... "let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven." - Jesus The Christ

You are right that we are not saved by a magical claim that we make. We are also not saved by anything that we do. Our "good deeds" are but filthy rags to God. Do you really think that God who can create a universe just by saying that it really keeps count of your deeds? How many old ladies do you have to help across the street wipes out your life of sin?

We are saved by pure grace that is bestowed up on us by God. By accepting his Son, you are accepting God's very existence. He sent us Jesus, and it was written in the bible so that future generations could know Jesus. Anyone who hears of Jesus and refuses to believe is calling God a liar.

So, God does all the work. All you have to do is believe...really believe, and not just accept that Jesus was a great philosopher or prophet, and that God isn't just some random event in the universe.

The good deeds are a physical manifestation of the changes that are performed on you by God's Grace. They are not the coin by which you purchase grace.

 

[Sketcher]

We're saved by grace, through faith, and the veracity of that is evidenced by our words and deeds.

 

[Jeo7]

So are you? It sound a little like you are preaching salvation by works.

My friend. Sounds like I'm quoting Jesus lol Who sounds like he's telling us to be saved by works.
We must work out our own salvation. With FAITH, but never the less, is a WORK we must do. It's what Jesus taught, how can we call ourselves Christians if we don't work on ourselves?

 

[Jeo7]

You are right that we are not saved by a magical claim that we make. We are also not saved by anything that we do. Our "good deeds" are but filthy rags to God. Do you really think that God who can create a universe just by saying that it really keeps count of your deeds? How many old ladies do you have to help across the street wipes out your life of sin?

We are saved by pure grace that is bestowed up on us by God. By accepting his Son, you are accepting God's very existence. He sent us Jesus, and it was written in the bible so that future generations could know Jesus. Anyone who hears of Jesus and refuses to believe is calling God a liar.

So, God does all the work. All you have to do is believe...really believe, and not just accept that Jesus was a great philosopher or prophet, and that God isn't just some random event in the universe.

The good deeds are a physical manifestation of the changes that are performed on you by God's Grace. They are not the coin by which you purchase grace.

Is that really what Jesus taught? When he said things like, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." Again, the message about salvation is not the message of salvation. Paul had a mission, to deliver the MESSAGE OF SALVATION. Jesus is who saves, and we are saved through his teachings and examples.
We christians choose a state of contempt by thinking we are saved, but continuing sinning. We cant be children of God if we continue to sin.

 

[spr]

Jesus was encouraging people to embrace their faith because he knew without a shadow of a doubt that it would be life and great reward in this life, and infinitely more in the next. He wasn't telling them their salvation was contingent upon their works.

Imagine there was only one job around that you could get and you didn't have the money to go to school, so you had to work that job. And they constantly threatened to fire you for any and every imperfection in your work. You would probably be so rattled by their threats you couldn't even get the work done properly. A little peace of mind goes a long way, and God knows that better than any of us.

 

[Jeo7]

Jesus was encouraging people to embrace their faith because he knew without a shadow of a doubt that it would be life and great reward in this life, and infinitely more in the next. He wasn't telling them their salvation was contingent upon their works.

Imagine there was only one job around that you could get and you didn't have the money to go to school, so you had to work that job. And they constantly threatened to fire you for any and every imperfection in your work. You would probably be so rattled by their threats you couldn't even get the work done properly. A little peace of mind goes a long way, and God knows that better than any of us.

It sounds like an excuse to better ourselves as CHRIST - followers. That is NOT the message written in the scriptures, specially of that of Jesus. Jesus showed us with his life, his blood, his sacrifices for is to follow his footsteps. 1 Peter 2:21
Children of God dont sin.

 

[BryanW92]

Is that really what Jesus taught? When he said things like, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." Again, the message about salvation is not the message of salvation. Paul had a mission, to deliver the MESSAGE OF SALVATION. Jesus is who saves, and we are saved through his teachings and examples.
We christians choose a state of contempt by thinking we are saved, but continuing sinning. We cant be children of God if we continue to sin.

Every couple of months, some person comes through here who preaches the doctrine of works-based salvation. Like you, they claim that one cannot be a child of God if they sin. Often, the do not call it "works-based salvation" but that is what they describe when they preach their theology to us.

You can find some verses that do support that theology. But, overall, the whole text of the New Testament disagrees with you. If Paul had a mission of salvation that disagrees with the teaching of Jesus, then Paul was not only wrong, he was evil! That's another characteristic of the works-based people who come through here: they claim that Paul is wrong and Jesus is right.

If a state of sinlessness was possible, then the Cross was not necessary. Even if you claim that the Holy Spirit makes you sinless, then there was no need for the Cross. Jesus could have simply died a natural death after a long ministry and given us the Holy Spirit if that's all it took.

Christ redeems sinners. He propitiates our sin. He nailed the law to the Cross and reconciled us with God. He did all the Works. That is the Good News of the Gospel.

 

[spr]

If children of God don't sin, how do you explain the sins of the patriarchs to whom Paul often references.

David sinned, and God called him a man after God's own heart.

 

[spr]

Not to say that Christians can't reach a state in which they do not sin (see first john). But the way to get there is not under the axe of the loss of salvation.

 

[Jeo7]

If children of God don't sin, how do you explain the sins of the patriarchs to whom Paul often references.

David sinned, and God called him a man after God's own heart.

Exactly. Isn't that the reason Jesus came? The Messiah? The Christ? To show us a WAY of Salvation? What do you think the cross is all about? Did he died on the cross for no reason? Or to show us how is done???

 

[Jeo7]

Every couple of months, some person comes through here who preaches the doctrine of works-based salvation. Like you, they claim that one cannot be a child of God if they sin. Often, the do not call it "works-based salvation" but that is what they describe when they preach their theology to us.

You can find some verses that do support that theology. But, overall, the whole text of the New Testament disagrees with you. If Paul had a mission of salvation that disagrees with the teaching of Jesus, then Paul was not only wrong, he was evil! That's another characteristic of the works-based people who come through here: they claim that Paul is wrong and Jesus is right.

If a state of sinlessness was possible, then the Cross was not necessary. Even if you claim that the Holy Spirit makes you sinless, then there was no need for the Cross. Jesus could have simply died a natural death after a long ministry and given us the Holy Spirit if that's all it took.

Christ redeems sinners. He propitiates our sin. He nailed the law to the Cross and reconciled us with God. He did all the Works. That is the Good News of the Gospel.

Ok. It's simple. First, I did not quote my own words, but the words of Jesus. If you get an impression of salvation through works, it is because of what the scriptures say, not me. Now, the "WORKS" that Jesus and Paul and the disciples talked about was the self-righteousness of the Pharisees and Leaders of the Jews. Because remember what Jesus said, that we must be RIGHTEOUS to enter the Kingdom. The WORKS that we must avoid is the WORKS of self fulfillment, self righteousness, the works that are merely done by exterior deeds to hide what's interior of ourselves.
We are saved by WORKS people, the Works that we do WITHIN us. Improving ourselves as human beings, and most importantly, as FOLLOWERS OF CHRIST.
There's a huge difference. Carry your cross he said.