Way of the Master and Living Waters Ministry

[MikeMcK]

Just out of curiosity, is the church that you attend growing, shrinking, or staying about the same?

Growing greatly.

We started last April with 22 members and just accepted our 100th member about a month ago.

In addition, the chapel service I helped found about five years ago has grown steadily over the last five years.

But that having been said, the growth we've experienced is a result of our faithfulness to the Gospel, not a measure of our success.

I'd rather have a church who's membership remained constant and changed very little, rather than a church that achieves great growth at the expense of faithfulness to the Gospel.

What about the number of Christians in your community- is it growing or shrinking?

Hard to say. We live in such a rural area that it's hard to tell.

 

[Servant222]

Growing greatly.

We started last April with 22 members and just accepted our 100th member about a month ago.

That is really great to hear! I am convinced that there is a great thirst for spiritual knowledge out there, and all it takes is the right approach. Of course, the Spirit must also draw people to a church.

But that having been said, the growth we've experienced is a result of our faithfulness to the Gospel, not a measure of our success.

Can you elaborate? I presume your service is rooted in the Bible, but what specific things do you think you do that encourages committment and growth?

I'd rather have a church who's membership remained constant and changed very little, rather than a church that achieves great growth at the expense of faithfulness to the Gospel.

I think any Christian that attended would agree that my church is 100% Bible-based and totally faithful to the Gospel. The support programs are also great- a wonderful music ministry, Bible study, children's Sunday school, etc. However, our church membership is pretty well constant, and only a very small percentage of the people living in our town goes to any Church.

So I find myself asking: what more should we be doing to encourage people to become committed Christians?

But when that question is asked, then it is equally benefical to ask: what is turning people away from the Church, and often into the arms of alternative religions? I don't think people's spiritually changes, but how they express it does.

 

[Tkjjc89]

So I find myself asking: what more should we be doing to encourage people to become committed Christians?

But when that question is asked, then it is equally benefical to ask: what is turning people away from the Church, and often into the arms of alternative religions? I don't think people's spiritually changes, but how they express it does.

My question would be, "commited" in what way? By attending? By bringing more into the fold? By giving money to a church?

Believe it or not, from a fellow Christian who does NOT attend a local church, I can tell you my reasons, and then it might help yours grow.

1) I don't want to hear about how much a ministry "needs" money. Who doesn't! If I had a say in a church, all the moneys collected would go to pay the church bills(ONLY), and then we as a church would head down and help those less fortunate people, as a group. Then you would see the fruit of action, and I mean ALL of the money, not just part of it.
2) I don't want to hear a 3 verse sermon for an hour. They are too time consuming, and most don't even fall within the context of the whole message.
3) I don't want to sing for 1/2 hour. I can do that in the shower.
4) The alter call would be at the beginning, not the end. I would find out who the new people are, welcome them, and give a brief message on what we are about. Then go into the meat of the gospel. ALL Biblical doctrine would be studied in Elders Bible Study, and then we as a group would formulate sermons.
5) Pastors who avoid "hot topics" and just talk to tickle your ears, like how much God wants to give you money, cars, houses, blah blah blah. Blessings are one thing, going to church to get blessed, is another. It like your "buying" Christianity.
Hmm, wish listing here,,,,,,I know, but still hoping for a great one
Now as far as being "turned off" by Churches?

People who attend that are hypocritical. Who think they are so much better than the other person, and make that feeling known. I would require everyone to wear clothes they can tear up, and then when service was over, we would head somewhere in town that needed attention, and build it up, in the name of Jesus.

Pastors who beg for money and guilt those in the church into giving it.

Teachings that don't follow sound scripture. Go to a church, and they say Paul's teaching matters, Jesus's don't. Just His death did..??

People that think they can judge you, or guilt you into alter calls.
Ever been to a small church, and the "new" person there is the one the pastor is speaking to the WHOLE TIME? Annoying, as it has been me on several occasions, while I was shopping around.

Pastors who cannot answer BASIC doctrinal questions, or avoid the answer altogether.

 

[Servant222]

Tkjjc89: thanks for taking the time to so honestly share your thoughts; we need to do much more of that, which is why I am a strong believer in these Christian forums.

I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to pass your comments on to our two pastors and see if there is anything they might wish to consider.

I too became disillusioned and didn't attend church for a while when I was young. My faith continued strong as ever, but I just didn't feel that the church was giving me what I needed. Then, though, I went to a really inspirational service (it helped that I had my future wife with me!), and I realized that God reigned supreme and that I needed to put aside the things of man that creep into every man-made organization, including religious services, and not let them bother me. After that, and for decades since, I have enjoyed every church service I have ever attended, everywhere; even those given in a foreign language.

