We are good because...

[troglodyte]

I think 'good' and kind people who aren't christian are one of the higher people on Earth. They are 'good' because their "heart" tells them to be that way.

 

[Helo]

I dont think one group of people being good is necissarily more meaningful than annother group being good.

I think there are certain people are good out of fear or desire for reward but I doubt theyre the majority

 

[katautumn]

Well, there is always the opposite of that. The smug, incompassionate, heartless Christians who spend their lives looking down their noses at the un-saved, but still get to spend eternity in the presence of God. That's one of the reasons I don't believe in a Christian God. I can't see any benevolence from a God who would grant entrance through the pearly gates for a man who was a disgusting pedophile and murderer his whole life, but said the sinner's prayer on his death bed and yet a kindhearted humanitarian who did nothing but kind and charitable deeds his whole life, but did not believe in the plan of salvation will be cast into hell for all eternity. Or a teenage girl who was not raised in a Christian home who dies long before her time. Or a ten year old little boy raised in a Buddhist home dies suddenly from an illness. In the meantime, someone like Osama Bin Laden could accept Christ and all will be forgiven on the day of judgement. Just doesn't seem like these are the acts of a kind, just and loving God.

 

[FSTDT]

I do what is right and good because I'm a rational creature who grasps the validity of my moral principles, so I'm committed to following them. Simple as pie.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Well, there is always the opposite of that. The smug, incompassionate, heartless Christians who spend their lives looking down their noses at the un-saved, but still get to spend eternity in the presence of God. That's one of the reasons I don't believe in a Christian God.

Why do you blame God for the actions of those who use His name ? If they were perfect they wouldnt need a savior . God demands complete perfection to enter heaven . No one can do it . No one is innocent . Without Christs perfect life being given in exchange for ours , we are all lost . One sin , one transgression , and one is lost .

 

[justanobserver]

picked the last option as it is the closest one that applies to me.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

I think 'good' and kind people who aren't christian are one of the higher people on Earth. They are 'good' because their "heart" tells them to be that way.

Why do you think christians that are 'good' are that way? We are because it is the right thing to do and God encourages it. God doesn't force us, but He does tell us the right path in which to take and even helps us to do it. You can never be truly 'good' w/o God.

 

[Helo]

Why do you blame God for the actions of those who use His name ?

Because a leader is responsible for the actions of his followers. Why does God get to escape responsiblity?

God demands complete perfection to enter heaven . No one can do it

In the words of a great man, "Riiiiiiiight"

 

[£amb]

I think 'good' and kind people who aren't christian are one of the higher people on Earth. They are 'good' because their "heart" tells them to be that way.

Hmm..so what if I was good and kind aaand a christian...

I would never consider myself higher than anybody else just because I was kind or good.

 

[FSTDT]

Why do you think christians that are 'good' are that way? We are because it is the right thing to do and God encourages it.

Lilly, I'm certain a large majority of Christians are good people at heart, but there are a few Christians who say things like this:

"I am not saying that every atheist feels obligated to go kill people. In fact, such an obligation (if not for the variable of self-interest) would make no sense. I’m saying that, to an atheist, there’s nothing wrong with killing people (since morality is nothing but subjective opinion). An atheist, if true to his title, sees nothing wrong with events like Columbine, September 11, the Oklahoma City bombing, etc."

Jedi, Christian Forums

"Guys! guys! guys! i'm not saying that atheists don't have morals or ethics , i'm saying that if 'I' were an atheist i wouldn't bother with them.... And once again...if i want to rape and pillage your village then why not! Can you give me a reason outside of christendom why i shouldn't do these things."

Brain Damage, Christian Forums

"If I truly believed in atheism and all of its implications, I would admire Hitler more than I would Gandhi."

aphiz17, Christian Forums

"If I were an atheist...

I'd live a life of debauchery and then commit suicide."

Orthodox_Freethinker, Internet Infidels

"['Hypothetically, if someone were to show you sufficient proof that it is likely that no deities exist, what would you do?']

I don't know, I guess I would probably have sex with as many pretty women as possible and cheat on my taxes and few other things that I thought I could get away with without getting caught. I would also try to make as much money as possible by just about any means possible, ie using other people as stepping stones. And just live for immediate gratification."

Ed, Internet Infidels

Everytime I read things like that, it tells me that the authors are completely amoral, and they are making the admission that they are the most sociopathic people on the planet. Apparently, these people would not stop themselves from vivisecting fully conscious humans, torturing infants through electrocution for months on end, exterminate an entire race or nation of people with white phosophorous; and when they talk to you, its hard not to think that these people would cut you into pieces and throw you on a grill for food...

