Water Baptism

[GLJCA]

Amen Dispy. "IF" we believe what the scripture SAYS, then its clear that we are NOT baptized into WATER...but identified with HIM (the true meaning of baptism is to be identified WITH something or someone) in His DEATH. When HE died, WE died to our OLD identity in Adam and became NEWLY identified with our NEW identity IN CHRIST...we actually become part of a LIVING ORGANISM referred to as "the church, which is His BODY".

How anyone can diminish the meaning of this awesome occurance by thinking it has to do with WATER is beyond me. Water baptism was REQUIRED for the JEW under the KINGDOM PROGRAM of times PAST...they were the NATION of Priests and this was something they HAD to do.

OUR baptism, the ONE baptism spoken of in Eph 4:5 is done BY the Spirit when He identifies us with Christs death, burial and resurrection and places us into the BODY of Christ...a brand NEW entity that didnt exist before Paul was saved and given the revelation of the MYSTERY.

Yes you are right. The true meaning of water baptism is to be identified with Christ. We are baptized into His body by the Holy Spirit when we are water baptized not before. We do actually become part of the church, Christ's body, when we are water baptized as it is the sign of the New Covenant.

GLJCA

 

[GLJCA]

there is not TWO Spirit baptism or two types. read eph 4. there is ONLY ONE. you do NOT receive the indwelling until you receive the baptism. the baptism of the Spirit is when the Spirit comes to indwell in you. Again in eph 1:13-14 it says CLEARLY that we receive the Spirit when we believe. it DOES NOT say when we believe and are water baptized. gal 3:27 it says we were baptized INTO christ, what is christ, he is the body,(1 cor 12:13). gal 4:6 God sent the SPirit of his son INTO our hearts. Gal 3:14 ..So that by Faith we might receive the promised of the Spirit. Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ and i no longer live but christ lives in me. the life i live in the BODY i live by FAITH in the son of God,.. gal 3 Did you receive the Spirit by observing the Law or by believing what you heard. (the gospel) Rom 8:2 Because through Christ Jesus the LAW OF THE SPIRIT OF LIFE set me FREE from the Law of sin and death. rom 8:8 THOSE CONTROLLLED BY THE SINFUL NATURE CONNOT PLEASE GOD. tell me are you in sin when you are getting ready to be water baptized. or is the fact that you desided to get water baptized free you from sin. NOPE you say it is being OBEDIANT to God to get water baptized. you say getting water baptized is when you get the baptism of the Spirit or receive it.(though scripture says otherwise) HOW might i ask can you be OBEDIANT when the passages i just gave say you cannot please GOd with out it or in sin. if you are not saved you are not free from sinfull nature. rom 8:9.... And if anyone does NOT have the SPirit of Christ; he does NOT belong to Christ. AGIAN you have to PROVE we can be obediant in our sinfull nature, when scripture says we cant with out the SPirit. and with scripture i might add since that is what you asked of me.

Again you mix up the baptism with the Spirit with the baptism of the Holy Spirit. In the baptism with the Spirit we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:5) , but the baptism of the Spirit we are placed into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit (1Cor 12:13).

You are lumping the two together and they are not the same scripturally.

Sorry I have not been able to devote more time to this subject but I am on my 51 straight night at work. We had to shutdown the refinery and that doesn't give me much time to debate the Word, but we are almost back to normal and I will be back soon.

GLJCA

 

[Dispy]

heymikey80:

There are at least 12 different baptisms mentioned in the Bible.

The 12 Baptisms in the Bible:

7 baptisms do not repuire water of which 2 are REAL, 5 are FIGURATIVE. Five (5) are CEREMONIAL which are a water ceremony.

REAL:
1. Christ Baptizing with the Holy Spirit: Mt3:11; Lk3:16; Jn,1:33, Ac11:15,16.
2. The Holy Spirit Baptizing into the Body of Christ: 1Cor12:13; Co2:11,12; Ga3:27; Ep4:5; (The only referenced to water baptism in Paul's Epistles is found in 1Co1:13-14.)

FIGURATIVE:
1. Death baptism: Mt;20:22,23; Mk10:38,39; Lk12:50.
2. Baptism of fire: Mt3:11; Lk3:16; 2Th1:7,8.
3. Antitype baptism: 1Pe3:18-21; cf Ps42:7, cf Co2:17.
4. Baptism for the dead: 1Co 15:29.
5. Baptism into Moses: 1Co10:2.

CEREMONIAL:
1. Diverse baptisms of the Law (not a NT inovation, cf Jn1:25) Ex30:17-21; Lev11:25; He9:10.
2. Traditional Jewish baptisms: Mk7:1-9 (Does not mean a burial or an immersion: Lk11:38).
3. John's Baptism for the remission of sins: Mt3:6-16; Lk7:29:30; Jn1:31.
4. Christ's Baptism by John to fulfill all righteousness: Mt3:14.
5. Pentecostal Water Baptism: Mt28:19; Mk16:16; Ac2:38,41; 8:12,13,16,36,38; 9:18; 1047,48; 22:16.

From the book "Dictionary of the Gospel" by Thomas Bruscha," and the entire book can be found, and read, at http://www.graceimpact.org/GHBM1/frams3.htm

"B A P T I S M"

BAPTISM: means To Place Into, or On; For The Purpose Of Identification

It is a surprise to many people, including Christians, to learn that the word"BAPTISM" does not mean to immerse into water! Of course there is a "water baptism" in the Bible, but the word "BAPTISM" does not mean to place into water. "Water Baptism" is only one (1) of twelve (12) different baptisms spoken of in the Scriptures. Years of tradition have taught most people to think of "water" every time they read the word "baptism" in their Bible. This has caused great confusion.

