Was the Last Supper a Seder?

[Lulav]

It says "About 50 Essene kohanim may have lived in the southwestern quarter of Jerusalem between 30 BC and 70 AD." Where is the evidence for this?

Josephus says there were six thousand Pharisees and four thousand Essenes in Judaea. Pharisees were less radical than the Essenes and were ready to compromise with the Sadducees and, to some extent, co-operate with the Romans. The contemporaneous Jewish philosopher and exegete Philo of Alexandria gives the same number of Essenes. Josephus and Philo report that the Essenes live “together in large communities in several cities of Judaea and in many villages”.

DDS
The Damascus Document however refers to marriage and children—showing that Essenes in general were not celibate monks—and to other affiliated communities in Palestine, showing that the Qumran Community was not the only Essene settlement.
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Yes, they may have I don't have a direct quote but it seems funny to have a gate leading into the walled part of Jerusalem named the Essene Gate. This gate comes in from the south west and leads into the Essene Quarter, this is where the traditional site for the upper room stands.

Why would you have an Essene Gate and Essene Quarter if no Essene's lived in Jerusalem?

 

[Lulav]

It says "About 50 Essene kohanim may have lived in the southwestern quarter of Jerusalem between 30 BC and 70 AD." Where is the evidence for this?

As the article said:

This conclusion is supported by the discovery of another previously unknown landmark mentioned in Josephus’s description of the First Wall—the place of the Bethso. According to Josephus, the Bethso lay between Hippicus Tower, near the modern Jaffa Gate, and the Gate of the Essenes.

Since the 19th century, most scholars have agreed that the term “Bethso” derives from the Hebrew beth-soa, or latrines. According to the longest Dead Sea Scroll, the Temple Scroll, the Essenes did build such a structure-outside their city, to the northwest-precisely where Josephus locates the Bethso.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Didn't say he did. The lambs were killed at twilight, approx 6 hours before midnight.

And?

 

[Lulav]

Why could not the whole have been 'shared' between Essene and Temple Judaism calendars? Must he have followed only one OR the other for the whole sequence of events?

I think the problem comes from the POV of who is writing and according to whose calendar.

I wouldn't hesitate to bet that the Calendar Yeshua was following was the right one. Whomever sited the new moon in the Essene Quarter might have been a day earlier than those of the Temple.

I don't think you can have everything falling on the same day year after year, that would go against the time reckoning in Torah.

The Essenes could have been on the correct calendar but they weren't considered 'All Israel' which the Torah says is to kill the passover.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Josephus says there were six thousand Pharisees and four thousand Essenes in Judaea. Pharisees were less radical than the Essenes and were ready to compromise with the Sadducees and, to some extent, co-operate with the Romans. The contemporaneous Jewish philosopher and exegete Philo of Alexandria gives the same number of Essenes. Josephus and Philo report that the Essenes live “together in large communities in several cities of Judaea and in many villages”.

DDS
The Damascus Document however refers to marriage and children—showing that Essenes in general were not celibate monks—and to other affiliated communities in Palestine, showing that the Qumran Community was not the only Essene settlement.
-------------------------------------------

Yes, they may have I don't have a direct quote but it seems funny to have a gate leading into the walled part of Jerusalem named the Essene Gate. This gate comes in from the south west and leads into the Essene Quarter, this is where the traditional site for the upper room stands.

Why would you have an Essene Gate and Essene Quarter if no Essene's lived in Jerusalem?

I understand what you are thinking, but again, I see no evidence of it. The Essene gate was built long before the birth of Yeshua. By the time Yeshua was born, the sect had left Yerushalayim and were in the desert. They shunned cities. There may have been some still living in part of Judea. I don't know.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

As the article said:

This conclusion is supported by the discovery of another previously unknown landmark mentioned in Josephus’s description of the First Wall—the place of the Bethso. According to Josephus, the Bethso lay between Hippicus Tower, near the modern Jaffa Gate, and the Gate of the Essenes.

