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So your logic is that since Paul is writing the believers in Ephesus and since he speaks of "sons of disobedience" therefore the believers in Ephesus were sons of disobedience! Good to exercise some basic reading comprehension skills where reading scripture. At least do that!
In contrast Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24 It's a done deal.no one receives salvation until they either die or Jesus’ second coming.
Why not say— as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say— "Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved.
I see grace, salvation, and the gift as all being one who is the person of Jesus Christ.
He that has the Son, has life, and He that does not have the Son does not have life (1 John 5:12).
For Jesus was full of grace and truth (John 1:14). Jesus is the gift. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son (John 3:16).
Anyways, believers are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace (i.e. Jesus Christ). It is why a person who comes to Jesus for the first time can have an assurance of salvation (Without doing any kind of work). Initial and ultimate salvation is a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8-9). We are not ultimately saved by works of righteousness we have done alone without God's mercy (Titus 3:5). For even if a believer were to stumble into sin, do they get clean by doing another work? No. They get clean by confessing their sins to Jesus (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) and they ask Jesus to help them to overcome their sin (or to forsake it) (Matthew 26:41) (Romans 13:14) (John 15:5). But make no mistake, Scripture is also abundantly clear in that it teaches we are saved by "works of faith" after we are saved by God's grace, too.
“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).
"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).
"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).
"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).
The faith which is proposed to be saving in Sola Fide is faith which is without works. That is fake faith. Faith without works is useless and dead and has no saving power. Obedience to God IS faith. It is works of the LAW which Paul was railing against. Considering that there are many good deeds which are doable that aren't mentioned by name in the law, there is therefore a wide array of works which might be doable.Oh, so FAKE FAITH is your proclamation. That is quite the ACCUSATION of quite a large volume of people.
What is the word for "Accusation" in scripture?
Hey Sculleywr..... You show me your "Faith", and I'll show you the Work's my Faith has produced.
What's the difference in the rhetoric?
One group takes the credit for themselves. The other Group gives all Glory to God.
Romans 4:1-6
No because he says
for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
EPHESIANS 5:6 NASB
Paul is explaining why these sinful ways of life must not be named among them.
righteousness is δικαιοσυνη
of which the root word, according to the lexicon is δικαιος
justfy is δικαιοω
of which the root word, according to the lexicon is δικαιος
In Greek "justify" is simply the verb form of "righteous", just like in Greek "believe" is the verb form of "faith"
Furthermore if you actually read the two passages Rom 3 and Rom 10 and see how the words are used in context you wouldn't have such a misconception.
First of all "Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified." John 7:39 The New Covenant was not in effect until Acts chapter 2. So while David and Abraham were justified by faith apart from works (which Paul explicitly states in Romans 4), they were not "Christians". They were not born of God. So their behavior cannot be compare to those of us who have been born of God (Wesley makes that error), as described in 1John 3:9 "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."So. Was King David saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder?
Is a believer saved today if they stumble into adultery for a week, or if they stumble into lying for a few days? If they are saved by doing sins on occasion, then how is justifying a little bit of evil different than justifying lots of evil or sin?
The faith which is proposed to be saving in Sola Fide is faith which is without works. That is fake faith. Faith without works is useless and dead and has no saving power. Obedience to God IS faith. It is works of the LAW which Paul was railing against. Considering that there are many good deeds which are doable that aren't mentioned by name in the law, there is therefore a wide array of works which might be doable.
The fact is that I have no problem with Romans ANYTHING. You, however, have a problem with Romans 2, James 2 (which you refuse to take the way it was written no matter how many times you lie to yourself about that fact), Luke 10, Matthew 25, etc.
I take no credit for my works because they didn't come from me. You haven't even gotten to the meat of the discussion. You haven't asked which works save because you assume falsely that it is works of the Mosaic Law. It isn't.
So the -soni at the end of the first doesn't mean anything? They share the same root, but one is a verb that says "to make something righteous", while the other is simply "righteousness". righteousness is a state of being. Justifying is a verb. They serve different functions and have different meanings. Like dead and kill.
We still disagree on works for salvation. I still believe your interpretation of James directly contradicts Paul in Romans 4.