 

[Servant222]

In one of the Way of the Master videos, Ray Comfort (great name!) claims that in the week after the horrible 911 attacks on the World Trade Center, many people turned to God, prayed, and basically reaffirmed their Christian beliefs.

He then goes on to say that all those people turned back to their old ways "Statistics show there was no increase in the number of Christians".

His point was that Christian ministries today are ineffective because they don't give people the right message: that you have to repent from your sins and follow Jesus if you wish to be saved, and if you don't do that, you'll go to hell.

What do others think? First, are there really statistics that bear out his claim or was that an exaggeration? Second, are the "mega-churches" (as Ray Comfort calls them) missing the boat by just providing "a soothing message that Jesus loves you and has a plan for you", but without also mentioning the reality of sin and eternal damnation?

 

[GPguy]

Servant222,


I am very interested on your thoughts about the, Way of The Master program, very interested!!

 

[Servant222]

Please don't misinterpret what I am saying. I am not saying that there is anything wrong with this ministry or that its approach is not valid.

But here is what does concern me:

1. Unlike mainstream churches with ordained ministers, "Pastor" Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron have no theological training and degree.

2. Neither Way of the Master or Living Waters Ministry belong to the Evangelical Council For Financial Accountability (ECFA), a large, independent Christian organization that sets financial and ethical guidelines for its members, and checks for compliance. Many (most?) mainstay Christian organizations that solicit funds belong to the ECFA.

3. Ray and Kirk in their ministry are very critical of other Christian ministries, claiming that they "water down the message of salvation" or give the wrong soothing message ("Jesus loves you") and do not produce committed Christians. However, they do not back up these statements with any hard facts or statistics, or provide information that THEIR ministry (a) is more Bible-based than others that they criticise, (b) reaches more people and (c) produces more Bible-based, committed Christians.

There is no doubt that Christians always need to do more to be evangelists and bring the message of salvation to the world. We should be very concerned about every person that we didn't reach, and that dies without having a chance to repent and accept Jesus as their personal savior.

But how we do this effectively, and how we identify credible ministries that have no ulterior motives, and follow Biblical principles in their approach, is what is at issue here.

I close with Mark 16:

15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

 

[Servant222]

Way of the Master and Living Waters ministeries have a considerable amount of literature and videos for sale on their WEB site, and solicit donations, and probably make a lot of money for their organizers.

Is this wrong? Not necessarily. If the message of salvation is being successfully presented, then what is wrong with making money? The president of at least one large well-known Christian organization that is a member of ECFA receives a salary of hundreds of thousands of dollars. Presumably, though, his leadership skills, ability to organize world-wide relief efforts, and fund raising acumen are worth his salary. The organization as a whole uses almost 90% of the funding it receives for its aid programs, and therefore, the salary issue may be irrelevant.

So what do we make of this? Do these kinds of slick ministeries help or hurt other Christian organizations and the Christian faith? If so, how do we separate the wheat from the chaff, or should we even bother to try if the organization is turning at least some people to Jesus? I am sure that even the most controversial televangelists lead some of their followers to Christ- so as Christians, do we quietly accept this, or do we have an obligation to ensure that the Gospel message is presented with less marketing and money attached?

 

[MikeMcK]

1. Unlike mainstream churches with ordained ministers, "Pastor" Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron have no theological training and degree.

First, Ray Comfort isn't a pastor and has never claimed to be.

It's true that several of the people on the show are on the ministry staff and their various churches, but none of them are pastors or claim to be.

Second, so what?

Some of the greatest preachers and Godliest men I know have no degree.

For the record, Todd Friel, who is the main voice of the show, does have theological training and a degree from a Bible school in Minnesota (he's mentioned it on the air before, but the name escapes me).

2. Neither Way of the Master or Living Waters Ministry belong to the Evangelical Council For Financial Accountability (ECFA)

Again, so what? There are thousands of ministries worldwide who don't belong to ECFA. Why does a ministry have to belong to an organization that you decide they should, in order to be legit?

Besides, CRI was a member of ECFA for many years and look what happened there.

3. Ray and Kirk in their ministry are very critical of other Christian ministries

Good for them. If those ministries are wrong, then they should be criticized.

claiming that they "water down the message of salvation" or give the wrong soothing message ("Jesus loves you") and do not produce committed Christians. However, they do not back up these statements with any hard facts or statistics

Actually, if you've ever listened to the show, they do examine these ministries using their own teachings.

Besides, these other organizations must be wrong. After all, they don't belong to ECFA.

or provide information that THEIR ministry (a) is more Bible-based than others that they criticise, (b) reaches more people and (c) produces more Bible-based, committed Christians.

Again, I have to assume that you don't listen to the show.

Way of the Master and Living Waters ministeries have a considerable amount of literature and videos for sale on their WEB site, and solicit donations, and probably make a lot of money for their organizers.

