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Not sure i understand all of these replies the question was what do you think about starting a thread on Foxes Book Of Martyrs?
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Thinking about things that are true is good, but noble, just, pure, lovely, good report, and so on rather limits how much time to spend on grim history like Foxes book of Martyrs. What you gave us is good, but what is the noble response? Let us reflect on the history where religion was transcended by spirituality, and the power of the gospel to transform the lives of the people manifest. Like the Swiss which through Calvin's spiritual teachings were able to escape the 30 years war, the 100 years war, WW1 and WWII.
I assure you that Switzerland's relatively safe situation during most of that time period had nothing to do with Calvinism.
Quite true. Calvinism, as I noted earlier, did not ever accomplish what Calvin accomplished, and he clearly failed to transmit his message successfully in his theological writings. Actually, those writings were a bit hypocritical, since Sola Scriptura would result in no more books, the writing of many books only mentioned in the scriptures in the negative. But, the Swiss have honored Calvin as the founder of their prosperity, and the correlation between staying with the traditions he started, and Swiss prosperity, is very close. I hope you are familiar with the story of Haldane, Napoleonic, and Swiss backsliding from Calvin, that led to their present very orthodox constitution.
So, what did Calvin do that worked so well? And how could that message be transmitted and multiplied? What I got from my history mentor was that Calvin believed that the scriptures were indeed inspired by God, and read prophetically, would do what they promised, which is make one wise unto salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. The minute you have "Calvinism" you have wandered away from this basic principle, and started to follow Calvin's prophetic interpretation of scripture instead of following scripture itself, and letting all prophesy, his included, be judged with prophetic judgment. We are to live by every word that proceeds, present tense, from the mouth of God. Old prophesy can and must always be refreshed. We are to be guided daily by such an ongoing debate. Calvin's contribution was to successfully keep his followers from following him in any way but working to be even more prophetic themselves. Thus, the Swiss never built a church like the Germans built the Lutheran Church. Luther, of course, hated that consequence to his ministry. He knew that if his followers built a church and named it after him, they were doomed, and he had failed to teach them aright. Calvin was able to get it across to his followers that their religious activities (again, almost all in direct contradiction to the scriptural wisdom of not thinking beyond widows, orphans, repentance, and bridling of the tongue) was sin covered by grace, and not worthy of war and mayhem, stemming from self-righteousness.
Personally, in my efforts to imitate Calvin's prophetic approach to scripture, I have been told by God Himself to only expect futility from all isms and ists. Semantically, He said, those kinds of appendices to word are a direct proclamation that one has taken something natural or carnal, and made it into an idol. He warned me that He has not stopped condemning people for their careless, idle, words, nor justifying them because of their care in speaking righteously, faithfully, only what they can honestly report they believe they heard Him speaking.
And God has assured me that indeed the peace of Switzerland is His grace gift in response to the holiest effort ever made to respond to the scriptures, initiated by Calvin. Are you hearing Him say something different?
Actually, I can't find anything in Scripture about Switzerland.
As Jesus warned, "You search the scriptures thinking (wrongly) that in them you will find eternal life, but they are they that lead to Me." So, we are to turn to Him, not the Scriptures
In the first Millenium, there were dozens of experiments on Theology. Of whatever you could think about the nature of God and Jesus Christ appeared: One Person, 2 Persons, 3 persons, one Nature, 3 Natures and whatever.
When you reached the 1000 dC, you find one Church, strong and firm in Europe, unknown in other Continents.
Then Reformation came. As a Catholic, I think that it were the Protestant who separated.
I realize here and I have learned here in this Forum that many Protestant think that it was the RCC who separated from The church. This position raises many problems: separation from which Church? Who was the leader of separation? Was it leadership for not following the Reformers? Leadership for not Reforming?
Anyhow, the consequences have been fast.
Christians were expelled from Japan for fighting each other. The denominations exploded to an estimate of 30 thousand and growing at a 200 a month. If the statistics are not these, please furnish others.
The interpretation by conscience and the Sola Scriptura led to a splintering of Tradition or traditions as some like to make the distinction.
The RCC reformed itself several times since then. The Trident Council and the Vatican II drove the RCC worldwide though paths the Spirit. It numbers 1 billion people. The largest Protestant one is the Anglican Communion and as I am told it is not a Church in itself but a communion - 80,000,000.
In the extreme, we could imagine that every Protestant Person could have Its own Position leading to 1 billion positions, the number I guess it is the number of Protestant.
I foresee that in hundreds of years, the splintering of Protestantism will lead to Its extinction, like the Churches of the 1st Millennium.
Was the Reformation an Experiment gone wrong?
That could take 1000s of years me thinksIn the extreme, we could imagine that every Protestant Person could have Its own Position leading to 1 billion positions, the number I guess it is the number of Protestant.