You said:I do however see your point about Jesus being the gift and John 15 certainly says we can be cut off from the vine which is Christ. But because the scriptures say grace is a gift and God’s gifts are irrevocable I can’t believe that grace is revocable. If that were so there could be no salvation for those who backslide and later repent.
We still disagree on works for salvation. I still believe your interpretation of James directly contradicts Paul in Romans 4. I do however see your point about Jesus being the gift and John 15 certainly says we can be cut off from the vine which is Christ. But because the scriptures say grace is a gift and God’s gifts are irrevocable I can’t believe that grace is revocable. If that were so there could be no salvation for those who backslide and later repent.
Just came upon this.You're Protestant. Just because you say you aren't doesn't mean you aren't. The invisible Church? A Protestant doctrine that came out of the Radical Reformation practice of Pietism. Sola Fide? A Protestant Dogma.
You hold to the central tenets of the Protestant Reformation. Ergo, you are Protestant.
Rom 3:21a But now a righteousness from God, apart from law,So the -soni at the end of the first doesn't mean anything? They share the same root, but one is a verb that says "to make something righteous", while the other is simply "righteousness". righteousness is a state of being. Justifying is a verb. They serve different functions and have different meanings. Like dead and kill.
We still disagree on works for salvation. I still believe your interpretation of James directly contradicts Paul in Romans 4. I do however see your point about Jesus being the gift and John 15 certainly says we can be cut off from the vine which is Christ. But because the scriptures say grace is a gift and God’s gifts are irrevocable I can’t believe that grace is revocable. If that were so there could be no salvation for those who backslide and later repent.
Just came upon this.
Just want to say that I know for sure that the CC also believe in the "invisible church"...if by that we mean the Body of Christ.
There are many denominations, but there is only one body of Christ..those that believe in Him and are disciples make up the BOC.
I'll go further and say that in Catholicism there are 3 "churches"....
The church militant --- here on this earth.
The church penitent --- those in purgatory
The church triumphant --- those in heaven
This is also called The Communion of Saints.
source: Lumen Gentium
The three states of the Church. "When the Lord comes in glory, and all his angels with him, death will be no more and all things will be subject to him. But at the present time some of his disciples are pilgrims on earth. Others have died and are being purified, while still others are in glory, contemplating 'in full light, God himself triune and one, exactly as he is'.
Rom 3:21a But now a righteousness from God, apart from law,
The righteous standing we who have been born of God have is apart from issues of law. It's apart from issues of how well one complies with commands. It's by trusting in Jesus, not trusting in oneself, one's own works, one's own compliance to "law", be the law of Moses or the law of Christ.
And that faith sets us apart from you salvation-by-works Christians on the essential issue as to what one must do to be saved. "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved" Acts 16:30,31
Wait. Before celebrating, let's make sure what you understand sheoul to be....Sister... What you call "Purgatory", I call Sheol... and We Agree on this to my Joy! I believe Romans 11 is the key to this difficult teaching that you have set forth! Ha! Who'd have thunk it?
Amen!
I'm issuing a FULL AGREE with you on this, without question!
Why would there be a Judgment at the end of it all, for those dead "not in Christ'.. if actual deliberation isn't to take place?
A person is saved by faith, apart from works, just as Scripture states, friend. The question is whether that salvation can thereafter be forfeited. You consider yourself saved, and you know perfectly well that if you go out raping and killing people tomorrow, and do not repent, you will forfeit your inheritance just as St. Paul teaches throughout the New Testament.We're talking about "in order to be saved". You advocate justification by compliance to law, a performance based salvation, which is salvation by works. Those of us who believe the gospel advocate "it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." Have been saved a person is born of God which affects his behavior such that there doesn't exist one born of God who continues to live in sin. Why? "because he has been born of God".
As I said, typically salvation by works Christians append all the commands in the New Testament with "in order to be saved". Much like the Pharisees of old, they don't believe the gospel, they believe justification by law.
Wait. Before celebrating, let's make sure what you understand sheoul to be....
I hope you remember that I don't agree with all catholic doctrine.
Purgatory, as you may know, is a place the CC believes almost everyone goes since they will not be perfectly sanctified before death and no sin shall enter into heaven (Revelation), so they believe one has to be purified before entering.
What is sheoul to you? (It has different meanings).
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