Was the apostle Paul a Calvinist?

[shturt678s]

Martin Luther wrote more in favor
of predestination than John Calvin !
Of course, there are a lot of "Lutheran"
denominations today, and many have no
affinity with Luther -and some can barely
be described as "Christian".

You may want to check-out the LCMS web
site at:

Home - The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod

for ~authentic~ Lutheranism.

Not that authentic.

Luther's "Large Catechism" can be found
at:

The Book of Concord

Secondary to Scriptures of course.

Old non-modern ELCA, Jack

 

[Jack Terrence]

I can't see where FG2 answered my post #355

Originally Posted by FreeGrace2 Paul quotes DIRECTLY Gen 15:6, nothing in ch 17.


FG2,

You speak a blatant falehood here. In Romans 4:17 Paul quoted Genesis 17:5,

"I have made you a father of many nations."

God spoke these specific words to Abraham when he was about a hundred years old. This was when Abraham laughed at God.

Then Paul spoke specifically of Abraham's believing that God would give him a seed from his and Sarah's 'dead' bodies. It was faith in this specific promise that Paul said was "accounted unto him for righteousness."

1. Abraham initially laughed at God, but God brought him to faith.

2. Genesis 15:6 tells us only that Abraham believed. It does NOT tell us the details of how and when he believed.

See also post #55 on a thread in the Dispensationalism forum:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7782689-6/#post65042380

 

[shturt678s]

Actually…no. A real gift is a real gift, whether or not one accepts it. If a man offers an engagement ring to his girlfriend, and she says no, it's still a ring. It's just that she didn't receive the ring.

There is no such thing as a potential gift, unless someone promises a certain gift, but doesn't actually have the gift in his possession, and won't get the gift until certain conditions are met. Now, THAT is a potential gift.

But not so with Christ. His death purchased the gift for everyone. That is no potential. Anyone who claims it is, simply doesn't understand what words mean.


What verse supports your claim about "first gifts"? I would be interested in reading them.


I consider the real gift of eternal life to be equivalent to "salvation". And as just explained, the gift is real because Christ paid for it with His life.

What is potential is whether man will believe the promise of the gift. That's why we find the subjunctive mood throughout the NT. Man MAY or MAY NOT believe the gospel. That is potential.

I think both Calvs and Arms are confused on the matter of what is potential or not.

The gift of "grace" is God's agape as is extended to sinners in their guilt and unworthiness, and pardons for those that enter upon God's grace His way, ie, grace deals with with cause of course - guilt!

Old Jack

 

[Jack Terrence]

Actually…no. A real gift is a real gift, whether or not one accepts it. If a man offers an engagement ring to his girlfriend, and she says no, it's still a ring. It's just that she didn't receive the ring.

You commit the Fallacy of Generalization. You assume that all gifts are received by an act of the will. But not all gifts may are received by an act of the will. Faith is such a gift. It is not received by an act of the will. It is like the gift of life. When one receives the gift of life he breathes. When one receives the gift of faith he believes.

See my post #486 earlier today.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I can't see where FG2 answered my post #355

FG2,

You speak a blatant falehood here. In Romans 4:17 Paul quoted Genesis 17:5,

"I have made you a father of many nations."

God spoke these specific words to Abraham when he was about a hundred years old. This was when Abraham laughed at God.

Then Paul spoke specifically of Abraham's believing that God would give him a seed from his and Sarah's 'dead' bodies. It was faith in this specific promise that Paul said was "accounted unto him for righteousness."

1. Abraham initially laughed at God, but God brought him to faith.

2. Genesis 15:6 tells us only that Abraham believed. It does NOT tell us the details of how and when he believed.

I did answer that. Maybe it wasn't understood?

See also post #55 on a thread in the Dispensationalism forum:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7782689-6/#post65042380

I'm not following that thread, so if there's a question from there that you'd like an answer to, please give it.

 

[OzSpen]

From the answers and responses I've been getting from them. Seems all the Calvinists agree with the Arminians that apostates don't go to heaven. That if one's faith fails, they don't "remain saved".

But Rom 8:38 guarantees that nothing in the future shall separate us from the love of Christ.

Do you really think that the believer who apostatizes and ends up in hell (as RT and Arminians claim) hasn't been separated from the love of Christ???>

How can Christ's love continue if an apostate ends up in hell.

