Was the Great Pyramid Built Before Noah's Flood?

DialecticSkeptic · Aug 10, 2022

Andrewn said:
Was he supposed to lead other human beings?

Yes, I believe he was. If the last Adam was a covenant servant as prophet, priest, and king, then maybe the first Adam was, too (since he was a type of Christ). Regarding the office of prophet, God spoke unto Adam alone, a word which he would then have to communicate to his wife and family and beyond (cf. Deut 6:6-7). Communicating God's word to others is a prophetic responsibility for those created in the image of God. However, beyond this, there is also evidence in the text of Adam's responsibility as priest and king (esp. Gen 2:15) which was unique to him as a type of Christ—and was lost in the fall, I believe.

For a deep dive into this subject, see Joel R. Beeke and Paul M. Smalley, eds., Reformed Systematic Theology: Volume 2 - Man and Christ (Wheaton, IL: Crossway, 2020). See the section "God's Covenant with Adam, Part 3."

Bob Crowley · Aug 12, 2022

I'm not very interested in the topic, but if the pyramids were built before the flood, there should be evidence of flood damage, not only externally but also internally eg. dried mud on floors and walls, sarcophaguses covered with mud, items in poor repair, water damage from prolonged immersion etc.

If there's no evidence of flood damage, then assuming the flood was world wide and not just Mesopotamian, then they must have been built after the Biblical flood.

Job 33:6 · Aug 12, 2022

Bob Crowley said:
I'm not very interested in the topic, but if the pyramids were built before the flood, there should be evidence of flood damage, not only externally but also internally eg. dried mud on floors and walls, sarcophaguses covered with mud, items in poor repair, water damage from prolonged immersion etc.

If there's no evidence of flood damage, then assuming the flood was world wide and not just Mesopotamian, then they must have been built after the Biblical flood.

Well, and if the flood occurred after the pyramids we're built, we might expect all Egyptians to have died as well, in the flood, but of course Egyptians are still here and alive today, or their children in this case.

Laconia79 · Aug 18, 2022

The flood happened if you follow the bible about 4300 years ago give or take a 100 years, the great pyramid of Giza was about 5000 years ago. When you do the math you realize the biblical flood is a myth. Now was there a flood that is the basis of the story sure...were the black see is right now there was a settlement. 10000 years ago the end of the last ice age, Ice melts the sea floods the area, to the ancient people it would have been the end of the world. In probability all of the flood stories start from that. Also human civilization started in that part of the world.

DialecticSkeptic · Aug 28, 2022

Isaiah 41:10 said:
Well, and if the flood occurred after the pyramids we're built, we might expect all Egyptians to have died as well, in the flood, but of course Egyptians are still here and alive today, or their children in this case.

Job 33:6 · Aug 28, 2022

I guess God's judgement just wasn't significant enough for their historical accounts...

Laconia79 · Aug 28, 2022

Isaiah 41:10 said:
I guess God's judgement just wasn't significant enough for their historical accounts...

There is no historical evidence. A flood of that magnitude would leave signs. The Pyramids would have been wiped out. A world flood would have ripped the earth apart and destroyed any human evidence of existence. I and most reasonably intelligent people believe the bible is a book that is part myth, historical fact, and guide on to have a relationship with god. Was there a flood that is the basis for the great flood yes. Look at the Black Sea...it used to be a human settlement and then as the ice from the ice age melted Water came rushing in. Considering the human Civilizations started in the part of the world its most likely the basis of the flood story. And for people of the time it would have been the wrath of god. But as for any world wide flood in the last 10000 there is none...that is not a theory that is proven fact. Carbon dating is almost on spot for the first 50k years, the old settlements go back farther than that....the great flood would have wiped them out. Honestly there is no actual proof for the bible...much of it has been debunked. Geology, Biology, Astronomy, archeology have come far enough to debunk much of religion. It is not a matter of a fact, it is a matter of faith. I believe cause I have seen stuff that science can not explain. I believe because I want to see the people I love again.

DialecticSkeptic · Aug 29, 2022

HARK! said:
You haven't provided any evidence of how long Adam lived in the garden.