...but, they dont do any of that. They go through the motions of moral behavior because they believe God is watching over their shoulders. I find absolutely frightening about people who say they would terrorize the planet if they believed for a second they could get away with it unpunished.

Of course, not all Christians are like that, but for those who are I find their motivations for moral behavior to be warped and ugly.

You can never be truly 'good' w/o God.

You dont know anything at all about atheists

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Lilly, I'm certain a large majority of Christians are good people at heart, but there are a few Christians who say things like this:











Everytime I read things like that, it tells me that the authors are completely amoral, and they are making the admission that they are the most sociopathic people on the planet. Apparently, these people would not stop themselves from vivisecting fully conscious humans, torturing infants through electrocution for months on end, exterminate an entire race or nation of people with white phosophorous; and when they talk to you, its hard not to think that these people would cut you into pieces and throw you on a grill for food...

...but, they dont do any of that. They go through the motions of moral behavior because they believe God is watching over their shoulders. I find absolutely frightening about people who say they would terrorize the planet if they believed for a second they could get away with it unpunished.

Of course, not all Christians are like that, but for those who are I find their motivations for moral behavior to be warped and ugly.


You dont know anything at all about atheists

Yeah, that's sad, yet truth...sadly.....

So, atheists never lie, cheat, steal, are selfish, get attituds, can be mean and obnoxious......etc.........like all of us? Humans are selfish and such......I don't care how many supposed good things you do you still fall short and do ugly things, like lie and etc.....which isn't good.

 

[katautumn]

Why do you blame God for the actions of those who use His name ?

A) How can I lay the blame on a God I do not believe in?
B) I didn't say all Christians were like that. I good number I have personally encountered are, but that doesn't mean there aren't kind hearted Christians as well. In fact, I have a great deal of respect for Billy Graham and his family. That's just one example.
C) I don't believe in the God of Judeo-Christianity because of personal reasons, spiritual soul searching on my part, studying the Bible and finding numerous inconsistencies in both the Scriptures and Christian doctrine.
D) Even if the only reason I didn't believe in your God was because of the actions of His people, I still feel that it's pretty valid reason. After all, how many heinous crimes are blamed on Satanism? How many heinous crimes are attributed to Islam and Allah?

If they were perfect they wouldnt need a savior .

I am a realist. I recognize that no one is perfect. No one is above harboring anger, hatred or displaying these emotions at the expense of others. It seems, however, that many Christians do this on a regular basis because they don't fear eternal retribution for their bad deeds.

God demands complete perfection to enter heaven . No one can do it . No one is innocent . Without Christs perfect life being given in exchange for ours , we are all lost . One sin , one transgression , and one is lost .

And like I illustrated in my first response, a just, benevolent God would not punish a person who lived a moral, good, charitable life and allow complete creeps to enter heaven based upon a prayer.

You can never be truly 'good' w/o God.

Not true. The Bible says no one is "good", even Christians. Christians are merely saved from eternal damnation:

Matthew 19:17 - And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Romans 3:12 - They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

 

[FSTDT]

So, atheists never lie, cheat, steal, are selfish, get attituds, can be mean and obnoxious......etc.........like all of us?

I dont remember saying any of that.

Humans are selfish and such......I don't care how many supposed good things you do you still fall short and do ugly things, like lie and etc.....which isn't good.

You have such a pessimistic view of humanity, and in fact its a view that even Jesus himself said that view of human nature was woefully misguided:
Mark 7:

14 "Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15 Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.' "

17 After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18 "Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? 19 For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")

20 He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21 For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' "​

Intention is more important than actions, likewise being a good person at heart makes a person more righteous than being a person who does nothing more than "goes through the motions" of good behavior. I believe Jesus taught that a person is a hypocrite for following the letter of law rather than the law in ones heart.

I tend to agree, it isnt sensible to claim that all people who occasionally lie or disobey their parents are no better off than murderers and child molestors. Not only is there a difference in the severity of their "wrongs", but the majority of us try very hard not to be wantonly immoral, we are in fact good people at heart, and thats what matters most.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

I dont remember saying any of that.


You have such a pessimistic view of humanity, and in fact its a view that even Jesus himself said that view of human nature was woefully misguided:
Mark 7:

14 "Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15 Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.' "

17 After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18 "Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? 19 For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")

20 He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21 For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' "​

Intention is more important than actions, likewise being a good person at heart makes a person more righteous than being a person who does nothing more than "goes through the motions" of good behavior.