Since the 19th century, most scholars have agreed that the term “Bethso” derives from the Hebrew beth-soa, or latrines. According to the longest Dead Sea Scroll, the Temple Scroll, the Essenes did build such a structure-outside their city, to the northwest-precisely where Josephus locates the Bethso.

Yes because they would not have sex nor defecate within the walls of Yerushalayim. "Let a man not have sexual relations with a woman in the city of the sanctuary so as to render the city of the sanctuary impure by their defilement." (ZADOKITE FRAGMENTS 12-1–2). But again, that was before Yeshua was born.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Didn't say he did. The lambs were killed at twilight, approx 6 hours before midnight.

"twilight" is a very short time to kill 1000s of lambs, yes? Yeshua died in the afternoon at the 9th hour when the lambs were being killed...

 

[Heber Book List]

I understand what you are thinking, but again, I see no evidence of it. The Essene gate was built long before the birth of Yeshua. By the time Yeshua was born, the sect had left Yerushalayim and were in the desert. There may have been some still living in part of Judea. I don't know.

What documentary evidence do you have to refute the claims that the Essenes lived in cities in Yeshua's time? You continue to disagree, but I do not think you have shown any tangible proof of this, as yet.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

What documentary evidence do you have to refute the claims that the Essenes lived in cities in Yeshua's time? You continue to disagree, but I do not think you have shown any tangible proof of this, as yet.

I am not refuting that "some" Essenes lived in small towns in Judea during Yeshua's time. Most shunned larger cities like Yerushalayim. Philo commented on this (Hyp. 11.1).

 

[Heber Book List]

I am not refuting that "some" Essenes lived in small towns in Judea during Yeshua's time. Most shunned larger cities like Yerushalayim. Philo commented on this...

Philo said they lived in cities as well as outside of them: Hypothetica 11.1

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Philo said they lived in cities as well as outside of them: Hypothetica 11.1

Philo speaks of "more than 4,000" Essaioi living in "Palestinian Syria" (Quod Omn. Prob. XII.75), more precisely, "in many cities of Judaea and in many villages and grouped in great societies of many members" (Hyp. 11.1). Yerushalayim was a large city, which they shunned.

Disgusted with the compromising Pharisees and Sadducees in Jerusalem, “The Teacher of Righteousness,” referred to in the Qumran scrolls, left Jerusalem and joined the Essenes in the wilderness where he exerted his influence, especially with his Sadducee doctrines as a former High Priest (150 BC). They lived here in strict observance of the Old Testament Law, celibate and keeping strict dietary laws, until 68 A.D., when the Romans squelched the Jewish Revolt.

 

[Heber Book List]

Philo speaks of "more than 4,000" Essaioi living in "Palestinian Syria" (Quod Omn. Prob. XII.75), more precisely, "in many cities of Judaea and in many villages and grouped in great societies of many members" (Hyp. 11.1). Yerushalayim was a large city, which they shunned.

Disgusted with the compromising Pharisees and Sadducees in Jerusalem, “The Teacher of Righteousness,” referred to in the Qumran scrolls, left Jerusalem and joined the Essenes in the wilderness where he exerted his influence, especially with his Sadducee doctrines as a former High Priest (150 BC). They lived here in strict observance of the Old Testament Law, celibate and keeping strict dietary laws, until 68 A.D., when the Romans squelched the Jewish Revolt.

Your Philo says different to mine

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Your Philo says different to mine

What does yours say??

 

[Heber Book List]

What does yours say??

"...and they dwell in many cities in Judaea, and in many villages, and in great and populous communities".

 

[AbbaLove]

The lambs were killed at twilight, approx 6 hours before midnight.

IMO ... CORRECT​

Twilight being interpreted as "between the two evenings" (Ben Ha Arbayim) beginning at sunset/sundown at the beginning of Aviv/Nisan 14 ... as in Exodus 12:6, Numbers 9:5, Leviticus 23:5. However, by the time of Yeshua the Sanhedrin had long ago redefined "between the two evenings" (Ben Ha Arbayim) to be approx 6 hours at the end of Aviv/Nisan 14 ... from the declining afternoon sun beginning at noon until just before sunset.

