Water baptism

ByTheSpirit · Dec 29, 2014

yes, through faith... that's exactly what I said. By our faith, God saves us as an act of grace.

If it were God's grace alone that saved, all would be saved, because God gives grace to all people. In his grace he allows us to hear about him, to see the sun and stars that testify of the Creator.

If saving faith came from the Father, all would be saved because he wants all people saved. I may see how he grants the opportunity for faith to all people, but they must accept it.

ByTheSpirit · Dec 29, 2014

FoundInGrace said:
Ok ... but somehow I think you will probably post another one then another one ;-)

I didnt actually read any of it because you said the last one was the last one...

And it would have been had it not been closed... Perhaps you should read what I put there

FoundInGrace · Dec 29, 2014

ByTheSpirit said:
And it would have been had it not been closed... Perhaps you should read what I put there

I did, perhaps you should read what I put there

ByTheSpirit · Dec 29, 2014

FoundInGrace said:
I did, perhaps you should read what I put there

or here is what I meant... They are the same with minor variations...

geetrue · Dec 29, 2014

I for one do not agree with your reasons for thinking, stating and posting that if grace was saving grace the entire world would be saved.

You the servant can not even begin to know what God's grace can and has done in the last 1984 years since the cross.

Jesus said, "it was finished" on the cross

I can't think of a better way to say it myself, "It is finished"

Let it go Bryan your just stirring it up (the community) this is not doing anyone any good.

Get alone with God and have an open me up to your wisdom Lord session with him.

"The reason the battle is not won is because I try to win it in the external world first.
Get alone with God, fight it out before Him, settle the matter there once and for all"

Oswald Chambers

FoundInGrace · Dec 29, 2014

ByTheSpirit said:
or here is what I meant... They are the same with minor variations...

Thanks but It's probably just you listing a whole lot of hoops people have to jump through to get to Heaven.
Not what I'm into.

I believe Jesus - that He paid for my sins on the Cross which means I can now have a relationship with my Heavenly Father and know His incredible love.

Its not difficult its good news.

Alithis · Dec 30, 2014

that's a bit unfair .

ByTheSpirit · Dec 30, 2014

FoundInGrace said:
Thanks but It's probably just you listing a whole lot of hoops people have to jump through to get to Heaven.
Not what I'm into.

I believe Jesus - that He paid for my sins on the Cross which means I can now have a relationship with my Heavenly Father and know His incredible love.

Its not difficult its good news.

Then kindly stay off my posts if all you want to do is complain about them... Thanks

ByTheSpirit · Dec 30, 2014

geetrue said:
I for one do not agree with your reasons for thinking, stating and posting that if grace was saving grace the entire world would be saved.

You the servant can not even begin to know what God's grace can and has done in the last 1984 years since the cross.

Jesus said, "it was finished" on the cross

I can't think of a better way to say it myself, "It is finished"

Let it go Bryan your just stirring it up (the community) this is not doing anyone any good.

Get alone with God and have an open me up to your wisdom Lord session with him.

"The reason the battle is not won is because I try to win it in the external world first.
Get alone with God, fight it out before Him, settle the matter there once and for all"

Oswald Chambers

You are presuming a whole lot here that really is unfortunate. Stirring things up can be good. It fosters discussion. I'm not mad or bitter. If people don't want to talk about sensitive subjects they are in the wrong business. If people don't want to be challenged in their beliefs they belong to a cult. That's what cults do. They say, It's my way or the highway.

I asked a question about baptism, laid out why I feel it is wrong in the church now, and nobody, and I mean nobody has shown me from scripture why I am wrong. Only a lot of assumptions and that 5 letter word that starts with g that everyone says now in church...

Grace, grace, grace, grace, etc.

I'm not going to rehash my points, go through and reread them with an open mind. Most of you probably just read them through your denominational slant and rejected it before you read it because someone here said I was saying something I wasn't.

Joy · Dec 30, 2014

It sounds like you are in a cult wanting all of us to submit to you views.

ByTheSpirit · Dec 30, 2014

MollieSue said:
It sounds like you are in a cult wanting all of us to submit to you views.