Just a simple examination of the usage of the term "BAPTISM" in the Bible will teach us NOT to think of water as part of the meaning of the word, but to substitute the meaning "PLACE INTO" or "PLACE ON." The context in each case will determine what it is that someone or something is being placed into.

We do not have the space to look into all twelve (12) different usages of the term, but we will look at five (5) of them. There are three (3) "BAPTISMS" found in just one verse, Matthew 3:11, which says:

"I INDEED BAPTIZE YOU WITH WATER UNTO REPENTANCE: BUT HE THAT COMETH AFTER ME IS MIGHTIER THAN I, WHOSE SHOES I AM NOT WORTH TO BEAR: HE SHALL BAPTIZE YOU WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT AND WITH FIRE."
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BAPTISM #1

"WATER BAPTISM"

(John Baptized with water)

John the Baptist placed people into water or, as some may prefer it said, John placed water on people. Either way John's Baptism was a "water baptism." Its purpose was to identify the believing remnant of Israel with their Messiah - Jesus Christ. (By the way, the reason Jesus Christ was water baptized was for the same reason, only in reverse.) According to John 1:31, Jesus Christ was identified to Israel, and Israel to Him, through water baptism. John the Baptist was the forerunner of Jesus Christ who announced to Israel His coming and prepared them to be received by their King through the cleansing of water baptism. This is why John announced that one greater--with a greater baptism--was coming.
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BAPTISM #2

"BAPTISM WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT"

The greater person John was speaking of was the Lord Jesus Christ. According to the testimony of John, when Christ came He would have a greater baptism. John baptized with water, but Jesus Christ will baptize with the Holy Spirit. This was a reference to the Day of Pentecost which took place after the resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ back into heaven - see Acts 1:5-8 and Acts 2:1-5. From heaven, the Lord Jesus Christ "Poured Out" or placed His Spirit on that believing remnant of Israel, just as John promised and as was predicted in Joel 2:28-32.
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BAPTISM #3

"BAPTISM WITH FIRE"

John not only introduced and identified the believing remnant of Israel to Jesus Christ, he also warned unrepenting and unbelieving Israel that Jesus Christ would have two (2) baptisms when he came. Believing Israel would be baptized with the Holy Spirit, which is the imparting of Life. Unbelieving Israel would be baptized with fire. This "baptism of fire" is the judgment of the fires of hell, according to Matthew 3:12. This will take place when Jesus Christ shall place unbelievers into the fires of hell. Thank the Lord, Jesus Christ has saved us who believe from that baptism!

Already in this one verse we have seen three (3) different types of BAPTISM; baptism with water, baptism with the Holy Spirit, and even baptism with fire. Notice only one involved water!

Let this be a lesson to you. Do not think of "water" every time you read the word "baptism." Let the Bible tell you what the baptism is into. Then be sure to believe what the Bible says and not what some men will say the Bible means.
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BAPTISM #4

"BAPTISM INTO DEATH"

For the fourth (4th) baptism, see Mark 10:38,39,45. In this passage a baptism yet laid ahead for the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the future for James and John as well.

When our Lord spoke of a baptism that he was facing, he was speaking of his death on the Cross. He was placed on the cross for the purpose of having our sins placed on him. And, by identifying Himself with our sins, He paid for them in His death. Jesus Christ was baptized into our death. This is also spoken of in Luke 12:50 and again in I Peter 3:21. It is called:

"THE BAPTISM THAT NOW SAVES"!

In the case of James and John this baptism speaks of their martyr's death. Jesus Christ prophesied and history has recorded that both James and John were placed into death preaching the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. They died for the sake of others - so that others may hear the gospel and be saved. This is the baptism that Paul was speaking about in I Corinthians 15:29.
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BAPTISM #5

"BAPTISM INTO CHRIST"

The fifth (5th) and final BAPTISM we shall look at is a baptism which is taught exclusively by the Apostle Paul in his epistles. It is the fact that the Apostle Paul mentions water baptism only one time in all of his epistles. This one time is found in I Corinthians 1:13-17. As water baptism continued into the New Gentile age, it brought confusion and division (just as it is doing in the churches today). Paul's solution was simple: stop water baptizing! But how could he decide to stop? Didn't Jesus Christ command him to baptize? No! After Paul thanked God and he didn't baptize more than he did, he states in verse 17:

"FOR CHRIST SENT ME NOT TO BAPTIZE BUT TO PREACH THE GOSPEL: NOT WITH WISDOM OF WORDS, LEST THE CROSS OF CHRIST SHOULD BE MADE OF NONE EFFECT."

Paul was the Apostle of a new age of God's grace. His message and ministry to the Gentiles was distinctly different from the message and ministry of the Twelve Apostles to Israel. Water baptism belonged to the message God had for the nation of Israel. However, there is a baptism taught by the Apostle that is for this age. Be careful to notice it is not water baptism. Paul writes in I Corinthians 12:13.

"FOR BY ONE SPIRIT ARE ALL BAPTIZED INTO ONE BODY, WHETHER WE BE JEWS OR GENTILES, WHETHER WE BE BOND OR FREE; AND HAVE BEEN ALL MADE TO DRINK INTO ONE SPIRIT."