Yeshua and His Disciples observed their "last supper" (pre-seder) in observance of the original timeline NOT the timeline the Sanhedrin observed.

This is why at times there seems to be a contradiction between the Gospel accounts. Some passages are referring to the original timeline of the Torah and at other times how Passover was being observed by the majority of Jews during the time of Yeshua. Yeshua (and possibly the Essenes) observed Passover as is recorded in the Torah. With the killing of the sacrifice at the beginning of the 14th and Unleavened Bread beginning on the 15th of Aviv/Nisan (Leviticus 23:6).

Yeshua was careful not to be confrontational so for instance when one account says, "Now cometh the day of Passover and Unleavened Bread" is he referring to the timeline in the Torah or the timeline of the Sanhedrin. Mark (Mark 14:1) writes "After two days was the feast of the Passover and Unleavened Bread" and Luke writes (Luke 22:1-2) "Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread drew near, which is called the Passover" suggests that the Sanhedrin, for whatever reason(s), had taken it upon themselves to begin both on Aviv/Nisan 14.

The Sanhedrin were known for establishing their own law(tradition) as if it was G-ds law. So, instead of assuming the writers of the Gospel accounts were in error it's just as likely, if not more likely, that the Pharisees were in error. That said, Messianic Judaism might disagree.

"twilight" is a very short time to kill 1000s of lambs, yes? Yeshua died in the afternoon at the 9th hour when the lambs were being killed...

However, those scriptures in the Torah about the slaying of the lambs is often referred to as Twilight = "between the evenings" (Ben Ha Arbayim) and not the timeline the Sanhedrin observed during the time of Yeshua. In effect the Sanhedrin turned the meaning of "between the evenings" into approx 6 hours lasting from noon to just before sunset of Aviv/Nisan 14.

Abraham Ibn Ezra understood this to be the time from sunset until no more daylight was reflected/seen in the sky (the beginning of night). He figured this timeline to be one and one-half hours (90 minutes).

Rashi on the other hand went along with the prevailing sentiment of Rabbinic Judaism effectively giving a new meaning to "Ben Ha Arbayim" (between the evenings) lasting approximately six hours at the end of Aviv/Nisan 14, instead of ninety minutes at the beginning of Aviv/Nisan 14.

 

[hedrick]

Deleted. Wrong forum

 

[AbbaLove]

There's a lot of speculation here, given that Matthew, Mark and Luke explicitly identify it as a Passover celebration. If it wasn't the time you'd normally eat the Passover, that wouldn't bother me. Jesus could have known he was about to be killed, and celebrated it early. But I'd be more inclined to say it was the normal time and the speculations that it's not are wrong.

Welcome to the Messianic Judaism forum ​

If you would like to learn more about the Jewish Feasts of Passover/Unleavened Bread you will find the following book and Youtube interview most insightful.

 

[pat34lee]

Did the Nazirite vow involve a time limit?

Normally, yes. Except in the case of Samson
who was a Nazarite for life.

 

[AbbaLove]

I think the problem comes from the POV of who is writing and according to whose calendar.

Agree! ​

Yeshua and His Disciples were observing the correct Torah timeline interpretation of "Ben Ha Arbayim" (between the evenings") as found in Exodus 12:6, Numbers 9:1, and Leviticus 23;5-6. Leviticus clearly states that the feast of unleavened bread begins on Aviv/Nisan 15 after Passover with the slaying of the lambs at the beginning of Aviv/Nisan 14. So the sop that Yeshua gave to Judas Iscariot was bread not matzah (John 13:26).

 

[AbbaLove]

The thing that argues that theory (usually from teetotalers) is that the harvest of grapes was July/August in ancient Israel. By the time Spring comes, the pressed grape juice has been naturally fermenting for six to seven months.

If Yeshua had taken a vow not to drink "the fruit of the vine" why would he offer wine
to His Disciples? Maybe, some think Yeshua first diluted it at least 50/50 with water

Also it is not well known but grapes can also start natural fermentation while still on the vine.

He drank with them at the Seder.

Agree! ​

(assuming you mean "the fruit of the vine" and not tea)​