I don't want anyone to submit to me or my views. Where did I say that? Actually I believe the purpose of a discussion thread is to DISCUSS a topic. How weird is that, right? Actually discussing the topic instead of the poster. Hmmmm. Anyway, some here have and I respect their views even if I disagree. But again no one has shown me from the scripture where I am wrong.

Stop getting so offended when someone wants to challenge your faith and doctrine. I'm beginning to see why so many unbelievers are remaining unbelievers. Wow...

DawnStar · Dec 30, 2014

ByTheSpirit said:
Stirring things up can be good. It fosters discussion.

In this case it is fostering strife and you know it because you keep starting these water baptism threads again and again. All it takes is one look at the baptism threads you started that have been closed to see that they are filled with strife and controversy.

ByTheSpirit · Dec 30, 2014

DawnStar said:
In this case it is fostering strife and you know it because you keep starting these water baptism threads again and again. All it takes is one look at the baptism threads you started that have been closed to see that they are filled with strife and controversy.

Actually they were only closed because it was determined I was speaking out of the rules of the forum. I was told I could reopen a thread if it conformed to the new rules, which it does.

How about answering my thread and discussing that. That would be a welcome change. Or go and start a fellowship thread about how evil I am, but if you don't want to participate in this discussion then don't. Your criticism of me is not welcome here because it is not the subject of this thread. Thanks

FoundInGrace · Dec 30, 2014

ByTheSpirit said:
Then kindly stay off my posts if all you want to do is complain about them... Thanks

Perhaps ;-)

Always in His Presence · Dec 30, 2014

MollieSue said:
It sounds like you are in a cult wanting all of us to submit to you views.

QFT

DawnStar · Dec 30, 2014

ByTheSpirit said:
How about answering my thread and discussing that. That would be a welcome change. Or go and start a fellowship thread about how evil I am, but if you don't want to participate in this discussion then don't. Your criticism of me is not welcome here because it is not the subject of this thread. Thanks

I am participating because I was responding to a statement you yourself made. I am allowed to respond to statements forum members make that I disagree with thank you. I even gave valid reasons why I disagreed with your statement. If you do not want people to stray from the subject then perhaps you should not stray from the subject yourself.

Edial · Dec 30, 2014

My understanding of the purpose of water Baptism.

Now, no stoning nor booing please.

Baptism in itself is important, but not necessarily in a context of going to Heaven. There is some of it there, but only as one of the ways of expressing the faith. There is thief on the cross, so it is not necessary for salvation.
There is also a Lutheran way which I would keep to myself.

Here it is.

Died=separated. OK. We understand that.

RO 6:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

RO 6:5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin-- 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

The Romans text presents that dying to sin is being separated from sin.
It is also showing that crucifying our sinful nature is how we are separating ourselves from sin.
Now, crucifying the sinful nature does not mean killing it. People on the crosses hung there for days alive, yet crucified.
Sinful nature may be killed only by Spirit, and that can happen only at the Spirit's timing.
I did a Bible study on that how to have this accomplished.

To make the story short(er) and to get to the point ...

- We are born with "cords of Hell" attached to us feeding out sinful nature by Hell (ask for verses if you want to know). These cords are connected to eye, hand, foot, heart, tongue.
Yes, just like we see in sci-fi movies - a baby connected to feeding tubes in some futuristic machine dominated world.

2SA 22:6 The cords of the Sheol (hell) coiled around me;
the snares of death confronted me.

JAS 3:6 The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.

MK 9:43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where `their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'

- During Baptism we die to sin.
Meaning the Old Self gets separated from us. The cords get severed, clipped. The Old Self is still on us, but like an old shirt. But it is no longer glued to our skin.

RO 6:2 ...We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? ...
6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin-- 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

ByTheSpirit · Dec 30, 2014

Edial said:
My understanding of the purpose of water Baptism.

Now, no stoning nor booing please.

Baptism in itself is important, but not necessarily in a context of going to Heaven. There is some of it there, but only as one of the ways of expressing the faith. There is thief on the cross, so it is not necessary for salvation.
There is also a Lutheran way which I would keep to myself.

Here it is.

Died=separated. OK. We understand that.

