Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
You said it.Apparently all Christians before Luther and Calvin were boneheaded idiots, right?
It's the inescapable conclusion. If Protestants got it right, everyone before them were too stupid to understand the Apostles, even those who sat at the very feet of the Apostles were too stupid to understand the Gospel.You said it.
is there an abridged version of this post by any chance?Ways Salvation-by-Works Christians Misconstrue Scripture
Salvation by works Christians are those who claim that salvation under the New Covenant is dependent upon one's performance. This as opposed to the gospel of grace whereby "to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:5 and as such "it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:8,9 Those sole condition for salvation is faith in Christ and not works. Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24
To support their unbelief in the gospel of grace salvation-by-works Christians misconstrue verses to justify their unbelief. The following are the fundamental principles they follow to misconstrue verses.
1. Confusing Old Covenant justification with New Covenant justification. Namely confusing the performance based justification in which one gains eternal life by doing works. (i.e. "Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: The man who does these things will live by them." Rom 10:5) with trust based justification. (i.e. "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. .. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."" Rom 10:9,11)
In many cases they'll simply view "justification by law" as restricted to a composite of all the laws of Moses, and they'll come up with a new law, cherry picking certain laws from Moses or adding commands they find in the New Testament to create their own "law" and making salvation contingent upon complying with that law. Some will simply subtract from the law of Moses all regulations they classify as "ceremonial" and make salvation contingent upon complying with those subset of laws. In this they obviously miss the basic concept of what constitutes "justification by law" and the obvious contrast with justification by faith apart from law.
Examples:
Alleging that Rom 2:7 is talking about the gospel of grace whereas it's referring to justification by law. "To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." The way Paul is constructing his argument in Romans is that from Rom 1:18-3:20 he's talking about justification by law, which includes Rom 2:7. Then he transitions in Romans 3:21 "But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."
Likewise Jesus speaks of justification by law in verses like Luke 10:25-28 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" He said to him, "What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?" So he answered and said," ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’" And He said to him, "You have answered rightly; do this and you will live." Compare that last phrase with what Paul says in Romans 10:5 Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." The same thing. Jesus is talking about justification by law in that passage just had Paul did in the early chapters of Romans. To those who are not prepared to hear the gospel of grace Paul and Jesus challenge them with justification by the law till they realize that they are not good enough to be saved. In fact in one instance it is written Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. Luke 18:18,19 The problem with this person, as it is with salvation-by-works Christians, is he thought he could be good enough to be saved. He didn't understand that his concept of "good" was not good enough. And so Jesus goes on to challenge him with the Law.
2. Appending all commands in the New Testament to Christians with "in order to be saved". Salvation-by-works Christians can't imagine obeying commands for any other reason than salvation being dependent upon it. They think you can't get Christians to do good unless they are threatened with eternal condemnation because that's the way salvation-by-works Christians operate, which is also the case for all trying to be justified by law. "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."" Gal 3:10 This as opposed to the fact that "there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus," Rom 8:1 and the reason why is "because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death." Rom 8:2
Furthermore those operating under fear of condemnation are not only disqualified due to their unbelief, but they are incapable of doing many things required by the law, that they typically will include in their own version of the law, like "love". Love exercised out of the fear of condemnation is not love because "There is no fear in love" 1John 4:18 And love "is not self-seeking" 1Cor 13:5
3. Confusing Cause and Effect. When a person comes to faith in Christ he is given the Holy Spirit to live in him and is born of God. Such things have an inevitable effect on one's behavior. Salvation by works Christians confuse verses which describe such an effect as if they were speaking of the cause of one's salvation rather then describing the behavior of one who has been saved. One contributing factor to them misconstruing verses in such a fashion is the fact that given their unbelief, they are not qualified to be born of God nor receive the Spirit and so find that such verses don't agree with their personal experience, so they misconstrue them as talking about something else.
Examples:
John 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me." They listen and follow because they are his sheep. This as opposed to the idea that listening and following him cause them to become his sheep. Likewise John says, "We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. " 1John 4:6 They hear what the apostles are teaching because they are of God, which includes understanding the apostles teachings as 1Cor 2:12,14 says "We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. .. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." (Which is why salvation by works Christians misconstrue scripture on the points)
1John 3:9,10 "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother."