While Calvinists may claim to accept Rom 8:38 completely, and "every word of this passage", it is clear that you don't really.

In the first sentence of this quote from you, you seem to be confusing two theological views: (1) apostasy, and (2) faith that fails.

If there cannot be any apostasy, then Rom 8:38-39 conflicts with Heb 6:4-6 where the latter teaches that a person who commits apostasy cannot be restored again to repentance.

What's your definition of 'apostasy'? And what are examples (and definition) of 'faith that fails'?

Oz

 

[shturt678s]

In the first sentence of this quote from you, you seem to be confusing two theological views: (1) apostasy, and (2) faith that fails.

If there cannot be any apostasy, then Rom 8:38-39 conflicts with Heb 6:4-6 where the latter teaches that a person who commits apostasy cannot be restored again to repentance.

What's your definition of 'apostasy'? And what are examples (and definition) of 'faith that fails'?

Oz

Rom.8:38, 39: Just another head's up, ie, when the question of apostasy is introduced, it's not solved by saying tha the elect will infallibly be saved. V.39, nothing "shall separate us," etc. In both lists no item such as our own unbelief, obduracy, or apostasy appears, ie, "apostasy" in the sense of IIThess.2:3, ie, has to occur in the church with true believers or it's not an apostasy.

Old Jack and his ideas

Hi brother Oz

 

[FreeGrace2]

Rom.8:38, 39: Just another head's up, ie, when the question of apostasy is introduced, it's not solved by saying tha the elect will infallibly be saved. V.39, nothing "shall separate us," etc. In both lists no item such as our own unbelief, obduracy, or apostasy appears

Not necessary. The fact that "neither things to come" shall separate the love of Christ for us includes whatever happens in the future. C Templeton for example.

 

[Jack Terrence]

I did answer that. Maybe it wasn't understood?

You answered a prior post in which I pointed out that Paul alluded to Genesis 17. That was post #350.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7802929-35/#post65019335

Before you answered post #350 I posted more evidence which shows that Paul directly quoted from Genesis 17. He quoted the statement, "I have made you a father of many nations" (Genesis 17:5). That was post #355.

Paul directly quoted Genesis 17:5, then made reference to the "deadness" of Abraham and Sarah's bodies (Gen. 17:15-22). Paul said that Abraham was strengthened (passive) to faith (dative), and believed that God was able to perform. Then Paul quoted Genesis 15:6 which says, "And it was accounted unto him for righteousness."

Paul quoted Genesis 15:6 in connection with the events of chapter 17.

This shows the actual time when Abraham was justified. Abraham was NOT justified when the promise was initially given in Genesis 15, but when God came to him AGAIN when he was almost a hundred years old.

Therefore, Genesis 15:6 tells us only that Abraham believed. It does NOT tell us the details of how and when he believed. There was passage of time from the initial promise to when Abraham believed it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Paul quoted Genesis 15:6 in connection with the events of chapter 17.[/B]

This shows the actual time when Abraham was justified. Abraham was NOT justified when the promise was initially given in Genesis 15, but when God came to him AGAIN when he was almost a hundred years old.

Therefore, Genesis 15:6 tells us only that Abraham believed. It does NOT tell us the details of how and when he believed. There was passage of time between the initial promise to when Abraham believed it.

Gen 15:1-6 are clear enough, as to sequence of events. He clearly believed WHEN God promised him an heir from his own loins. In ch 15. His faith was reiterated in ch 17.

I believe you fail to understand that. We will agree to disagree. And let's move on, ok?

 

[tulipbee]

"Blessed are those You

choose and bring near

to live in your courts !"

(Psalm 65:4a NIV)

The Hebrew here is bachar (select) and qarab (approach).

The Lord selects us for salvation. And then He comes to us.

We don't choose God ...He chooses us !

"There is none who seeks

for God" (Romans 3:11b

NASB)

Prescient Election has the Most High merely ratifying our self-election.

The Supreme Being becomes just a ticket-taker stationed at the gates of Heaven !

The whole concept of Divine Election is nonsensical and extraneous if we -in effect- elect ourselves. Scripture is very clear:

"You did not choose Me, but

I chose you" (John 15:16

NASB, NIV, NKJ, NRSV, ESV).