The baptism that the Apostle Paul taught was a baptism into Christ. This baptism is the placing of the Believer (today) into the Body of Christ. It is important for you to realize that in I Corinthians 12:13 (just quoted), the baptizer is not a minister but God the Holy Spirit. From this verse, we can also see that the Holy Spirit does not place the believer into water but into Christ! Here again, we need to remember to believe what the Bible say, and not what men say the Bible means.

This "Baptism into Christ" is the baptism that identifies the Believer with the saving work of the Cross. Romans 6:3-5 teaches this baptism so clearly. The moment I trusted in Jesus Christ as my Savior, the Holy Spirit of God placed me into Christ's death (the cross where my sins were paid for) and into His burial (the payment is complete) and into Christ's resurrection (where I now have a new life in Christ). Since this "baptism" is the work of the Holy Spirit, some have properly termed this "Spiritual Baptism." Without a doubt it is this baptism that Paul teaches throughout his epistles as seen in Romans 6:3-5, I Corinthians 12:13, Galatians 3:27, Ephesians 4:5, and Colossians 2:10-13.

Our baptism into Christ is the basis for our forgiveness of sins. This is the real baptism that supersedes any ritual baptism previously taught. It is the reality of all that God has accomplished in my behalf through Jesus Christ!

To protect the truth of this baptism, God instructs us in Ephesians 4:1-6 to:

"KEEP (GUARD) THE UNITY OF THE SPIRIT..."

We guard this unity by holding to, and defending His sevenfold unity:

"THERE IS ONE BODY, AND ONE SPIRIT, EVEN AS YE ARE CALLED IN ONE HOPE OF YOUR CALLING; ONE LORD, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM, ONE GOD, AND FATHER OF ALL, WHO IS ABOVE ALL, AND THROUGH ALL, AND IN YOU ALL."

According to this verse, there is only one (1) baptism today for the Believer which we are to hold and guard. This baptism is not water baptism. It is the BAPTISM BY THE SPIRIT INTO THE BODY OF CHRIST. It is the work of the Holy Spirit Himself which has created a spiritual unity all of the Believers today, in Christ. Anyone who is still water baptizing is causing confusion and division by practicing a baptism which we have not been told to continue doing in the church epistles; and by believing in at least two baptisms for today, when the Scriptures tell us to keep the unity of the Spirit by holding to His one baptism.

Putting it all together, this is what we see. John the Baptist offered the nation of Israel forgiveness of their sins through water baptism. Those of the nation who received the baptism with the Holy Kingdom and will be raised to go into the Kingdom which was promised to them and was being proclaimed by Jesus Christ in His earthly ministry. But the baptism of fire did not come as John said it would. The judgment of the baptism of fire has been postponed along with the offer of the Kingdom promised to Israel. In the meantime, God has raised up the Apostle Paul with a message of grace which goes out today to both the rejecting Jew and to Gentiles concerning an equal opportunity they have been given (through Jesus Christ's death, burial, and resurrection) to be saved, justified, and forgiven. Upon believing this message, God the Holy Spirit is baptizing these Believers into the Body of Christ. And "IN CHRIST" we have life, and hope, and an inheritance.

Israel was offered life, and hope, and inheritance according to the promises of God in the Old Testament. But we who are saved today were never promised these things. Yet they have been given to us by GRACE

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often, Love the Lord!

 

[Dispy]

Yes you are right. The true meaning of water baptism is to be identified with Christ. We are baptized into His body by the Holy Spirit when we are water baptized not before. We do actually become part of the church, Christ's body, when we are water baptized as it is the sign of the New Covenant.

GLJCA

CHAPTER AND VERSE PLEASE.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY. Wish you many more.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[GLJCA]

CHAPTER AND VERSE PLEASE.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY. Wish you many more.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Thank you. Wow you are up early. I am on my way to bed in about an hour. My days and nights are reversed but I only have two more days of this and I go back to a normal schedule.

Chapter and verse. I have shown you the comparison of circumcision as the OT sign of the covenant and baptism as the NT sign of the covenant. I have shown scripturally the fact that both signify the same things. It would be redundant to go over all that again but if you wish I will do it.

Dispy I appreciate your catagorizing the different baptisms, but only one of those baptisms were we commanded to do. Only one, which is water baptism. Why? Because it places us into the body of Christ just like circumcision placed the proselyte into the Covenant people of God in the OT. The comparison is obvious if you study it. For two thousand years the church has believed that water baptism entered the person into the body of Christ. It wasn't until the Anabaptists in the 1500s that the belief concerning baptism started to change, and that was because they were only looking at the New Testament instead of the whole bible.

Oh I will have an answer to your #75 soon, I promise. I do not shirk back from questions or comments.

God bless and have a great day
GLJCA

 

[eph3Nine]

GLJCA...water baptism doesnt do anything but get us WET, and NOWHERE in Pauls epistles are we, the Body of Christ EVER told to be water baptized.

It surely doesnt place us in the Body of Christ, as the HOLY SPIRIT is the One who does that with the ONE baptism of Eph. 4:5. If you add WATER to that equation, it makes TWO...NOT ONE.

Think it thru...water isnt what we are identified with, GLJCA...Jesus didnt DROWN! We are identified with His death, burial and resurrection.