And they also give a lot away for free. Given that they don't solicit money from their listeners like many other ministries, I think it's a pretty good idea to have items for sale to offset the cost of the ministry.

For the record, WoTM is not a big money maker. If you're familiar with the ministry, then you know that they just had to move some of their operations to Texas because they could not afford to stay in California.

 

[Servant222]

Thanks for the info; unfortunately, I don't believe their radio program is available where I live. FWIW, my Church is using the Way of the Master Program and it is generating a lot of positive discussion about how to better share our faith.

We have yet to try it out on the street, but this is coming.

 

[MikeMcK]

Thanks for the info; unfortunately, I don't believe their radio program is available where I live.

You can listen to it at WOTMRadio.com

The archives contain literally every show they've ever done, going all the way back to day one.

You can also download it at itunes or listen to it on Sirius.

 

[Servant222]

First, Ray Comfort isn't a pastor and has never claimed to be.

Is "Comfort" his real name?

Second, so what?

There have been many false ministries out there and so it is important for us to expect that every Christian organization shows that it is reputable.

Again, so what? There are thousands of ministries worldwide who don't belong to ECFA. Why does a ministry have to belong to an organization that you decide they should, in order to be legit?

In today's world, we need to have as many tools as possible to help us determine what ministries are legitimate, and worthy of support. If someone feels that God is leading them to support some other ministry, fine; but it is nice to have a choice. Personally, since funds are limited and the needs great, I do want to make sure that my contributions are going to support ministries that have some independent measure of credibility.

Besides, CRI was a member of ECFA for many years and look what happened there.

What is CRI and what happened?

Good for them. If those ministries are wrong, then they should be criticized.

I think Christian organizations should always be very careful about criticising other Christian ministries, and should only do so if they can back their criticism up with specific examples and facts and figures.

Again, in this case, The Way of the Master is being very critical of other ministeries without backing up those statements, or providing any information that their approach is any more effective. I don't see how this approach helps our faith.

 

[MikeMcK]

Again, in this case, The Way of the Master is being very critical of other ministeries without backing up those statements

Then, again, I have to assume that you don't listen to the show, because on those occasions where they do criticize someone, they spend a great deal of time going over the evidence and examining that person's word.

I think it's funny that you claim that the show isn't available to you, on the one hand but then, on the other, you feel free to comment on what goes on on the show.

 

[Servant222]

Then, again, I have to assume that you don't listen to the show, because on those occasions where they do criticize someone, they spend a great deal of time going over the evidence and examining that person's word.

I think it's funny that you claim that the show isn't available to you, on the one hand but then, on the other, you feel free to comment on what goes on on the show.

I'm commenting on the basis of their WEB sites, and the printed material, and especially the videos, that I have seen. I haven't listened to their radio broadcasts, although now that you've given me the URL, I should be able to figure out how to find it on the Internet.

I have now watched several hours of their videos- what do you think of the fact that when they work the streets near Los Angeles, they offer (in at least one video) a $20 bill to anyone that will stop and chit chat with them while being filmed? Innovative, I must say; but, hey, whatever works I guess- after all, our church offers coffee and donuts and sometimes even lunch or dinner to those who attend.

So if I could follow up with all the people they have interviewed, how many of them will have made a true commitment to the Lord, as they believe other ministries have NOT been able to do?

And again, how do you measure success- by whether a person obtains and uses a Bible, joins a church, or becomes baptized? Or is that not important- that our only obligation is to introduce the Lord to someone and then let the Holy Spirit take over from there.

 

[Willo]

Sucess should be measured on if God gets glorified or not. To go after numbers is to follow the worldy method, no where in Scripture do we see the Apostles going "Well, that didn't work, thus we must change our program!"

In fact if you study the ministry of Jesus you will see that the numbers of people that He had with Him dropped, look at how many saw Him at the ascention, but then go and look at how many obeyed Him in the upper room.

If we are to base everything off statistics then we must conclude that the ministry of the Lord Jesus didn't show much growth, since people left His ministry (john 6).

The question needs to be asked, is it biblical or not? If it isn't then disregard it, if it is then use it.

God gets glorified whenever His word is preached.

 

[Servant222]

On the contrary, there are many references in scripture to the effectiveness of Jesus's ministry; here is the description of Him preaching to the 5000 on the shores of the Sea of Galilee.

John 6:

1Some time after this, Jesus crossed to the far shore of the Sea of Galilee (that is, the Sea of Tiberias), 2and a great crowd of people followed him because they saw the miraculous signs he had performed on the sick. 3Then Jesus went up on a mountainside and sat down with his disciples. 4The Jewish Passover Feast was near.
5When Jesus looked up and saw a great crowd coming toward him, he said to Philip, "Where shall we buy bread for these people to eat?"