I foresee that in hundreds of years, the splintering of Protestantism will lead to Its extinction, like the Churches of the 1st Millennium.
I would tend to agree with thatEasy G (G²);60382465 said:Part of me thinks that the means it used to go against what it felt was "corrupt"
also opened the door for further corruption..and consequently, more and more various Protestant Reformations developed.
Then again, perhaps it was a Divine mistake where things bad may've been allowed...but the possibilities are what the Lord chose to work through nonetheless just as he did with the camps not joining the Reformation.
I foresee that in hundreds of years, the splintering of Protestantism will lead to Its extinction, like the Churches of the 1st Millennium.
I would tend to agree with that
...
No offense, but i believe that the Scriptures are revelation, and that means that they must be revealing. I believe that they are inspired by God, and that means that they are authoritative.
Easy G (G²);60390562 said:God is still in control of His Church...
So, it is His fault that the seven churches in Asia fell away?
Psalm 133/Psalm 133
A song of ascents. Of David.
1 How good and pleasant it is
when brothers live together in unity!
John 17:23
I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
POST TWO OF TWO
I hope it makes sense Why I believe that the early Christian tradition would have believed that without on-going, authentic repentance, no single simple prayer will guarantee the reward of eternal life in a social heaven of powerful exalted beings who have repented for sin and have learned to live higher moral laws which enable them to live together in unity and joy for eternity.
Clearly
sienvine
Easy G (G²);60422851 said:Apostasy is upon the believer (Jude 1), though it happening can never erase the reality of believers still being present and the Church still existing.
There have always been mindsets advocated from others who note that parts of the church are akin to "Babylon" or saying the churches needed to be altered to "save it" have come up with a myriad of things....and it's often, IMHO, behind what often goes down whenever people are quick to throw out cards toward one another decrying the other as a "herectic" or "false convert" on many things.
To me, it seems reflective of what is often labeled as "factions"...and more specifically, one large "GANG-Turf" war. This is something I had to learn often when studying church history/trying to discover how it could be so messed up in differing camps...and yet, each had something wonderful to add to the saints in some way. If interested, I would highly suggest looking up something known as "Ben Witherington's series Howard Snyder's Review of 'Pagan Christianity' ()---as Brother Witherington did an ongoing critique of a book called "Pagan Christianity: Exploring the Roots of Our Church Practices", by Frank Viola and George Barna...with the book aimed at discussing how the church has been very much messed up. And I think many his points I believe can be applicable to the discussion on the Reformation.
As said there:I tend to hold to the The Renewal Movement View---and that GOD'S STILL WORKING THROUGH HIS CHURCH IN WHATEVER FORM IT'S IN---AND seeing that at this point in life, one must strive to be appreciative/keep the main thing the main thing, which is the GOSPEL OF CHRIST ABOVE ALL ELSE AND ENSURING HOW TO SPREAD THAT.... seeking to KEEP THE MAIN THING THE MAIN THING----WHICH IS CHRIST and the GOSPEL ( Ephesians 4:8 /1 Corinthians 12:10 )Three Approaches to Church History
Traditionally, the churchs development through history has been seen in one of two ways: The traditional orthodox approach or the secret history of the faithful remnant theory.
The Traditional View. The most generally accepted viewthe traditional orthodox interpretationis that God has guided the church through history, protecting it from heresy and apostasy, assistingit to adapt to changing circumstances. The development of clergy, liturgy, church buildings, and all the rest were the ways in which the church successfully adjusted as it grew and got more complex, and the way it extended its influence.
Constantinianismthe development of the church after the conversion of the Emperor Constantineis the key test case. In the traditional orthodox view (celebrated first by Eusebius in his Ecclesiastical History), the success of the church under Constantine was the great triumph of the church. Gods hand was in it all. In this view, it is foolish to expect the church today to look like the New Testament church (which was essentially a network of house churches with highly flexible leadership patterns). The New Testament church was the church in embryo; the little seedling that
has now wonderfully put forth branches into all the world.
The Secret History of the Faithful Remnant. The other view, unsurprisingly, is just the opposite. God has been working down through history through a mostly hidden underground church. The institutional church is corrupt and largely apostate. But God has an unbroken succession of the true church that has appeared from time to time in groups that the official church viewed as heretical or extreme.This true church has surfaced periodically under names like Montanists, Priscillians, Anabaptists, Waldensians, and so forthand in networks of house churches today. This view has been advocated by various peoplenotably the German Pietist Gottfried Arnold (1666-1714), and today people like Gene Edwards. Pagan Christianity seems to assume this theory. In this view, Constantinianism was a great tragedythe fall of the church. The only route to fidelity is a return to the New Testament pattern, some form of restoration to the original model.
The choice here is rather clear-cut. But there is a third way, a mediating position that can be supported biblically, historically,
theologically, and sociologically.
