We Are NOT Entitled to Success - Obama

[Quincunx]

Comrade Obama will have everyone working at Chinese wages after 4 more years.

LOL! You don't know how American industry works do you?

Here's a hint: a CEO of a major corporation doesn't take orders from Obama. They started offshoring jobs decades ago.

THAT is what drives down wages.

Really. Pay attention to how the US operates. If you want to sound like a real American, then at least try to pay attention to how the system works.

After 4 years of Obama, the rich are richer, and the poor are poorer.

Wow, you don't even really know history from the past 30 years or so do you?

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

LOL! You don't know how American industry works do you?

Here's a hint: a CEO of a major corporation doesn't take orders from Obama. They started offshoring jobs decades ago.

THAT is what drives down wages.

Really. Pay attention to how the US operates. If you want to sound like a real American, then at least try to pay attention to how the system works.





Wow, you don't even really know history from the past 30 years or so do you?

Yes I have seen this data, but you really didn't address my post, which is apparent from your chart ending in 2007.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Wow....that sounds so Occupy Wall Street'ish.

Wow! What a refutation! I feel humbled by the sheer intellectual prowess of your guilt-by-association fallacy.

 

[1whirlwind]

Wow! What a refutation! I feel humbled by the sheer intellectual prowess of your guilt-by-association fallacy.

And I by your "sacred feminism." LOL.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

And I by your "sacred feminism." LOL.

Oh yes, serenade me with the awfulness of your ad hominem arguments! I'm sure you can aim even lower than that. Come on, give it a try.

 

[Cromulent]

Oh yes, serenade me with the awfulness of your ad hominem arguments! I'm sure you can aim even lower than that. Come on, give it a try.

Who's going to be the first to Godwin this thread? (I'm looking at you, Orange County Chopper!)

 

[Quincunx]

Yes I have seen this data, but you really didn't address my post, which is apparent from your chart ending in 2007.

No, the fact that the chart ends at 2007 has no bearing on my point. My point is that The wealth gap has been growing and growing by leaps and bounds for the past 30 years.

You said that after 4 years of Obama the rich are richer and the poor poorer. I merely wanted you to see that this trend is nothing new and nothing unique to Obama.

So in order to lay it on Obama's shoulders then you have to explain how the exact same effect was seen in every presidency over the past 30 years.

I especially like the BIG kick upward after Bush enacted his tax cut

I'm actually annoyed that Obama caved and did exactly what the Republicans wanted by extending those tax cuts!

So, ironically, when Obama acts like a Republican the rich get richer!

Hmmm,....so tell me how this means a Republican in the White House is going to "solve" this issue.

 

[Thekla]

Comrade Obama will have everyone working at Chinese wages after 4 more years. Well, except for the Politburo. After 4 years of Obama, the rich are richer, and the poor are poorer.

Lowering incomes to 'match China's wages' is an effect of outsourcing and trimming done by onshore industry (both used by Bain under Romney, btw).

 

[Thekla]

What? on earth does that have to do with me paying school taxes when I have never had children????

Again, have you reimbursed the govt. for paying for your education ?

When you own property, you take that property out of use for some other potentially productive use. You are free to use your property to add value to the economy, or not. Either way, property taxes are based on the potential productive capacity of the property -- and you did not create the property, and most property owners did not supply the infrastructure that makes the property habitable (water, sewage) and accessible (roads).

The tax on the property can be used any way the govt. deems fit - most just happen to use it for education -- which is productive and adds value to the economy in the form of potentially more productive citizens. Their future productivity will help maintain and create the infrastructure that adds value to property.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Lowering incomes to 'match China's wages' is an effect of outsourcing and trimming done by onshore industry (both used by Bain under Romney, btw).

I personally met with our US Congressman from my district in Alabama for over 4 hours, and we gave him a factory tour. He asked me over and over again about how we could acquire this machiine or that machine from US sources, and I had to admit there were none. He seemed very intent on insourcing work back to the states. The GOP wants US jobs, and Romney is part of the GOP.

I also personally write my US Senators and Congressmen at least once a month to let them know how I stand on issues. Everyone should get more involved.