 

[Dispy]

Thank you. Wow you are up early. I am on my way to bed in about an hour. My days and nights are reversed but I only have two more days of this and I go back to a normal schedule.

Chapter and verse. I have shown you the comparison of circumcision as the OT sign of the covenant and baptism as the NT sign of the covenant. I have shown scripturally the fact that both signify the same things. It would be redundant to go over all that again but if you wish I will do it.

You have shown us, no doubt from your church doctrine, that water baptism is a sign of the New Covenant. I know of no verse of Scripture that says that.

Circumcision was a sign of the Covenant to Abramham, as it was required of all Jews, and proselytes, to be circumcisied if they were to receive Israel's blessings through the Covenants. It did not save one Jew, and in fact many circumcised Jews were never saved.

Baptism was was instituted for entrance of Levitical Priests into the Aaronic Priesthood. They were all members of the Tribe of Levi, and a ceremonial washing (baptism) was required for entrance. See Exodus 30:17-21).

God told Moses in Exodus 19:3-8 to tell the children of Israel that if they would obey His commandments, then they would become a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.

Therefore, when John the Baptist came and preached "the gospel of the kingdom," he was preparing the way of the Lord, and the nation of Israel to become that holy nation of priests; through which the nations of the world were to be blessed. Therefore, he came baptizing for the remission of their sins.

At Pentecost, the repentants that were water baptized also received the added gifts of the Spirit, by Jesus, as John stated in Matthew 3:11. Both circumcision and water baptism was in force at that time.

The gifts were to show the nations that they were of God. Baptism had nothing to do with the Covenants to Israel.

Abram was saved/justified just because he showed his FAITH by believing God. Being circumcised had nothing to do with, and from all outward appearacnes, one couldn't not tell he was circumcised. So what was the sign?

When water baptism was required, it was to demonstrate their FAITH. After baptism, what was the sign of their salvation/justification, and that they were under the covenants. When water baptism was required, circumcision was also still in effect. Is circumcision still required today?

Today there is only one baptism required. It is the one aptism of Ephesians 4:5. That baptism is the Spirit baptizing the believer into The Body of Christ. There is no water involved. Water baptism plus Spirit baptism are two baptisms. Which one is the "one baptism" of Eph. 4:5?

Your comparison of circumcision and water baptism comes from some denominational church doctrine. I know, I came from a denomination that taught much of the same thing you are trying to sell.

Being reared in a strict Calvinist home, and educated in their "Christian" School, neither my teachers or pastor show show me what you believe from the Scripture. Yes, they do spiritualize it to make it fit their doctrine.

God to other denominational churches, and they will spiritualize it just a little differen just to fit their doctrine of men.

Dispy I appreciate your catagorizing the different baptisms, but only one of those baptisms were we commanded to do. Only one, which is water baptism. Why? Because it places us into the body of Christ just like circumcision placed the proselyte into the Covenant people of God in the OT. The comparison is obvious if you study it. For two thousand years the church has believed that water baptism entered the person into the body of Christ. It wasn't until the Anabaptists in the 1500s that the belief concerning baptism started to change, and that was because they were only looking at the New Testament instead of the whole bible.

Yes, water baptism was required at one time. Can't deny that. Water baptism DOES NOT place us into the Body of Christ. 1Cor.12:13 says that it is the Spirit (Holy Spirit) that places us into The Body of Christ. SHOW ME the water in that verse.

Oh I will have an answer to your #75 soon, I promise. I do not shirk back from questions or comments.

God bless and have a great day
GLJCA

That will make me SOhappy. I have been waiting "paitently" (?) for sometime now.

 

[GLJCA]

You have shown us, no doubt from your church doctrine, that water baptism is a sign of the New Covenant. I know of no verse of Scripture that says that.

No Dispy, I have shown you from the scriptures where baptism is the circumcision of Christ Col 2:11-12. I have shown you the comparison between circumcision and baptism from scripture not from church doctrine.

Remember we are comparing the physical sign of circumcision with the physical sign of baptism, apples to apples. You are trying to compare the physical with the spiritual (apples to oranges) and that is why you are in error. God required both the physical and the spiritual.
Circumcision, according to Paul, was a sign of righteousness already present (Rom. 4:9-12): Abraham was already justified; therefore, he was circumcised on the basis of his already-existent righteousness. This is just as true of baptism (Mk. 16:16). Individuals are baptized on the basis of the sound assumption that they are already justified by the grace of God.
Similarly, circumcision signifies cleansing from sin (Dt. 10:16; 30:6), just as baptism does (Ac. 22:16). Circumcision signifies the casing away of the old man and old life and the assumption of the new life in God; baptism signifies the casing away of the old man and old life and the assumption of the new life in Christ (Rom. 6:1-6).
Likewise, just circumcision was a mark signifying the inclusion of the subject in the visible covenant people of God, national Israel (Ex. 12:44 f.; Phil. 3:5), so baptism is a mark signifying the inclusion of the subject in the visible covenant people of God, the church (1 Cor. 12:12, 13).
The two are signifying the same things in scripture.
I asked you to prove to me that 1 Cor 12:13, Romans 6:4, Gal 3:27, and I will add Col 2:11-12 in that, isn't speaking of water baptism. You answered that with an article that didn't answer my question. There is no proof because water baptism is the one baptism that we are commanded to do. Spirit baptism is when the Holy Spirit baptizes us into the body of Christ which happens to those who are ordained to eternal life when they are water baptized. Just as a Jew could not be circumcised of the heart without the circumcision in the flesh a person today can not have the spiritual without the physical.