Note that those born of God have a characteristic behavior not due to fear of condemnation, but rather due to the fact that they have been born of God. And that such a characteristic behavior is so inevitable and clearly distinct from that of children of the devil that the two can be distinguished based upon observations of behavior. This as opposed to typical claims of salvation by works Christians that one has to behave a certain way in order to be born of God and thus saved by one's behavior.
Typically they will also point out verses speaking of the converse, namely that those who behaved wickedly end up in hell, like Rev 21:8 "the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars— their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur." And then they'll make the hypothesis that this proves salvation by works, which of course it doesn't. People don't behave in such a manner because they have been saved and subsequently born of God. So that verse and like verses are simply describing the behavior of those who had not been born of God.
Ways Salvation-by-Works Christians Misconstrue Scripture
Salvation by works Christians are those who claim that salvation under the New Covenant is dependent upon one's performance. This as opposed to the gospel of grace whereby "to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:5 and as such "it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:8,9 Those sole condition for salvation is faith in Christ and not works. Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24
To support their unbelief in the gospel of grace salvation-by-works Christians misconstrue verses to justify their unbelief. The following are the fundamental principles they follow to misconstrue verses.
1. Confusing Old Covenant justification with New Covenant justification. Namely confusing the performance based justification in which one gains eternal life by doing works. (i.e. "Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: The man who does these things will live by them." Rom 10:5) with trust based justification. (i.e. "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. .. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."" Rom 10:9,11)
In many cases they'll simply view "justification by law" as restricted to a composite of all the laws of Moses, and they'll come up with a new law, cherry picking certain laws from Moses or adding commands they find in the New Testament to create their own "law" and making salvation contingent upon complying with that law. Some will simply subtract from the law of Moses all regulations they classify as "ceremonial" and make salvation contingent upon complying with those subset of laws. In this they obviously miss the basic concept of what constitutes "justification by law" and the obvious contrast with justification by faith apart from law.
Examples:
Alleging that Rom 2:7 is talking about the gospel of grace whereas it's referring to justification by law. "To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." The way Paul is constructing his argument in Romans is that from Rom 1:18-3:20 he's talking about justification by law, which includes Rom 2:7. Then he transitions in Romans 3:21 "But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."
Likewise Jesus speaks of justification by law in verses like Luke 10:25-28 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" He said to him, "What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?" So he answered and said," ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’" And He said to him, "You have answered rightly; do this and you will live." Compare that last phrase with what Paul says in Romans 10:5 Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." The same thing. Jesus is talking about justification by law in that passage just had Paul did in the early chapters of Romans. To those who are not prepared to hear the gospel of grace Paul and Jesus challenge them with justification by the law till they realize that they are not good enough to be saved. In fact in one instance it is written Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. Luke 18:18,19 The problem with this person, as it is with salvation-by-works Christians, is he thought he could be good enough to be saved. He didn't understand that his concept of "good" was not good enough. And so Jesus goes on to challenge him with the Law.
2. Appending all commands in the New Testament to Christians with "in order to be saved". Salvation-by-works Christians can't imagine obeying commands for any other reason than salvation being dependent upon it. They think you can't get Christians to do good unless they are threatened with eternal condemnation because that's the way salvation-by-works Christians operate, which is also the case for all trying to be justified by law. "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."" Gal 3:10 This as opposed to the fact that "there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus," Rom 8:1 and the reason why is "because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death." Rom 8:2
Furthermore those operating under fear of condemnation are not only disqualified due to their unbelief, but they are incapable of doing many things required by the law, that they typically will include in their own version of the law, like "love". Love exercised out of the fear of condemnation is not love because "There is no fear in love" 1John 4:18 And love "is not self-seeking" 1Cor 13:5
3. Confusing Cause and Effect. When a person comes to faith in Christ he is given the Holy Spirit to live in him and is born of God. Such things have an inevitable effect on one's behavior. Salvation by works Christians confuse verses which describe such an effect as if they were speaking of the cause of one's salvation rather then describing the behavior of one who has been saved. One contributing factor to them misconstruing verses in such a fashion is the fact that given their unbelief, they are not qualified to be born of God nor receive the Spirit and so find that such verses don't agree with their personal experience, so they misconstrue them as talking about something else.
