We always do what we most want to do

[Paradoxum]

Hmm, so are you saying that we operate on two different levels, viz., the conscious and the unconscious? And so we might behave in a way that is driven by our unconscious desires at the expense of our conscious desires (or vice versa)? If that's the case, I wonder how it's determined which will "win" -- the conscious or unconscious? Can you think of an example that illustrates your point?

Well it would seem to be a scientific fact that the conscious is influenced by the unconscious. Sometimes we notice it, sometimes we don't.

I'm not sure I know enough about it to give an accurate scientific or psychological example though. But my basic point is something like: I might want to talk to someone, but if, because of the situation, my self-consciousness is felt too strongly, then it may stop me from acting as I want to. I would have to fight against feelings that aren't my choice, and sometimes that means losing.

I think there are other more subtle ways the subconscious affects the conscious though.

 

[sandwiches]

Maybe so. Do you agree or disagree with that assertion?

(Btw, your screen name reminds me of an old joke: Why can't you starve at the beach? Because of all the sand which is there!)

I disagree. I disagree that we do whatever we want to do most and that there's no selfless act. First off as has been pointed out, taking out the trash isn't doing what you want most, it's merely doing something you don't want to do to avoid an UNWANTED result or to arrive at something ELSE you do want most. Second, a selfless act is doing something that ignores your wellbeing for someone else's wellbeing, whether I feel satisfaction, pride, or happiness about that act is irrelevant. It's the fact that I put someone else's NEEDS before mine that matter.

 

[dysert]

E.g. sometimes I find myself ignoring those "ultimate long-term" goals in favour of doing that which I find immediately appealing - although fully being aware that it is conflicting with the "ultimate long-term" goals.

Hmm. I don't know if that's really a problem. Remember, I'm postulating that we do what we most want to do *now*. If now I prefer to sit on the couch, but I know I eventually want to be in shape, I'll still follow what I prefer even while knowing that the more I sit on the couch the less I'm inclined to hit my ultimate goal.

 

[dysert]

Personally, I disagree with you.

It's entirely possible for someone to do X when they feel a burning desire to do Y instead. One may argue that they had wanted to be lazy, but what if fear and self-doubt had been the cause? Did they really want to cave in to such forces? Or was there more of a kind of paralysis caused by a psychological inability to overcome those forces, perhaps due to a lack of inner strength?

I don't agree that we act simply on the basis of the strongest want. I'm not even certain that the strength of one's desires actually means all that much. While desires might suggest goals and provide motivations for acting on those goals, the prioritization of those goals in one's mind might not correspond in a strict way to the strengths of one's wants. One's judgment may have other ideas on how to make those prioritizations.

So, unless the strongest want is defined in hindsight (in a cheap tautological way) as "whatever motivated the resulting act", I don't think that it can be said that people always do what they most want to do.


eudaimonia,

Mark

But if someone has a "psychological inability to overcome those forces", then they aren't really faced with a decision. (I'd like to fly like a bird, but since I can't it doesn't factor into my decision making process.) Do you have an example (without the "psychological inability" situation) where you can think of someone doing something they really didn't want to do when they in fact had the choice to instead do something they'd rather do?

 

[dysert]

I disagree. I disagree that we do whatever we want to do most and that there's no selfless act. First off as has been pointed out, taking out the trash isn't doing what you want most, it's merely doing something you don't want to do to avoid an UNWANTED result or to arrive at something ELSE you do want most. Second, a selfless act is doing something that ignores your wellbeing for someone else's wellbeing, whether I feel satisfaction, pride, or happiness about that act is irrelevant. It's the fact that I put someone else's NEEDS before mine that matter.

I would say that you'd rather serve someone else than serve yourself. Assuming that's true, then you are still doing what you most prefer to do -- serve others.

Just like I take out the trash -- not because I like doing it, but because I prefer the ultimate outcome (my wife liking me) more than I dislike the chore.

 

[Eudaimonist]

But if someone has a "psychological inability to overcome those forces", then they aren't really faced with a decision.

Then it is not the case that people always do what they want. I have satisfied the conditions.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[sandwiches]

I would say that you'd rather serve someone else than serve yourself. Assuming that's true, then you are still doing what you most prefer to do -- serve others.

Just like I take out the trash -- not because I like doing it, but because I prefer the ultimate outcome (my wife liking me) more than I dislike the chore.

You asked if we did "what we most want to do." And I reiterate: No. I agree that we do what we think will lead us to our most desired outcome but the actions to get us there are not always "what we most want to do."

So, if you rephrase your question: "When given and option, do we always do what we think will lead us to our most desired outcome." Then, I'd tentatively say yes.

 

[quatona]

Hmm. I don't know if that's really a problem. Remember, I'm postulating that we do what we most want to do *now*.

Well, your latest rephrasing (which I responded to) was: "We always do what we think will bring us the most desired outcome". I don´t see any mentioning of "now" in it.
And if you´s add a "now" to it we´d be at square 1: We do not always do what we think will bring us the most desired outcome now - that was the reason why you rephrased your postulate, in the first place. We may bring out the trash because we think it will bring us the most desired outcome later, and we may practice or exercise because of something that promises to be fulfilling in the far future.
Sometimes we cognitively evaluate our actions, sometimes we are just spontaneous without thinking twice.
Sometimes we do something as an end in itself, sometimes we perform a certain action as a (often even undesirable) means to a desired long-term end.
I´m not sure why you would like to gloss over all those distinctions in favour of an oversimplification.

If now I prefer to sit on the couch, but I know I eventually want to be in shape, I'll still follow what I prefer even while knowing that the more I sit on the couch the less I'm inclined to hit my ultimate goal.

Yes, and sometimes you don´t (i.e. when you hate to go exercising - and so would enjoy sitting on the couch - but do it nonetheless because of the greater goal).

 

[Received]

Here's a philosophical assertion that may not come as news to any of you, but I wonder if anyone disagrees with it? I say that everyone always does what they most want to do. For example, say I don't want to take out the trash, but at the same time I want my wife to like me. So, I take out the trash because the desire to have my wife like me is greater than my dislike of taking out the trash.

Or say that I want to take a vacation in Australia. I don't do it, though, because my desire to have that money in the bank is greater than my desire to vaca'.

Your thoughts?

"Desire" and "want" are often used in different ways. If I say I do what I always want, this can mean I always do what I immediately desire -- i.e., what my Id dictates -- and this would be a clearly terrible world if that were how things were. Often people clearly don't do what they always want or desire, if by want/desire we mean immediate inclinations. The job of maturity and self-control is to suppress many desires for the better good; such might also be essential to freedom.

We also talk about want/desire as what we prefer. E.g., Bill did something he preferred or liked, so he did what he wanted. Well, not so much; he may have done something that to some degree coincided with his immediate inclinations, but using the word in two different ways like this is inconsistent. "Want" or "desire" does not mean what we've simply done or preferred.

So in that sense, we rarely do what we want or desire, if by these we mean immediate inclinations. We can say we do things we want or desire if by this we mean preference. But let's keep the terms consistent.

No, I don't think we always do what we want or desire, and we're often very much happier in the longer run because we don't.