 

[SharonL]

This is obvious every time he opens his mouth along with all of his administration . I have never seen such jealously from so many people. It's ok that they can skim off whatever they want for their own pockets, but the people who really work for it should not be allowed to keep it. All of them leave office as millionaires. Never in the history of America has anyone had to apologize for being successful. It's almost as if they feel guilty for working their hind ends off and made a success because of all the gimmie, gimmie crowd spewing hate because you are successful.

 

[Thekla]

I personally met with our US Congressman from my district in Alabama for over 4 hours, and we gave him a factory tour. He asked me over and over again about how we could acquire this machiine or that machine from US sources, and I had to admit there were none. He seemed very intent on insourcing work back to the states. The GOP wants US jobs, and Romney is part of the GOP.

I also personally write my US Senators and Congressmen at least once a month to let them know how I stand on issues. Everyone should get more involved.

Actually, that is not only the interest of the GOP - and why there has been talk and proposals from this administration for tax breaks for companies 'onshoring'.



Romney, as before, was perfectly happy to undermine the US economy. Whether or not he's part of the GOP is irrelevant -- he can't keep the same position from one moment to the next.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Actually, that is not only the interest of the GOP - and why there has been talk and proposals from this administration for tax breaks for companies 'onshoring'.



Romney, as before, was perfectly happy to undermine the US economy. Whether or not he's part of the GOP is irrelevant -- he can't keep the same position from one moment to the next.

Sorry, I don't find what Romney proposes to do as President to be anything but helpful to the US economy. Nor do I think Mitt Romney has undermined the US economy in the past. Even if the worst allegations of Bain are true, it didn't destroy our economy. What is holding our economy back is the tax and spend policies of Barack Obama. Did you see in that thread where Obama's plan is to reduce $4T by increasing taxes $2T, and cutting medicare by $0.5T? That isn't $2.5 in cuts for $1 in taxes. Even if you count ending the wars as cuts (which is ridiculous), that is $1 in taxes for $1 in cuts. Even Bill Clinton thought this idea stupid.

 

[Quincunx]

I personally met with our US Congressman from my district in Alabama for over 4 hours, and we gave him a factory tour. He asked me over and over again about how we could acquire this machiine or that machine from US sources, and I had to admit there were none. He seemed very intent on insourcing work back to the states. The GOP wants US jobs, and Romney is part of the GOP.

Oh c'mon, man. It isn't the GOVERNMENT that makes these decisions. It is the business people!

If you run that factory you know that. You know your suppliers! Ask any of them at what point the Government came to them and said "YOU have to ship these jobs to CHINA!"

It doesn't happen that way.

Yes they may pay high taxes (on rare occasions when corporations do pay the full corporate tax they owe), but that's kind of part of being in the richest country in the world. If the owners of the factories that make your machines don't want to pay for this luxurious country and have to have immense growth rates in order to justify their business models that's the cost of doing business.

The woman I shared a cubicle with who had to train her Chinese replacement for a programming job wasn't doing it because the ebil Democrats put those jobs in China. It was because our BOARD OF DIRECTORS probably made some decision based on "opex".

The jobs go to China because China has cheap labor. That's called THE FREE MARKET. And it is the gospel of the GOP for the last 30 years or more.

FREEEEEEEE MARKET! No oversite! FREEEEEE!

If you hate Capitalism so much that you want to CENTRALLY CONTROL the labor market then you need to take down all that goofy "Obama as Communist" gifs you put in your sig file.

At least be consistent. Be intellectually one way or the other.

Don't DEMAND THAT YOUR CONGRESSMAN FIX THE MARKET FOR YOU and then complain when some democrat wants to fix the market in a different way!

 

[Quincunx]

Sorry, I don't find what Romney proposes to do as President to be anything but helpful to the US economy.

Well since Romney is proposing Trickle Down Economics and that has been shown to FAIL CONSISTENTLY over the past 30 years since Reagan's era, it appears your "opinion" is not necessarily grounded in evidence or fact.

Nor do I think Mitt Romney has undermined the US economy in the past. Even if the worst allegations of Bain are true, it didn't destroy our economy.