Examples:
John 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me." They listen and follow because they are his sheep. This as opposed to the idea that listening and following him cause them to become his sheep. Likewise John says, "We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. " 1John 4:6 They hear what the apostles are teaching because they are of God, which includes understanding the apostles teachings as 1Cor 2:12,14 says "We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. .. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." (Which is why salvation by works Christians misconstrue scripture on the points)
1John 3:9,10 "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother."
Note that those born of God have a characteristic behavior not due to fear of condemnation, but rather due to the fact that they have been born of God. And that such a characteristic behavior is so inevitable and clearly distinct from that of children of the devil that the two can be distinguished based upon observations of behavior. This as opposed to typical claims of salvation by works Christians that one has to behave a certain way in order to be born of God and thus saved by one's behavior.
Typically they will also point out verses speaking of the converse, namely that those who behaved wickedly end up in hell, like Rev 21:8 "the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars— their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur." And then they'll make the hypothesis that this proves salvation by works, which of course it doesn't. People don't behave in such a manner because they have been saved and subsequently born of God. So that verse and like verses are simply describing the behavior of those who had not been born of God.
Ways Salvation-by-Works Christians Misconstrue Scripture
Salvation by works Christians are those who claim that salvation under the New Covenant is dependent upon one's performance. This as opposed to the gospel of grace whereby "to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:5 and as such "it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:8,9 Those sole condition for salvation is faith in Christ and not works. Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24
Agreed.It's the inescapable conclusion. If Protestants got it right, everyone before them were too stupid to understand the Apostles, even those who sat at the very feet of the Apostles were too stupid to understand the Gospel.
Yes there is.is there an abridged version of this post by any chance?
You're welcome.Thanks
It's the inescapable conclusion. If Protestants got it right, everyone before them were too stupid to understand the Apostles, even those who sat at the very feet of the Apostles were too stupid to understand the Gospel.
is there an abridged version of this post by any chance?
Agreed.
What did those nutty Early Church Fathers think they knew anyway?
Just because they knew Peter, or John and studied at their feet, that makes them experts?
1,500 years wasted...waiting for the Reformation.
Which, seriously, was needed too; even though it caused God knows how many deaths in Europe.
These days people watch YouTube and trust their favorite pastor instead of those that learned directly from the Apostles or those that knew them.
We're in a sad situation.
Yes there is.
Here is the abridged version:
Jesus did it all on the cross.
HIS part and OUR part.
We need do nothing at all.
We just have to sit around and wait for heaven.
Ways Salvation-by-Works Christians Misconstrue Scripture
Salvation by works Christians are those who claim that salvation under the New Covenant is dependent upon one's performance. This as opposed to the gospel of grace whereby "to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:5 and as such "it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:8,9 Those sole condition for salvation is faith in Christ and not works. Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24
To support their unbelief in the gospel of grace salvation-by-works Christians misconstrue verses to justify their unbelief. The following are the fundamental principles they follow to misconstrue verses.
1. Confusing Old Covenant justification with New Covenant justification. Namely confusing the performance based justification in which one gains eternal life by doing works. (i.e. "Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: The man who does these things will live by them." Rom 10:5) with trust based justification. (i.e. "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. .. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."" Rom 10:9,11)
In many cases they'll simply view "justification by law" as restricted to a composite of all the laws of Moses, and they'll come up with a new law, cherry picking certain laws from Moses or adding commands they find in the New Testament to create their own "law" and making salvation contingent upon complying with that law. Some will simply subtract from the law of Moses all regulations they classify as "ceremonial" and make salvation contingent upon complying with those subset of laws. In this they obviously miss the basic concept of what constitutes "justification by law" and the obvious contrast with justification by faith apart from law.
Examples:
Alleging that Rom 2:7 is talking about the gospel of grace whereas it's referring to justification by law. "To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." The way Paul is constructing his argument in Romans is that from Rom 1:18-3:20 he's talking about justification by law, which includes Rom 2:7. Then he transitions in Romans 3:21 "But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."