Update: In the first 130 years Adam and Eve were exiled from the garden, had Cain and Abel, Cain slew Abel and was banished by God, and sometime later they had Seth (Genesis 5:1-3).

mindlight · Oct 8, 2022

Dale said:
It is generally agreed that Abraham lived around 2,000 BC (or about 4,000 years ago). Archaeologists and historians tell us that the Great Pyramid of Egypt was built around 2,500 BC (or 4,500 years ago). So the Great Pyramid was about five hundred years old when Abraham came out of the city of Ur.

Creationists, or at least those who claim that the world is only six thousand years old, say that there are only 400 years between Noah's Flood and Abraham -- or even less, as we shall see. This is unworkable.

For instance, one website gives the following dates.*

Creation 4004 BC

Flood 2348 BC

Tower of Babel 2234 BC Only 114 years after the Flood????

Abraham 1996 BC Only 352 years after the Flood????

As you can see, this creationist date of 1996 BC for Abraham is very close to the generally accepted figure of around 2000 BC. Yet they claim that the Tower of Babel, an immense project requiring tens of thousands of workers, happened only a trifle over a hundred years after the Flood. These workers would have to be supported by millions of farmers or herders. Keep in mind that after the Flood, Genesis says there were only eight people in the world.

There is solid evidence that the Great Pyramid and others nearby were built around 2500 BC, about 500 years before Abraham. Creationist reckoning seems to put the Great Pyramid before the Flood.

*www.biblehistory.com/timeline

The dating of the Great Pyramid relies heavily on radiocarbon dating which is not 100% reliable. Also as any Egyptologist worth his salt will tell you Egyptian history was rewritten by just about every Pharoah around themselves including dating schemes and finding the truth in all their convenient lies is a big challenge.

The Barbarian · Oct 8, 2022

mindlight said:
The dating of the Great Pyramid relies heavily on radiocarbon dating which is not 100% reliable.

Nothing humans do is 100% reliable. However, your notion that humans can't know anything because we can never be 100% sure, is complete hooey. The age was first determined by archaeological and textual evidence, and only secondarily confirmed by radiocarbon data.

mindlight · Oct 8, 2022

The Barbarian said:
Nothing humans do is 100% reliable. However, your notion that humans can't know anything because we can never be 100% sure, is complete hooey. The age was first determined by archaeological and textual evidence, and only secondarily confirmed by radiocarbon data.

Yes but that archaeological and textual evidence is controversial as are many of the conclusions of Egyptology because of the continual historical revisionism that took place in Egyptian history. Herodotus and later Greek commentators all gave a much later date.

The Barbarian · Oct 8, 2022

mindlight said:
Yes but that archaeological and textual evidence is controversial as are many of the conclusions of Egyptology because of the continual historical revisionism that took place in Egyptian history. Herodotus and later Greek commentators all gave a much later date.

Because Herodutus and later Greek commentators had better instruments and more texts than modern scholars? Do you realize that it's roughly the same amount of time between Herodotus and the present as it was from the time the pyramids were built to Herodotus?

mindlight · Oct 8, 2022

The Barbarian said:
Because Herodutus and later Greek commentators had better instruments and more texts than modern scholars? Do you realize that it's roughly the same amount of time between Herodotus and the present as it was from the time the pyramids were built to Herodotus?

Both eras are guessing on the basis of hearsay.

The Barbarian · Oct 8, 2022

mindlight said:
Both eras are guessing on the basis of hearsay.

It seems rather odd to consider things like paleomagnetic data and radioisotope testing as "hearsay."

Dale · Oct 8, 2022

mindlight said:
The dating of the Great Pyramid relies heavily on radiocarbon dating which is not 100% reliable. Also as any Egyptologist worth his salt will tell you Egyptian history was rewritten by just about every Pharoah around themselves including dating schemes and finding the truth in all their convenient lies is a big challenge.

Mindlight, it is good to talk to you again.

I get the impression that you didn’t read post #2. It explains how astronomers have confirmed what archaeologists know about when the three pyramids at Giza were built. Later pharaohs may have wanted to change history but they couldn’t move the stars!

mindlight · Oct 8, 2022

Dale said:
Mindlight, it is good to talk to you again.