Cornelius, as you said, was not baptized until after he had received the Holy Spirit, so tell me why did he need to be water baptized? He did not become a proselyte of the Jewish religion he became a Christian. Abraham was circumcised after he believed because it was required of him to take on the physical sign of the covenant, likewise Cornelius was baptized after he believed and received the Holy Spirit because he was required to receive the sign of the New Covenant or he would have been disobedient to God because God commanded that we he be baptized.

What do you think would have happened if when God told Abraham to be circumcised, Abe would have told God that it was not needed and he wouldn't do it? I don't think Abraham would have been the Father of the faithful nor would he have been in covenant with God any longer.

I also asked you to tell me where we are commanded to be spirit baptized?
You have not done that either. The article that you posted did not answer my question nor did it prove that the baptism spoken of in those verses is not water baptism.

You see, the burden of proof lies with you because you are the one who is proposing a change from orthodoxy. For hundreds of years the church believed that water baptism was the sign of the New Covenant and was required to enter into the Church, the body of Christ.

When water baptism was required, it was to demonstrate their FAITH. After baptism, what was the sign of their salvation/justification, and that they were under the covenants. When water baptism was required, circumcision was also still in effect. Is circumcision still required today?

Today there is only one baptism required. It is the one aptism of Ephesians 4:5. That baptism is the Spirit baptizing the believer into The Body of Christ. There is no water involved. Water baptism plus Spirit baptism are two baptisms. Which one is the "one baptism" of Eph. 4:5?

I will say to you like you said to me, Chapter and verse, please. There is no scripture that shows that water baptism is no longer required and I think you know that you can not produce one. You have to read it into scripture which is error. Could you show me where Eph 4:5 says that the one baptism is spirit? I don't see spirit nor water in that verse, therefore you have to follow the context of the whole canon, which will show that the baptism we are commanded to do is water baptism. Therefore the one baptism is water baptism.

You are saying that God changed hundreds of years of covenant history in doing away with the physical sign of the covenant and yet explained to no one of the change. The apostles never explained to the churches under their charge that water baptism was no longer needed. Nor did God have the apostles explain it in the Holy scriptures so that we could see plainly that water baptism is not needed. There is not one scripture where we are told that water baptism is no longer required.

The fact is when there was a change God explained it to the people through the apostles and prophets. They thoroughly explained to the people how that the perfect sacrifice of Jesus negated the need for animal sacrifice in Hebrews. If you will notice every time the gospel was given in Acts, the apostles went all the way back to Abraham and taught them through the whole Old Testament. Jesus validated his ministry using the Old Testament prophets (Luke 24:27), Peter validated Christ in Acts 2 using the OT, Stephen in Acts 7 did the same, Phillip in Acts 8 preached Jesus to the eunuch from the book of Isaiah, and Peter again went back to through the OT with Cornelius in Acts 10. Thorough explanation was given to the Jews and Gentiles of the changes that had taken place. Yet no where do we find an explanation that the physical sign of baptism is no longer needed.

GLJCA

 

[GLJCA]

I accidently posted the same message twice, sorry.

GLJCA

 

[GLJCA]

I am not a Jew or spiritual Jew. I am a member of The Body of Christ where there is no distinction between the Jew and Gentile. So, How can one say that they will receive that promise given to Israel apply to those of another nation? BTW, Isn't Israel, as a nation, presently in a set aside condition? Aren't their eyes darkened "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (see Rm.11:7-25)? When does the fulness of the Gentiles come in?

If the Gentiles were grafted into Israel, and Israel is presently in a set aside condition (as a nation, Israel still doesn't recognize Jesus as their Messiah), what benefit would I receive by becoming a spiritual Jew. Their OT promises are still for future fulfillment. They won't be fulfilled until after the Church, The Body of Christ, is raptured to heaven, "...to ever be with the Lord" (1Thess.4:17).

The prophesy in Jer. 31:31-34 is to the house of Israel and the house of Judah. Jesus Himself said in Matthew 15:24 "I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israd." Paul tells us that Jesus came "...to confirm the promises made to the fathers" (Rm. 15:8).

Matthew 26:27-29 "And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them saying, Drink ye all of it: For this is my blood of the new testament (covenant), which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of tyhe vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Fathers's kingdom."

At the time Jesus spoke these words, the Gentiles were still in a set aside condition and have been since the Tower of Babel in Genesis 11. Jesus is only speaking to Jews and speaking of the promise back in Jeremiah 31:31-34. These verses are referenced also in Hebrews 8:7-13. Also, at the time that Jesus spoke these words, Israel was not yet in a set aside condition, as the Gentiles were.

Tell me, How can this covenant with Isreal be in effect today when Israel, as a nation, is set aside. Even the disciples of Jesus recognized that their commission could not be carried at when they, at the council at Jerusalem, agreed with Paul, in Galatians 2:9, that he should go to the uncircumcision (heathen/Gentiles) and that they would stay with the circumcision (Jews). They now realized that God is no longer dealing with Israel as His favorite people, and their "so called" great commission to all the world could not be carried out.

I love it when people ask me this question.