Likewise Jesus speaks of justification by law in verses like Luke 10:25-28 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" He said to him, "What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?" So he answered and said," ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’" And He said to him, "You have answered rightly; do this and you will live." Compare that last phrase with what Paul says in Romans 10:5 Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." The same thing. Jesus is talking about justification by law in that passage just had Paul did in the early chapters of Romans. To those who are not prepared to hear the gospel of grace Paul and Jesus challenge them with justification by the law till they realize that they are not good enough to be saved. In fact in one instance it is written Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. Luke 18:18,19 The problem with this person, as it is with salvation-by-works Christians, is he thought he could be good enough to be saved. He didn't understand that his concept of "good" was not good enough. And so Jesus goes on to challenge him with the Law.
2. Appending all commands in the New Testament to Christians with "in order to be saved". Salvation-by-works Christians can't imagine obeying commands for any other reason than salvation being dependent upon it. They think you can't get Christians to do good unless they are threatened with eternal condemnation because that's the way salvation-by-works Christians operate, which is also the case for all trying to be justified by law. "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."" Gal 3:10 This as opposed to the fact that "there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus," Rom 8:1 and the reason why is "because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death." Rom 8:2
Furthermore those operating under fear of condemnation are not only disqualified due to their unbelief, but they are incapable of doing many things required by the law, that they typically will include in their own version of the law, like "love". Love exercised out of the fear of condemnation is not love because "There is no fear in love" 1John 4:18 And love "is not self-seeking" 1Cor 13:5
3. Confusing Cause and Effect. When a person comes to faith in Christ he is given the Holy Spirit to live in him and is born of God. Such things have an inevitable effect on one's behavior. Salvation by works Christians confuse verses which describe such an effect as if they were speaking of the cause of one's salvation rather then describing the behavior of one who has been saved. One contributing factor to them misconstruing verses in such a fashion is the fact that given their unbelief, they are not qualified to be born of God nor receive the Spirit and so find that such verses don't agree with their personal experience, so they misconstrue them as talking about something else.
Examples:
John 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me." They listen and follow because they are his sheep. This as opposed to the idea that listening and following him cause them to become his sheep. Likewise John says, "We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. " 1John 4:6 They hear what the apostles are teaching because they are of God, which includes understanding the apostles teachings as 1Cor 2:12,14 says "We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. .. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." (Which is why salvation by works Christians misconstrue scripture on the points)
1John 3:9,10 "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother."
Note that those born of God have a characteristic behavior not due to fear of condemnation, but rather due to the fact that they have been born of God. And that such a characteristic behavior is so inevitable and clearly distinct from that of children of the devil that the two can be distinguished based upon observations of behavior. This as opposed to typical claims of salvation by works Christians that one has to behave a certain way in order to be born of God and thus saved by one's behavior.
Typically they will also point out verses speaking of the converse, namely that those who behaved wickedly end up in hell, like Rev 21:8 "the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars— their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur." And then they'll make the hypothesis that this proves salvation by works, which of course it doesn't. People don't behave in such a manner because they have been saved and subsequently born of God. So that verse and like verses are simply describing the behavior of those who had not been born of God.
Why do you continue to propagate a non-truth?
I haven't read your entire O.P. because it's the same as all your other O.P.'s...
But this caught my eye, and you repeat this constantly and it is not true.
How could YOU know how every other Christian feels?
You cannot.
Furthermore those operating under fear of condemnation are not only disqualified due to their unbelief, but they are incapable of doing many things required by the law, that they typically will include in their own version of the law, like "love". Love exercised out of the fear of condemnation is not love because "There is no fear in love" 1John 4:18 And love "is not self-seeking" 1Cor 13:5
Since you believe that one's DOCTRINE could cause him to be disqualified, I certainly hope YOU have your doctrine 100% correct.
Ways Salvation-by-Works Christians Misconstrue Scripture
Salvation by works Christians are those who claim that salvation under the New Covenant is dependent upon one's performance. This as opposed to the gospel of grace whereby "to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:5 and as such "it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:8,9 Those sole condition for salvation is faith in Christ and not works. Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24
To support their unbelief in the gospel of grace salvation-by-works Christians misconstrue verses to justify their unbelief. The following are the fundamental principles they follow to misconstrue verses.