RO 6:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

RO 6:5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin-- 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

The Romans text presents that dying to sin is being separated from sin.
It is also showing that crucifying our sinful nature is how we are separating ourselves from sin.
Now, crucifying the sinful nature does not mean killing it. People on the crosses hung there for days alive, yet crucified.
Sinful nature may be killed only by Spirit, and that can happen only at the Spirit's timing.
I did a Bible study on that how to have this accomplished.

To make the story short(er) and to get to the point ...

- We are born with "cords of Hell" attached to us feeding out sinful nature by Hell (ask for verses if you want to know). These cords are connected to eye, hand, foot, heart, tongue.
Yes, just like we see in sci-fi movies - a baby connected to feeding tubes in some futuristic machine dominated world.

2SA 22:6 The cords of the Sheol (hell) coiled around me;
the snares of death confronted me.

JAS 3:6 The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.

MK 9:43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where `their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'

- During Baptism we die to sin.
Meaning the Old Self gets separated from us. The cords get severed, clipped. The Old Self is still on us, but like an old shirt. But it is no longer glued to our skin.

RO 6:2 ...We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? ...
6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin-- 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

Good stuff Ed! Thanks for contributing.

I did a study on Romans 6-7 with this particular subject in mind; baptism of course. I found that Paul placed A LOT of importance on baptism as the point of crucifying the flesh. When he says reckon yourselves dead to sin and alive to God, that is a reference to baptism as in "You've been baptized with Christ, now as he died to sin and lived for God, you should too" type thing, culminating with Romans 7:4-6.

Just my thoughts on that particular area. Its the way I read it anyway

ByTheSpirit · Dec 30, 2014

People tell me the thief on the cross wasn't baptized and yet reached heaven so that proves that we don't need baptism really ever to be saved.

Let me point a couple things that I think are wrong with that view.

1) The Bible says that all Jerusalem, Judea, and the surrounding areas were going to John to be baptized (Matthew 3:5-6). This thief could well have been among the multitudes that were baptized by John and then for whatever reason fell away for a time. We know the purpose of the baptism of John was to prepare people to receive the Messiah who was coming. So while this is an assumption, it really is an assumption either way. Yes the Bible doesn't mention his baptism, but it also doesn't say he wasn't baptism either. Kinda like saying, "Well the Bible doesn't mention dinosaurs so the dinosaurs never existed." Its a fallacy argument.

2) What is the gospel message? Jesus died, was buried, and crucified (1 Corinthians 15:3-4). So how could this thief have believed according to the gospel if Jesus hadn't even died yet when he asked for "remembrance"? He couldn't. We know from several accounts in the gospels that Jesus had authority to forgive sins while on Earth. That is merely what Jesus was doing on the cross, as he had done several times before. This thief on the cross was redeemed under the Old Covenant as were those who came before. Actually, in all likelihood, this thief on the cross was the last person to ever receive redemption in such a way. Sure Jesus died before this thief did in all likelihood, but no way was Jesus buried before or resurrected before. So the thief could not be a "born again" believer in that sense of the word, like you and me.

So using the thief on the cross as proof that baptism isn't necessary ever is really a misplaced position.

Edial · Dec 30, 2014

ByTheSpirit said:
Good stuff Ed! Thanks for contributing.

I did a study on Romans 6-7 with this particular subject in mind; baptism of course. I found that Paul placed A LOT of importance on baptism as the point of crucifying the flesh. When he says reckon yourselves dead to sin and alive to God, that is a reference to baptism as in "You've been baptized with Christ, now as he died to sin and lived for God, you should too" type thing, culminating with Romans 7:4-6.

Just my thoughts on that particular area. Its the way I read it anyway

The reason water Baptism is seemingly associated with salvation in some verses yet it is not in others, it is because Baptism appears to be a necessary step, link in sanctification.

Now, I am a Lutheran and we believe in a literal Baptism. There is something going on during the process itself. Nothing symbolic.

But it is not salvation, but a necessary step in having your old self separated from you. The chains un-clipped. Severed from the cords of hell.

Baptism makes sanctification easier.

Lutherans believe in infant baptism - give the kid an earlier break in life.

Thanks,
Ed

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