Bain Capital is like any investment firm: it does some good and some bad. Part of the "bad" is making money off of the buying and selling of companies. It doesn't really "make" anything itself.

As such sometimes Bain is exactly what is wrong with the country. Sometimes you have to liquidate jobs to get more return for investors. Sometimes you have to help a company ship jobs overseas and eliminate American jobs to help return money for the investors.

As they say in industry: It isn't personal, it's business.

I guarantee you when you hear that it's personal for someone.

What is holding our economy back is the tax and spend policies of Barack Obama.

So it was OK when Bush SPENT but didn't bother to bring in extra cash to pay?

Bush got us into two wars which were not paid for.

So when the bill comes due and we have to pay, suddenly it's the PAYING that is wrong???

Even if you count ending the wars as cuts (which is ridiculous)

You mean the wars Bush got us involved in and then didn't pay for and in fact left them OUT of budgetary estimates to make the numbers look good?

Sounds to me like cutting these unfunded "mandates" would be a savings.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Oh c'mon, man. It isn't the GOVERNMENT that makes these decisions. It is the business people!

If you run that factory you know that. You know your suppliers! Ask any of them at what point the Government came to them and said "YOU have to ship these jobs to CHINA!"

It doesn't happen that way.

Yes they may pay high taxes (on rare occasions when corporations do pay the full corporate tax they owe), but that's kind of part of being in the richest country in the world. If the owners of the factories that make your machines don't want to pay for this luxurious country and have to have immense growth rates in order to justify their business models that's the cost of doing business.

The woman I shared a cubicle with who had to train her Chinese replacement for a programming job wasn't doing it because the ebil Democrats put those jobs in China. It was because our BOARD OF DIRECTORS probably made some decision based on "opex".

The jobs go to China because China has cheap labor. That's called THE FREE MARKET. And it is the gospel of the GOP for the last 30 years or more.

FREEEEEEEE MARKET! No oversite! FREEEEEE!

If you hate Capitalism so much that you want to CENTRALLY CONTROL the labor market then you need to take down all that goofy "Obama as Communist" gifs you put in your sig file.

At least be consistent. Be intellectually one way or the other.

Don't DEMAND THAT YOUR CONGRESSMAN FIX THE MARKET FOR YOU and then complain when some democrat wants to fix the market in a different way!

You are wrong on several counts.

The state and federal goverment both can help business. While there has been outsourcing to China, look at insourcing. Alabama builds Mercedes and Toyota engines. South Carolina builds BMWs. Government did have a role in insourcing all this manufacturing work via negoiation of tax rates. I agree that states are best equipped to do this, but that ain't Obama's plan.

I didn't say I was asking my Congressmen to "fix the market". I write on a wide variety of issues, including my POV on Obamacare.

Obama either doesn't want to improve the market or doesn't know how. His policies have been very anti-business. Obama is all about a strong Federal government. Look at his job proposals - all involve government spending (and hence controlling people). He wants to take money from one group and give it to another. Redistribution of wealth. Socialism at best. Socialism is actually too nice a term for Obama - he is actually far worse.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Well since Romney is proposing Trickle Down Economics and that has been shown to FAIL CONSISTENTLY over the past 30 years since Reagan's era, it appears your "opinion" is not necessarily grounded in evidence or fact.



Bain Capital is like any investment firm: it does some good and some bad. Part of the "bad" is making money off of the buying and selling of companies. It doesn't really "make" anything itself.

As such sometimes Bain is exactly what is wrong with the country. Sometimes you have to liquidate jobs to get more return for investors. Sometimes you have to help a company ship jobs overseas and eliminate American jobs to help return money for the investors.

As they say in industry: It isn't personal, it's business.

I guarantee you when you hear that it's personal for someone.



So it was OK when Bush SPENT but didn't bother to bring in extra cash to pay?

Bush got us into two wars which were not paid for.

So when the bill comes due and we have to pay, suddenly it's the PAYING that is wrong???



You mean the wars Bush got us involved in and then didn't pay for and in fact left them OUT of budgetary estimates to make the numbers look good?

Sounds to me like cutting these unfunded "mandates" would be a savings.