1. Confusing Old Covenant justification with New Covenant justification. Namely confusing the performance based justification in which one gains eternal life by doing works. (i.e. "Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: The man who does these things will live by them." Rom 10:5) with trust based justification. (i.e. "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. .. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."" Rom 10:9,11)
In many cases they'll simply view "justification by law" as restricted to a composite of all the laws of Moses, and they'll come up with a new law, cherry picking certain laws from Moses or adding commands they find in the New Testament to create their own "law" and making salvation contingent upon complying with that law. Some will simply subtract from the law of Moses all regulations they classify as "ceremonial" and make salvation contingent upon complying with those subset of laws. In this they obviously miss the basic concept of what constitutes "justification by law" and the obvious contrast with justification by faith apart from law.
Examples:
Alleging that Rom 2:7 is talking about the gospel of grace whereas it's referring to justification by law. "To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." The way Paul is constructing his argument in Romans is that from Rom 1:18-3:20 he's talking about justification by law, which includes Rom 2:7. Then he transitions in Romans 3:21 "But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."
Likewise Jesus speaks of justification by law in verses like Luke 10:25-28 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" He said to him, "What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?" So he answered and said," ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’" And He said to him, "You have answered rightly; do this and you will live." Compare that last phrase with what Paul says in Romans 10:5 Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." The same thing. Jesus is talking about justification by law in that passage just had Paul did in the early chapters of Romans. To those who are not prepared to hear the gospel of grace Paul and Jesus challenge them with justification by the law till they realize that they are not good enough to be saved. In fact in one instance it is written Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. Luke 18:18,19 The problem with this person, as it is with salvation-by-works Christians, is he thought he could be good enough to be saved. He didn't understand that his concept of "good" was not good enough. And so Jesus goes on to challenge him with the Law.
2. Appending all commands in the New Testament to Christians with "in order to be saved". Salvation-by-works Christians can't imagine obeying commands for any other reason than salvation being dependent upon it. They think you can't get Christians to do good unless they are threatened with eternal condemnation because that's the way salvation-by-works Christians operate, which is also the case for all trying to be justified by law. "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."" Gal 3:10 This as opposed to the fact that "there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus," Rom 8:1 and the reason why is "because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death." Rom 8:2
Furthermore those operating under fear of condemnation are not only disqualified due to their unbelief, but they are incapable of doing many things required by the law, that they typically will include in their own version of the law, like "love". Love exercised out of the fear of condemnation is not love because "There is no fear in love" 1John 4:18 And love "is not self-seeking" 1Cor 13:5
3. Confusing Cause and Effect. When a person comes to faith in Christ he is given the Holy Spirit to live in him and is born of God. Such things have an inevitable effect on one's behavior. Salvation by works Christians confuse verses which describe such an effect as if they were speaking of the cause of one's salvation rather then describing the behavior of one who has been saved. One contributing factor to them misconstruing verses in such a fashion is the fact that given their unbelief, they are not qualified to be born of God nor receive the Spirit and so find that such verses don't agree with their personal experience, so they misconstrue them as talking about something else.
Examples:
John 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me." They listen and follow because they are his sheep. This as opposed to the idea that listening and following him cause them to become his sheep. Likewise John says, "We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. " 1John 4:6 They hear what the apostles are teaching because they are of God, which includes understanding the apostles teachings as 1Cor 2:12,14 says "We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. .. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." (Which is why salvation by works Christians misconstrue scripture on the points)
1John 3:9,10 "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother."
Note that those born of God have a characteristic behavior not due to fear of condemnation, but rather due to the fact that they have been born of God. And that such a characteristic behavior is so inevitable and clearly distinct from that of children of the devil that the two can be distinguished based upon observations of behavior. This as opposed to typical claims of salvation by works Christians that one has to behave a certain way in order to be born of God and thus saved by one's behavior.