The Renewal Movement View. This view recognizes the truth in both the traditional view and the counter-view. Yes, God has been working through the institutional church down through history, despiteits problems. Yes, the church has often been unfaithful, corrupt,and, in certain times and places, apostate. And yes, God has often worked through marginal groupseven sometimes rather extreme groups, like the Montanists to enliven a faithful remnant. And yes, many of these groups were not really heretical doctrinally, yet were shamefully persecuted and often driven underground. The renewal-movement view holds that, despite the churchs frequent unfaithfulness, God has continued to work through institutional Christianity. It also observes that underground remnant churches can themselves become corrupt, or dysfunctional (Ive known some), or moribund, needing renewal.
Those of us in the Wesleyan tradition note John Wesleys insights here. Wesley was outspoken in his denunciation of the failures of the Anglican Church in his day. Yet he did not abandon it. His views on the church, drawn largely from the New Testament, church history, and contemporary groups such as the Moravians, had much in common with the secret history view. But Wesley felt it was possible (and substantially proved it) to create a faithful remnant movement within the larger institutional church. This was British Methodism during Wesleys lifetime. In this view, God has worked throughout history to bring new life to the church through a series of movements. This dynamic is foreshadowed already in the Bible, especially in Israels history. It can be documented over the centuries of the church. God has never given up on the churcheven the institutional church. Neither should we.
Yet in particular times and places the church may become so unfaithful that it falls under Gods judgment and may even disappear entirely.
No offense taken, and I thank you for caring. I agree with the above, as far as it goes, but as it stands, I believe it is a half-truth. But, as you, I express this belief hoping that it will not cause offense, only that it will cause reflection, deepen understanding, and bring us closer to our common, agreed upon goal, namely the destruction of gates of Hell at the hand of the church.
So, what do I see as the neglected half of the truth?
The scriptures speak of themselves. Thus, all the revelation that they bring to the table must be limited by what they reveal of themselves. Authority is all from God, and the scriptures have a measure of authority. But authority is always focused, or limited in it's domain. Thus, the scriptures write of "all authority" recognizing that there are parts that apply here, and parts that apply there. But, all is given to Yeshua.
In their addressing what is written in scripture, these writings authoritatively limit their use as follows.
First, they are directives for getting into the presence of God, hearing His voice, and becoming prophetic. Any scripture that supplies wisdom to accomplish this goal may be taken as directly authoritative. Just agree and obey with one's best understanding of what is written.
Second, they assert that we are not to go beyond what is written, when we consider the works of the church fathers in founding and administrating in the church. As there were specific instructions for building the temple, so there are such for building the church, and we are not even to think beyond these instructions.
Third, there are commandments from God throughout scripture, but the role of hearing God's voice and walking in God's ways in faith (comes from hearing) in keeping these commandments is stressed as a sine qua non. We are directed by scripture to NOT obey written commandments. We are directed instead to obey His voice, as we meditate day and night on them. (See Deut 28:1, Psalm 1) The difference is huge. By responding in this scriptural wisdom to these commandments, we "live by every word that proceeds (present tense) from the mouth of God," basically eating and living from the tree of life. When we take these commandments directly, as literal immediate commands, this past revelation (all the words of scripture did indeed once proceed from the mouth of God) becomes the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and we are destroyed by what we call legalism.
Now, we are looking here, I believe, at the second boundary scriptures gives us to scripture, namely not thinking beyond what is written in regard to church construction and doctrine. What is written is that we are to seek spiritual gifts, especially that we might prophesy, that all can prophesy, that all prophesy in part, that all prophecy is to be judged by other prophecy. This means going to God, and asking questions, hearing Him speak answers, usually pertaining to wisdom or effective practice, which we put out there for confirmation. (All truth is confirmed by two or three witnesses.) In this case, my prophetic experience asking about where and when the church has been most effective destroying gates of Hell points to Switzerland as the best example we have of a past success. God Himself told me that the gates of Hell have been more limited there, post Calvin, than anywhere or any time else. While Switzerland herself is not mentioned in scripture, learning from the historically reported experiences of those called by God is written.
At the time of the reformation, he Catholic church had grossly gone beyond what is written for church doctrine, but most protestant churches did likewise. The latter are especially at fault for the way they ignore the "I am of Paul, I am of Cephas, etc" rebuke, and freely name themselves. The Catholics are less blatent, but they are also guilty, claiming Peter (Cephas) explicitly as their founder. So, they both failed, as scripture warned would happen if they broke this rule.
God tells me that he hates these names. But, that the buildings, not written, that people build and call churches are even more infuriating. Ask Him yourself, if you dare.
Your reply is well written, but I believe scripture is meant for our instruction, meaning all of mankind. When everyone thinks he's carrying on a conversation with God, the result is anything and everything that the mind of man can dream up.
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