I get the impression that you didn’t read post #2. It explains how astronomers have confirmed what archaeologists know about when the three pyramids at Giza were built. Later pharaohs may have wanted to change history but they couldn’t move the stars!

There is nothing definite about the usage of those 2 stars as the method. It is perfectly possible they used the sun at solstice method and were slightly off each time. People overestimate Egyptian astrologers/ wise men throughout history as the Bible records

John Caldwell · Oct 8, 2022

Dale said:
It is generally agreed that Abraham lived around 2,000 BC (or about 4,000 years ago). Archaeologists and historians tell us that the Great Pyramid of Egypt was built around 2,500 BC (or 4,500 years ago). So the Great Pyramid was about five hundred years old when Abraham came out of the city of Ur.

Creationists, or at least those who claim that the world is only six thousand years old, say that there are only 400 years between Noah's Flood and Abraham -- or even less, as we shall see. This is unworkable.

For instance, one website gives the following dates.*

Creation 4004 BC

Flood 2348 BC

Tower of Babel 2234 BC Only 114 years after the Flood????

Abraham 1996 BC Only 352 years after the Flood????

As you can see, this creationist date of 1996 BC for Abraham is very close to the generally accepted figure of around 2000 BC. Yet they claim that the Tower of Babel, an immense project requiring tens of thousands of workers, happened only a trifle over a hundred years after the Flood. These workers would have to be supported by millions of farmers or herders. Keep in mind that after the Flood, Genesis says there were only eight people in the world.

There is solid evidence that the Great Pyramid and others nearby were built around 2500 BC, about 500 years before Abraham. Creationist reckoning seems to put the Great Pyramid before the Flood.

*www.biblehistory.com/timeline

Another interesting tidbit is some ancient Hebrew literature identifies Melchizedek as Shem (Noah's son) with "Melchizedek" being a title.

Dale · Oct 8, 2022

John Caldwell said:
Another interesting tidbit is some ancient Hebrew literature identifies Melchizedek as Shem (Noah's son) with "Melchizedek" being a title.

We can’t add every Hebrew folktale to the Bible. In Hebrews we find:

This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most
High. He met Abraham returning from the defeat of the kings
and blessed him,
and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, his name
means “king of righteousness”; then also, “king of Salem”
means “king of peace”.
Without father or mother, without genealogy, without
beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he
remains a priest for ever.
Hebrews 7:1-3 NIV

Since Hebrews says that Melchizedek has no genealogy, any attempt to give him one is contradicting the Bible.

John Caldwell · Oct 8, 2022

Dale said:
We can’t add every Hebrew folktale to the Bible. In Hebrews we find:

This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most
High. He met Abraham returning from the defeat of the kings
and blessed him,
and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, his name
means “king of righteousness”; then also, “king of Salem”
means “king of peace”.
Without father or mother, without genealogy, without
beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he
remains a priest for ever.
Hebrews 7:1-3 NIV

Since Hebrews says that Melchizedek has no genealogy, any attempt to give him one is contradicting the Bible.

While I do not believe the Hebrew account correct, it does not discount Scripture either. There was no genealogy in Scripture. This does not mean the contemporaries of Melchizedek were unaware of his genealogy.

mindlight · Oct 9, 2022

The Barbarian said:
It seems rather odd to consider things like paleomagnetic data and radioisotope testing as "hearsay."

I was talking about the historical evidence.

Paleomagnetic data analysis lacks precision and the samples examined are usually all over the place on the scatter graphs I have seen. It is hard to see how this supports your case. Also, there is some skepticism in the scientific community about the overall reliability of the method.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...eliable_A_critical_analysis_of_paleomagnetism

Radioisotope testing assumes that no daughter element was present in the original sample, and may be subject to the distortions of inputs and outputs over years of weathering, sand storms etc, and there are some glaring examples of the unreliability of the method. The results usually come in the form of scattered samples sitting at different places on the graph from which a broad average or trend is discerned. That is not certainty.

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