God promised the New Covenant to Israel in Jer 31. He promised to give them a new heart in Eze 36:26. Unbelieving Israel rejected God's offer and therefore was cut off of the olive tree. Yet did all Israel reject God's offer? Absolutely not!!!! Only the unbelieving Jews were cut out of the Olive tree, which is covenant Israel. The believing Jews, such as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, Rahab, Sarah, Rachel, etc. remained in the olive tree. When we as Gentiles were grafted into the olive tree we became as much Covenant Israel as Isaac was, Gal 4:28. Why would God punish those who faithfully believed in Him, along with the unbelieving Jews? That wouldn't make sense. He never did that before or since. Why would we believe that He would do that then?

When we, as Gentiles, believed we were grafted into that same olive tree that the believing Jews we in. Paul said that we partake of the fatness of the root of the tree.
Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; We know what the root of the tree is but what is the fatness of the olive tree? The covenant blessings that God made to Covenant Israel, of course. We are now partaking in the blessings of that God promised to Abraham.
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
You see apart from the promises that God gave to Abraham you nor I could possibly have forgiveness of sins. You nor I could possibly be called the people of God. You nor I could possibly have a new heart or have the stony one taken away. All the things that you say that you have in Christ are the promises of the New Covenant, that you say is not in effect today.

We have become the Israel of God when we were grafted into the olive tree, which is covenant Israel.

What you are calling Israel today is a nation of unbelievers that is considered heathen. The only way for them to be considered the people of God again is to be grafted back into the olive tree, which will make them part of the Church of Jesus Christ. Dispensationalists can not abide in the truth of Romans 11 because it destroys the foundational teaching of Dispensationalism.

I will ask you the question, What does Romans 11:17-24 mean to you?

I will get to the rest of your #75 post when I have time.

GLJCA

 

[Dispy]

Dispy's remarks in blue.

I am not a Jew or spiritual Jew. I am a member of The Body of Christ where there is no distinction between the Jew and Gentile. So, How can one say that they will receive that promise given to Israel apply to those of another nation? BTW, Isn't Israel, as a nation, presently in a set aside condition? Aren't their eyes darkened "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (see Rm.11:7-25)? When does the fulness of the Gentiles come in?

If the Gentiles were grafted into Israel, and Israel is presently in a set aside condition (as a nation, Israel still doesn't recognize Jesus as their Messiah), what benefit would I receive by becoming a spiritual Jew. Their OT promises are still for future fulfillment. They won't be fulfilled until after the Church, The Body of Christ, is raptured to heaven, "...to ever be with the Lord" (1Thess.4:17).

The prophesy in Jer. 31:31-34 is to the house of Israel and the house of Judah. Jesus Himself said in Matthew 15:24 "I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israd." Paul tells us that Jesus came "...to confirm the promises made to the fathers" (Rm. 15:8).

Matthew 26:27-29 "And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them saying, Drink ye all of it: For this is my blood of the new testament (covenant), which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of tyhe vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Fathers's kingdom."

At the time Jesus spoke these words, the Gentiles were still in a set aside condition and have been since the Tower of Babel in Genesis 11. Jesus is only speaking to Jews and speaking of the promise back in Jeremiah 31:31-34. These verses are referenced also in Hebrews 8:7-13. Also, at the time that Jesus spoke these words, Israel was not yet in a set aside condition, as the Gentiles were.

Tell me, How can this covenant with Isreal be in effect today when Israel, as a nation, is set aside. Even the disciples of Jesus recognized that their commission could not be carried at when they, at the council at Jerusalem, agreed with Paul, in Galatians 2:9, that he should go to the uncircumcision (heathen/Gentiles) and that they would stay with the circumcision (Jews). They now realized that God is no longer dealing with Israel as His favorite people, and their "so called" great commission to all the world could not be carried out.

First of all, you did not answers my questions above.

I love it when people ask me this question.

God promised the New Covenant to Israel in Jer 31. He promised to give them a new heart in Eze 36:26. Unbelieving Israel rejected God's offer and therefore was cut off of the olive tree. Yet did all Israel reject God's offer? Absolutely not!!!! Only the unbelieving Jews were cut out of the Olive tree, which is covenant Israel. The believing Jews, such as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, Rahab, Sarah, Rachel, etc. remained in the olive tree. When we as Gentiles were grafted into the olive tree we became as much Covenant Israel as Isaac was, Gal 4:28. Why would God punish those who faithfully believed in Him, along with the unbelieving Jews? That wouldn't make sense. He never did that before or since. Why would we believe that He would do that then?

When we, as Gentiles, believed we were grafted into that same olive tree that the believing Jews we in. Paul said that we partake of the fatness of the root of the tree.
Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; We know what the root of the tree is but what is the fatness of the olive tree? The covenant blessings that God made to Covenant Israel, of course. We are now partaking in the blessings of that God promised to Abraham.
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
You see apart from the promises that God gave to Abraham you nor I could possibly have forgiveness of sins. You nor I could possibly be called the people of God. You nor I could possibly have a new heart or have the stony one taken away. All the things that you say that you have in Christ are the promises of the New Covenant, that you say is not in effect today.

We have become the Israel of God when we were grafted into the olive tree, which is covenant Israel.

What you are calling Israel today is a nation of unbelievers that is considered heathen. The only way for them to be considered the people of God again is to be grafted back into the olive tree, which will make them part of the Church of Jesus Christ. Dispensationalists can not abide in the truth of Romans 11 because it destroys the foundational teaching of Dispensationalism.

I will ask you the question, What does Romans 11:17-24 mean to you?