Typically they will also point out verses speaking of the converse, namely that those who behaved wickedly end up in hell, like Rev 21:8 "the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars— their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur." And then they'll make the hypothesis that this proves salvation by works, which of course it doesn't. People don't behave in such a manner because they have been saved and subsequently born of God. So that verse and like verses are simply describing the behavior of those who had not been born of God.
I will be candid. Love is a work of the Holy Spirit. Frustrating Grace is accomplished by attempting to accomplish the Works Of God in the Flesh.
I will hold fast that my only work is Belief. True Belief, comes from the Father, recognizing my belief in the Son.
If a person becomes unloving that is a sibling... I extend grace... and trust the Holy Spirit to impart that Fruit.
As for patience... Being someone that prayed for it... I warn all that true patience is to suffer physical and emotional pain, for an extended amount of time, and maintain composure. It is truly LongSuffering.
I appreciate how you have worded this.
I will simply say this. If a sinful man like me can be equipped by God, Alone, to produce fruit and seed the Gospel... Anyone can do it!
If that is true friend how can anyone fail to abide in Christ?
Ways Salvation-by-Works Christians Misconstrue Scripture
Salvation by works Christians are those who claim that salvation under the New Covenant is dependent upon one's performance. This as opposed to the gospel of grace whereby "to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:5 and as such "it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:8,9 Those sole condition for salvation is faith in Christ and not works. Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24
To support their unbelief in the gospel of grace salvation-by-works Christians misconstrue verses to justify their unbelief. The following are the fundamental principles they follow to misconstrue verses.
1. Confusing Old Covenant justification with New Covenant justification. Namely confusing the performance based justification in which one gains eternal life by doing works. (i.e. "Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: The man who does these things will live by them." Rom 10:5) with trust based justification. (i.e. "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. .. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."" Rom 10:9,11)
In many cases they'll simply view "justification by law" as restricted to a composite of all the laws of Moses, and they'll come up with a new law, cherry picking certain laws from Moses or adding commands they find in the New Testament to create their own "law" and making salvation contingent upon complying with that law. Some will simply subtract from the law of Moses all regulations they classify as "ceremonial" and make salvation contingent upon complying with those subset of laws. In this they obviously miss the basic concept of what constitutes "justification by law" and the obvious contrast with justification by faith apart from law.
Examples:
Alleging that Rom 2:7 is talking about the gospel of grace whereas it's referring to justification by law. "To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." The way Paul is constructing his argument in Romans is that from Rom 1:18-3:20 he's talking about justification by law, which includes Rom 2:7. Then he transitions in Romans 3:21 "But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."
Likewise Jesus speaks of justification by law in verses like Luke 10:25-28 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" He said to him, "What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?" So he answered and said," ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’" And He said to him, "You have answered rightly; do this and you will live." Compare that last phrase with what Paul says in Romans 10:5 Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." The same thing. Jesus is talking about justification by law in that passage just had Paul did in the early chapters of Romans. To those who are not prepared to hear the gospel of grace Paul and Jesus challenge them with justification by the law till they realize that they are not good enough to be saved. In fact in one instance it is written Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. Luke 18:18,19 The problem with this person, as it is with salvation-by-works Christians, is he thought he could be good enough to be saved. He didn't understand that his concept of "good" was not good enough. And so Jesus goes on to challenge him with the Law.
2. Appending all commands in the New Testament to Christians with "in order to be saved". Salvation-by-works Christians can't imagine obeying commands for any other reason than salvation being dependent upon it. They think you can't get Christians to do good unless they are threatened with eternal condemnation because that's the way salvation-by-works Christians operate, which is also the case for all trying to be justified by law. "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."" Gal 3:10 This as opposed to the fact that "there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus," Rom 8:1 and the reason why is "because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death." Rom 8:2
Furthermore those operating under fear of condemnation are not only disqualified due to their unbelief, but they are incapable of doing many things required by the law, that they typically will include in their own version of the law, like "love". Love exercised out of the fear of condemnation is not love because "There is no fear in love" 1John 4:18 And love "is not self-seeking" 1Cor 13:5
3. Confusing Cause and Effect. When a person comes to faith in Christ he is given the Holy Spirit to live in him and is born of God. Such things have an inevitable effect on one's behavior. Salvation by works Christians confuse verses which describe such an effect as if they were speaking of the cause of one's salvation rather then describing the behavior of one who has been saved. One contributing factor to them misconstruing verses in such a fashion is the fact that given their unbelief, they are not qualified to be born of God nor receive the Spirit and so find that such verses don't agree with their personal experience, so they misconstrue them as talking about something else.