I never supported Bush. I was an Independent during the last 20 years prior to Obama.

 

[Quincunx]

You are wrong on several counts.

OK.

The state and federal goverment both can help business.

What, through Central Planning, Comrade?

While there has been outsourcing to China, look at insourcing. Alabama builds Mercedes and Toyota engines.

Yes! There has been insourcing! Even Toyota built a giant plant in KY.

South Carolina builds BMWs.

Now you're going to explain why the machine manufacturers for the stuff you use in your factory can't be made in the USA?

Government did have a role in insourcing all this manufacturing work via negoiation of tax rates.

In the south that usually meant you guys gave away the farm in terms of such enormous sweetheart deals to corporations that you effectively gutted other parts of your own economy. I lived in the South for many years.

I agree that states are best equipped to do this, but that ain't Obama's plan.

Central Planning again, I see?

I didn't say I was asking my Congressmen to "fix the market". I write on a wide variety of issues, including my POV on Obamacare.

Well the very second healthcare becomes a normal market good then you just jump right in there and get it fixed!

Hey, just as an aside: without referring to Google, can you explain to me what a Positron Emission Tomography Scan is and why one would or would not need it? (If healthcare is a normal market good this should be a no brainer).

Obama either doesn't want to improve the market or doesn't know how.

Actually almost no one truly "knows" how. The problem with many on the Right is that they have no actual education beyond what is absolutely minimally required. As such many of them confuse their personal preference for an economic hypothesis with the idea that it is the ONLY economic hypothesis out there.

Keynsian vs Hayek seems to be one that flumoxes most on the Right.

I'm not trained in economics so I'm not willing to jump in and say one is ipso facto right and one is ipso facto wrong, but I see people say "Obama doesn't know what he's doing!" as if there's some OBVIOUSLY PROVEN MEANS TO FIX THESE SORTS OF THINGS!

FDR ran into the same problems in the Great Depression. Arguably little that he did actually "solved it", but at least it made it survivable. These debates have gone on for a century or more.

Now suddenly the Right is pretty sure they solved it and guess what...whatever Obama is doing is the WRONG thing! QED.

His policies have been very anti-business.

You mean like extending the Bush Tax cuts which are supposed to put more money in the hands of the job creators? Why was it a good idea under Bush but a bad idea under Obama?

I know, I know, I know, you business owners are all up in arms about paying healthcare costs so Obamacare scares the livin' daylights out of you. My suggestion is: Suck it up and man up! Join the rest of the world. We all have to make sacrifices! I'm willing to put up with higher tax rates and I've gotten used to working for a Fortune 500 company and having my wages stagnate for a LONG time now. Deal.

Obama is all about a strong Federal government.

You sound like you are in Alabama, so I understand that for you guys the Civil War really never ended. I learned that after nearly a decade living in various places in the South.

Look at his job proposals - all involve government spending

See, this is where you show your ignorance of the greater discussion. There are actually real economists with more degrees than you and I put together who feel this is precisely what a Chief Executive does when a country is teetering on the brink of a depression.

Yes! You see, you forget there are people on both sides of the debate and you just think because you fall on one side or the other that YOUR view is the only one that makes sense.

He wants to take money from one group and give it to another. Redistribution of wealth. Socialism at best. Socialism is actually too nice a term for Obama - he is actually far worse.

I rather assume from your points so far proffered that you don't really know much about these points.

 

[Illuminaughty]

If he had said that everyone IS entitled to success Republicans would be complaining about that being socialist.

 

[Quincunx]

If he had said that everyone IS entitled to success Republicans would be complaining about that being socialist.

This is precisely where the Right loses it! They basically undercut every single argument they have against Obama when they resort to this sort of silliness!

Romney is coming in with the gospel of Trickle Down Economics. But the Right forgets that in extending the Bush Tax Cuts OBAMA WAS DOING THE EXACT SAME THING!

So the Mitt-supporters are basically saying they are going to vote for the guy who will do almost the EXACT SAME THING OBAMA DID because they don't like what Obama has done!

And further they don't like what Obama has done because it is just extending in most cases what BUSH STARTED!