Romans 11:17 "And if some of the branches be broken off (unbelieving Israel), and thou, being a wild olive tree (believing Gentiles), wert graffed in among them (AMONG THEM, not into them), and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree."

The root of the olive tree is where the tree itself gets it nurishment. Jesus is the source of Isreal blessings (fatness). We believing Gentiles are AMONG (not part of) the believing branches (Israel). We get our blessing (fatness) from the same source, which is Jesus Christ.

The fruit of the wild olive tree is different from the fruit of the natural olive tree. The graffed branches' fruit does not change.

This past summer I had a large apple tree removed from my back yard. That tree produced 5 different type of apples. Four of the brances were graffed in. The graffed branches were among the natural branches, and their fruit never changed. However, they all got their nurishment from the same source, the roots.

As I said above, I am not a Jew or spiritual Jew. My salvation, and my final destiny (heaven) comes from Jesus. Israel's salvation, and final destiny (earthly kingdom) come from Jesus. Our fatness (blessings) come from the same source.

Verse 17 is the key in understanding verses 18-24. Once we understand verse 17 in its proper context, the rest should be pretty much self explanitory.

We members of The Body of Christ must remember not to get too haughty.

I just love it when I am asked to explain Romans 11:17-24.

I will get to the rest of your #75 post when I have time.

GLJCA

Like I said, I can hardly wait.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[heymikey80]

heymikey80:

There are at least 12 different baptisms mentioned in the Bible.

You're splitting up things that aren't split up in the Apostles' minds.

the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience 1 Pt 3:20-21
​

Your citation of Thomas Bruscha does not hold water(!) with anyone outside Pauline Dispensationalism. And so his idea of what the words meant 2000 years ago are about as good as ... oh, Ellen White's, or Joseph Smith's.

A quote from the book you're citing should prove that:

... Confusion begins by not paying attention to "Who" is being addressed in a passage of the Bible; and then, not believing that when God addresses "Israel," He means Israel.
There is a portion of the Bible that specifically addresses US - Gentiles and Jews of this age. It is the books of Romans through Philemon. Now let's see how knowing this fact clears up much confusion.

​

It is commonly taught that there is only one gospel in the Bible. (I'm not speaking of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John which are sometimes called the four Gospels.) I'm talking about the proclamation of the gospel in the Bible. Many--in fact most--believe that all the New Testament preachers (John the Baptist, Jesus Christ, the Twelve Apostles, and the Apostle Paul) preached the same gospel. This is totally unscriptural! The Bible speaks of several gospels: "THE GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM," "THE GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD," THE GOSPEL OF PEACE," "THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL," "THE GOSPEL OF THE CIRCUMCISION," "THE GOSPEL OF THE UNCIRCUMCISION," etc. These are not all synonymous terms for the gospel. http://www.gracebibleministries.org/GBMstudies/DictGospel/01bConf.html

​

We're talking about a language people use everyday. This is not some "superspiritualized" language used solely in the NT.

It's really clear that the early readers read the NT plainly. They read water, and they also knew about the figurative senses, and connected those figurative senses together with water baptism. So baptism is One: although threaded-through the water-rite the implications of that water rite mean much more than just a bath (Rom 6:3, Gal 3:27, Col 2:12, 1 Pt 3:20-21, 1 Cor 1:13, 12:13, 10:2, ). And again, I don't mean the water itself is somehow magic. The involvement of the Spirit in baptism is indeed critical here, and the Spirit is free to act as He sees fit (e.g., Acts 10). But the sign that's normally instituted is water applied in God's name. (Mt 28:18-20)

 

[Schroeder]

Again you mix up the baptism with the Spirit with the baptism of the Holy Spirit. In the baptism with the Spirit we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:5) , but the baptism of the Spirit we are placed into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit (1Cor 12:13).

You are lumping the two together and they are not the same scripturally.

Sorry I have not been able to devote more time to this subject but I am on my 51 straight night at work. We had to shutdown the refinery and that doesn't give me much time to debate the Word, but we are almost back to normal and I will be back soon.

GLJCA

what is the difference between with and by. cant lumped the two when the two are the same SPIRIT. we are baptized by the Spirit which saves us and this SPirit indwells us or stays with us, as it is Christ, and since Christ is in us we are heirs to God. And all those who are heirs to God are in the Church. and you didnt even answer any of the questions i asked or told me how the scriptures i gave were wrong. but as you are busy at work i'll just wait and see what other things you say. and if you respond back again when it is conveint for you. dont work to hard.

 

[Dispy]

There are at least 12 different baptisms mentioned in the Bible.

You're splitting up things that aren't split up in the Apostles' minds.

the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience 1 Pt 3:20-21​

Are you trying to tell me that the Apostles always understood baptism to mean water? That the baptism of fire (Matt.3:11) was water? that the baptism that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 20:22 to be water?

The baptism that Peter is speaking of in 1Peter 3:20:21 is the death baptism of Christ. That is the baptism that now saves us.

​

Your citation of Thomas Bruscha does not hold water(!) with anyone outside Pauline Dispensationalism. And so his idea of what the words meant 2000 years ago are about as good as ... oh, Ellen White's, or Joseph Smith's.

A quote from the book you're citing should prove that:

... Confusion begins by not paying attention to "Who" is being addressed in a passage of the Bible; and then, not believing that when God addresses "Israel," He means Israel.
There is a portion of the Bible that specifically addresses US - Gentiles and Jews of this age. It is the books of Romans through Philemon. Now let's see how knowing this fact clears up much confusion.