I don't believe that God is glorified whenever His word is preached- if that were true, we should be supporting every televangelist out there, even the ones that want to sell us little vials of "holy water".

On the other hand, there is this rather interesting passage in Philippians, which seems to support your comment:

Philippians 1:

15It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains.[c] 18But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.

 

[Servant222]

Sucess should be measured on if God gets glorified or not. To go after numbers is to follow the worldy method, no where in Scripture do we see the Apostles going "Well, that didn't work, thus we must change our program!"

So why does The Way of the Master then pass so much critical comment on other ministries that they claim produce false conversions, and in the end aren't as successful as they allude their ministry is?

Jesus and the Disciples preached ALL their sermons in open air places like the fields near Capernaum, and in a very simple and straightforward way. Are you suggesting that we should do the same- abandon our physical churches, our various styles of worship, ministers, seminary schools, any television or radio ministry, all Internet Christian ministries, and go back to the simple style of worship practiced by Jesus and his disciples?

 

[GPguy]

What exactly is it, you have against Way of The Master's, way of doing things?


Please do let me know, because I am a bit puzzled!!


Do you not understand what they are doing? Because that's really all it seems like to me.


They are just saying people to need to spread the gospel. They are just sharing ways of doing so. Ways which happen to be of the Master (Jesus Christ)


It has that title for a reason! It is supposed to be sharing with others, the way of witnessing, the way Jesus did!


God Bless


Your friend,


Jonathan

 

[MikeMcK]

I'm commenting on the basis of their WEB sites

OK. Can you give us a link to where you saw them doing this?

[/quote]I have now watched several hours of their videos- what do you think of the fact that when they work the streets near Los Angeles, they offer (in at least one video) a $20 bill to anyone that will stop and chit chat with them while being filmed?[/quote]

That isn't exactly what they do. You make it sound as if they say, "Hey, I'll give you twenty dollars if you'll stop to talk to me."

What they do is a trick to draw a crowd so that they can share the Gospel, in which they challenge people show that they're a good with a twenty dollar reward for those who can do it.

So if I could follow up with all the people they have interviewed, how many of them will have made a true commitment to the Lord, as they believe other ministries have NOT been able to do?

I don't know. I don't believe they keep that sort of record.

And again, how do you measure success- by whether a person obtains and uses a Bible, joins a church, or becomes baptized?

By whether or not I've been faithful to Biblical teaching.

 

[Servant222]

They are just saying people to need to spread the gospel. They are just sharing ways of doing so. Ways which happen to be of the Master (Jesus Christ)


Could you provide me with a Bible passage that shows Jesus using this type of confrontational approach?

The closest I was able to come up with is Mark 10, where Jesus is talking with a citizen.

18"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. 19You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.'[d]"

20"Teacher," he declared, "all these I have kept since I was a boy."

At this point, did Jesus ask the man:

"Have you ever lied?"
"Have you ever stolen anything?"
"Have you ever lusted after a woman and committed adultery?"

and then, after the person admits, often with some coaching that, yes, he probably has, follows that with

"Doesn't that make you a lying, thieving, adulterer?"

So, instead

21Jesus looked at him and loved him.

Jesus then asked him to do something that Way of the Master probably won't ask you to do:

"One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

The passage ends with this question from the disciples:

26The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, "Who then can be saved?"

And Jesus answered:

27Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God."

As Christians, I think we have an obligation to be as effective as possible in bringing as many people as possible to an understanding of the Lord, and in helping them to become committed Christians that will become part of a body of believers (a Church!), and be baptized. I personally am wary of any ministry that doesn't make these goals their fundamental objective- like, how else is the church going to grow and flourish?

I believe Christian organizations that have theologically-trained and ordained ministers, subscribe to the type of independent ethical and financial standards adopted by institutions like the ECFA (Evangelical Council For Financial Accountability), and clearly follow the Bible and subscribe to the teachings of the Gospel are more likely to be credible and successful than those that don't follow these standards.

I personally am wary of ministries that doesn't follow these standards, while at the same time being critical of long-established Christian organizations that do. Should we as Christians be concerned about these matters- I think we have to be if we are to ensure that what we do is effective and does not, like some of the ministries that we have seen over the years, hurt the Christian faith, and turn people away from ever considering Jesus as their personal savior and Lord.

Is this ministery more effective than others? In my opinion, no; I think a more gentle, considerate approach is necessary- but absolutely one that follows the Gospel and emphasizes the need for unbelievers to repent and follow Jesus if they wish to be with Him in Paradise.

Could this ministry be effective? I guess time will tell, and I will remain open minded and willing to change. Effective ministries flourish, those that aren't whither away and die.

I think I have now presented my opinions on this issue in an honest and forthright manner. Unless there are new points that need to be addressed, I don't intend to follow it any further.