I tend to agree, it isnt sensible to claim that all people who occasionally lie or disobey their parents are no better off than murderers and child molestors. Not only is there a difference in the severity of their "wrongs", but the majority of us try very hard not to be wantonly immoral, we are in fact good people at heart, and thats what matters most.

That's false. You will be judged on your actions. Even a child is judged by their actions whether they are good or not......

Pro 20:11 Even a child is known by his doings, whether his work be pure, and whether it be right.

I don't care what you mean to do, you sin and you do wrong. God isn't going to be like, "Oh, you lied and cheated and killed, but didn't mean it and rejected truth, but didn't mean it......so you can come into my kingdom......" No.


Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Plus, the Bible even says, faith w/o WORKS is dead, thus you must do the good actions to show your faith, just meaning well does nothing. Meaning to save someones life is meaningless if you do nothing and not meaning to kill someone when you killed them makes you no less at fault for doing that.........

Now, motives do play a role, but they aren't everything. God will bring into account motives AND actions. Not just motives. Motives alone aren't much weight.

 

[Spherical Time]

picked the last option as it is the closest one that applies to me.

I agree with this statment, and FSTDT's. I don't really agree with the options presented, as they don't really provide a cross section of beliefs on the matter.

 

[troglodyte]

then what do you believe?

 

[FSTDT]

I don't care what you mean to do, you sin and you do wrong. God isn't going to be like, "Oh, you lied and cheated and killed, but didn't mean it and rejected truth, but didn't mean it......so you can come into my kingdom......" No.

Can I ask you a question? Do you think that I do more evil than good?

Meaning to save someones life is meaningless, not meaning to kill someone when you killed them makes you no less at fault for doing that.........

How can you fault someone for something they never wanted to happen? The whole point of being responsible for your actions is that (1) you know what you are doing, and (2) your desires and intentions play some part in the outcome of your actions.

It sounds like you're saying if someone were trying to save a drowning child's life, but didnt make it in time, then that person is a murderer. That doesnt make sense at all.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Can I ask you a question? Do you think that I do more evil than good?


How can you fault someone for something they never wanted to happen? The whole point of being responsible for your actions is that (1) you know what you are doing, and (2) your desires and intentions play some part in the outcome of your actions.

It sounds like you're saying if someone were trying to save a drowning child's life, but didnt make it in time, then that person is a murderer. That doesnt make sense at all.

Yep........I think everyone does. What is sin? It's evil. Lying is evil, stealing is evil, wickedness is evil.......etc..... This is why you need God because only He can make you righteous and holy.

If you have a gun or weapon and don't plan on shooting someone, but you somehow accidently do, are you not at fault? That's what I'm saying. If you do an action, but your motives were one thing, your motives only count on part, they aren't the sole thing you will be judged on. If someone lies, but didn't mean to, did they still not lie? They did. You are responsible for your actions and the motives w/ them. But your motives alone don't get judged.

 

[Spherical Time]

then what do you believe?

I think that I would have divided the poll up into at least the following options:

1. I believe that morality must stem from God and is objective, and that I am good only because I am a Christian.
2. I believe that morality stems from God, but is not objective, and I am good because the morality proposed in the Bible makes sense.
3. I do not believe that morality stems from God, but that it is objective, and I am good because I am a good person.
4. I do not believe that morality stems from God and I think that it is subjective, and I am a good person because I think it is intrinsic to my nature.
5. I do not believe that morality stems from God and I think that it is subjective, and I follow moral obligations because it makes logical sense to do so.
6. I am not a person bound by morals.
7. My beliefs do not fall within those descibed above (explain below)

In that setup, I would choose 5.

Yeah, that's sad, yet truth...sadly.....

So, atheists never lie, cheat, steal, are selfish, get attituds, can be mean and obnoxious......etc.........like all of us? Humans are selfish and such......I don't care how many supposed good things you do you still fall short and do ugly things, like lie and etc.....which isn't good.

Uh, no, he never said any of that. Ever. Nor did he imply that. If you want to attack that argument, you should go look argue with those that claim that Christians are perfect . . . except that would mean arguing against yourself, so never mind.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Uh, no, he never said any of that. Ever. Nor did he imply that. If you want to attack that argument, you should go look argue with those that claim that Christians are perfect . . . except that would mean arguing against yourself, so never mind.

He responded to me saying, "You can never be truly 'good' w/o God."

Now, I was responding to his by saying that you can't be truly good. Slipping and sinning and living in sin, even if considered not 'bad' is still considered bad and not good to God and thus you aren't being truly 'good'. That's what I was saying.