​

It is commonly taught that there is only one gospel in the Bible. (I'm not speaking of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John which are sometimes called the four Gospels.) I'm talking about the proclamation of the gospel in the Bible. Many--in fact most--believe that all the New Testament preachers (John the Baptist, Jesus Christ, the Twelve Apostles, and the Apostle Paul) preached the same gospel. This is totally unscriptural! The Bible speaks of several gospels: "THE GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM," "THE GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD," THE GOSPEL OF PEACE," "THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL," "THE GOSPEL OF THE CIRCUMCISION," "THE GOSPEL OF THE UNCIRCUMCISION," etc. These are not all synonymous terms for the gospel. http://www.gracebibleministries.org/GBMstudies/DictGospel/01bConf.html

​

We're talking about a language people use everyday. This is not some "superspiritualized" language used solely in the NT.

It's really clear that the early readers read the NT plainly. They read water, and they also knew about the figurative senses, and connected those figurative senses together with water baptism. So baptism is One: although threaded-through the water-rite the implications of that water rite mean much more than just a bath (Rom 6:3, Gal 3:27, Col 2:12, 1 Pt 3:20-21, 1 Cor 1:13, 12:13, 10:2, ). And again, I don't mean the water itself is somehow magic. The involvement of the Spirit in baptism is indeed critical here, and the Spirit is free to act as He sees fit (e.g., Acts 10). But the sign that's normally instituted is water applied in God's name. (Mt 28:18-20)

The words written over 2000 years ago are God's inspired words to us and for our instructions in righteousness. Suggest you start reading baptism in the context in which is was meant, and not always water.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[heymikey80]

Are you trying to tell me that the Apostles always understood baptism to mean water? That the baptism of fire (Matt.3:11) was water? that the baptism that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 20:22 to be water?

There are figurative uses of the term, but they still involve figures that associate them with water baptism. That's really clear with Matt 3:11, because it's stated in counterpoint.

There's an obvious parallel to the English "bathe". You can talk about "bathing" with no further connection, water's pretty obvious. But when someone says "bathed in light" a clearly figurative sense is meant. It still has a figurative connection to "bathe", but it's with light.

On Mk 10:38 the reference is to someone covered by an overwhelming series of events. Again, it's figurative of being deluged by some circumstance. The water imagery is still present.

The baptism that Peter is speaking of in 1Peter 3:20:21 is the death baptism of Christ. That is the baptism that now saves us.

The baptism that Peter is speaking of is connected with water -- kinda obvious, since the souls were "saved through water".

The words written over 2000 years ago are God's inspired words to us and for our instructions in righteousness. Suggest you start reading baptism in the context in which is was meant, and not always water.

I'll read it as it's intended instead.

 

[Dispy]

heymickey80:

You may believe what you want about baptism, that is your privelidge.

I received my "baptism of fire" on a hill in South Korea on the last day of August in 1952, when 1,000 Chinese tried to run us off a hill. The only water present was the sweat on my brow. I guess there might have been some that had some wet trowers too. It was that scary.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[heymikey80]

I received my "baptism of fire" on a hill in South Korea on the last day of August in 1952, when 1,000 Chinese tried to run us off a hill. The only water present was the sweat on my brow. I guess there might have been some that had some wet trowers too. It was that scary.

Welp, nobody said the water imagery was supposed to be soothing. Felt overwhelmed? That's what the imagery is supposed to be.

 

[eph3Nine]

Dispy is right...if you want to include water in your baptism, be our guest, however, you are NOT believing that there is but ONE baptism for us today by adhering to that stance. The ONE baptism today has NOTHING whatsoever to do with water, but with identification with Christs death , burial and resurrection and being PLACED INTO, or BAPTIZED into, Christs BODY.

Until you see this FACT, you will remain hopelessly entrenched in a religious practice that has ABSOLUTELY NO SIGNIFICANCE to you as a member of the Body of Christ.

Of course, if you are trusting water to save you, then we have a whole new ball of wax. It doesnt save anyone and is NOT even given as a point of obedience to we who trust Christ for our salvation today. This happens to be a "church tradition"...one of those carry overs that satan reverts unstudied and unknowing folks such as yourself to.

I dont say this to insult but to INFORM you so that you can have a METANOIA MOMENT...ie; a change of mind.

God bless ya real good

 

[2cents]

Until you see this FACT, you will remain hopelessly entrenched in a religious practice that has ABSOLUTELY NO SIGNIFICANCE to you as a member of the Body of Christ.

This happens to be a "church tradition"...one of those carry overs that satan reverts unstudied and unknowing folks such as yourself to.

So if water baptism is a satanic church carry over of no significance, will you and your ilk publicly renounce your water baptisms?

 

[eph3Nine]

So if water baptism is a satanic church carry over of no significance, will you and your ilk publicly renounce your water baptisms?

Excuse me??? LOL

In my church we don't practice water baptism! We are of NO "ilk", but are members of the Body of Christ and have been placed into His Body BY the ONE baptism of Eph 4:5.....no Water anywhere!

Have a nice day!

The water baptism that you see being practiced by "churches" is done in IGNORANCE and misunderstanding of what Gods purpose for water baptism WAS, and to whom it was given. It was never given to we the Body of Christ.