Examples:
John 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me." They listen and follow because they are his sheep. This as opposed to the idea that listening and following him cause them to become his sheep. Likewise John says, "We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. " 1John 4:6 They hear what the apostles are teaching because they are of God, which includes understanding the apostles teachings as 1Cor 2:12,14 says "We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. .. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." (Which is why salvation by works Christians misconstrue scripture on the points)
1John 3:9,10 "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother."
Note that those born of God have a characteristic behavior not due to fear of condemnation, but rather due to the fact that they have been born of God. And that such a characteristic behavior is so inevitable and clearly distinct from that of children of the devil that the two can be distinguished based upon observations of behavior. This as opposed to typical claims of salvation by works Christians that one has to behave a certain way in order to be born of God and thus saved by one's behavior.
Typically they will also point out verses speaking of the converse, namely that those who behaved wickedly end up in hell, like Rev 21:8 "the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars— their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur." And then they'll make the hypothesis that this proves salvation by works, which of course it doesn't. People don't behave in such a manner because they have been saved and subsequently born of God. So that verse and like verses are simply describing the behavior of those who had not been born of God.
Those who have believed, but have not been drawn into true belief yet are subject to the terrible fates that are brought on within the Parable of the Seed Sower.... though one fate is positive.
A True Believer will not fall away. Allow me to ask you this. Who does God see when we approach Him as true believers? His son, or us?
Those of us who believe the gospel of grace recognize that if works are required on our part to be saved, then salvation is not of grace, as Paul also says, "Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:4,5 Thus one cannot both believe in Jesus and work for salvation to be saved.After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:
(Here are a List of Verses):
As for your claim that us "Works Type Salvation Christians" confuse "Cause and Effect:"
Well, you think that "Salvation" is the "Cause," and "Not Continuing in Sin" (1 John 3) is the "Effect." But as I pointed out before, you said that the problem you have with holiness types is that they claim to no longer sin. Granted, I believe this "sin" to be "grievous sin" that the Bible explicitly condemns (and not minor transgressions, faults of character, or the sin that does not lead unto death). For Christians who are faithful will meet a basic standard of holy living by overcoming grievous sin. Yet, you quote 1 John 3 about "no one who is born of God will continue in sin." How does that work in your view? How can you say that you do not continue in sin if you take issue with Christians who claim to do so? Also, the "Effect" is never separate from the "Cause."
You want to cut out salvation from works (of which the Bible teaches after we are saved by God's grace). But if Salvation leads to works or holy living, then Salvation is tied to works and holy living. An example: When the rain came (the Cause), it flooded the house (the Effect). The rain water is the flood. You want to say that the rain is not related to the flood because you are saying that works (or holy living) is not related to Salvation (Which is the Cause).
Side Note:
Granted, there are examples where the Effect is not so closely related to the Cause. For example: A lightning bolt struck a tree and it split the tree in half. The Effect is a broken up tree. A lightning bolt is not a tree. But the tree would not have gotten that way without the lightning bolt. A man with an axe can also split a tree. The man swinging the axe can be the Cause, and the Effect can be chopped wood or a split tree. A man wielding an axe is not a tree cut in half, but the tree would not have gotten that way without the man cutting it with an axe. So even in cases like these, they have a close relationship to each other. So while it is possible that there are scenarios where the Cause is not exactly like the Effect, there are scenarios like Rain Water From a Storm causing a Flood (Pooled up Rain Water) to be almost the same thing as one another. Anyways, the point here is that the Cause and Effect illustration is not a good one for either side of this debate. Scripture and other more fitting real world examples has to be the determination of truth here.
Then untrue believers can be in Christ and attached to the vine? We’re Jesus’ 11 faithful apostles true believers? If so why did Jesus tell them to remain in Him if they are incapable of failing to remain?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?