"I revealed Myself to those who did

not ask for Me; I was found by those

who did not seek for Me" (Isaiah 65:1

NIV).

Nobody -on their own- responds to the Gospel of Grace !

"There is no one who

understands, no one

who seeks God"

(Matthew 3:11 NIV)

God is the seeker ...NOT us. We are incapable of even understanding the Gospel.

"No one can come to Me, unless it

has been granted him from the Father"

(John 6:65 NASB).

"I chose you out of the

world" (John 15:19 NASB,

NKJ, ESV)

God chooses us, we don't choose God !

"I pray for them. I am not praying for

the world, but for those You have given

Me" (John 17:9 NIV).

"He chose us in Him before

the foundation of the world"

(Ephesians 1:4 NASB)

Not: 'He foresaw us choosing Him in eternity past' ...but "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world".

God chooses.


Don't enter spooky churches.

​

 

[Jack Terrence]

Gen 15:1-6 are clear enough, as to sequence of events. He clearly believed WHEN God promised him an heir from his own loins. In ch 15. His faith was reiterated in ch 17.

I believe you fail to understand that. We will agree to disagree. And let's move on, ok?

Typical Dispensationalist response: Ignore Apostolic interpretation.

First, there is no moving on until you retract your statement that the passage in Romans 4 contains "nothing of Genesis 17."

Second, Paul said Abraham did not waver at "THE PROMISE," but was strengthened to faith and had the conviction that God was able to perform it. Paul identifies "THE PROMISE" as Abraham being made "a father of many nations." It is explicitly called "THE PROMISE" which is "BY FAITH" in verse 14, that Abraham would be heir of the world (the Gentiles).

Where in Genesis 15 did God promise Abraham that he would be heir of the world (Gentiles)? That's in Genesis 17. Therefore, it is necessarily inferred that there was passage of time from the initial promise to when Abraham believed it.

Btw, note that the term "world" cannot mean every human being. Abraham is the heir of the world, yet NOT every human being.

 

[OzSpen]

G'day mate,

How's it going for old Jack?

You have put it well.

Keep up the good thinking even as we both get older.

Rom 8:38-39 does not obliterate apostasy of Heb 6:4-6. First John 5:16 is an interesting parallel verse:

If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that (ESV).

So a 'brother' can commit a sin 'leading to death' for whom there is no need to pray to give him life.

The Brissy bloke,
Oz

Rom.8:38, 39: Just another head's up, ie, when the question of apostasy is introduced, it's not solved by saying tha the elect will infallibly be saved. V.39, nothing "shall separate us," etc. In both lists no item such as our own unbelief, obduracy, or apostasy appears, ie, "apostasy" in the sense of IIThess.2:3, ie, has to occur in the church with true believers or it's not an apostasy.

Old Jack and his ideas

Hi brother Oz

 

[FreeGrace2]

Typical Dispensationalist response: Ignore Apostolic interpretation.

Are you claiming to be an apostle??

First, there is no moving on until you retract your statement that the passage in Romans 4 contains "nothing of Genesis 17."

My focus was on Rom 4:3, which was a quote from Gen 15:6. Of court Paul later in the chapter quoted from ch 17. That wasn't my point.

Second, Paul said Abraham did not waver at "THE PROMISE," but was strengthened to faith and had the conviction that God was able to perform it. Paul identifies "THE PROMISE" as Abraham being made "a father of many nations." It is explicitly called "THE PROMISE" which is "BY FAITH" in verse 14, that Abraham would be heir of the world (the Gentiles).

Well, there are more than 1 promise. In Gen 15:6 the promise was for an heir from his own loins, since his issue was that he had no child. Again, that was my focus.

Where in Genesis 15 did God promise Abraham that he would be heir of the world (Gentiles)? That's in Genesis 17. Therefore, it is necessarily inferred that there was passage of time from the initial promise to when Abraham believed it.

That wasn't my point. That's a dead horse you're beating.

Btw, note that the term "world" cannot mean every human being. Abraham is the heir of the world, yet NOT every human being.

The whole point of Rom 4 is that righteousness is imputed on the basis of faith. And that Abraham, because of Gen 15:6, the pattern of righteousness, is the father of all who believe.

 

[shturt678s]

Not necessary. The fact that "neither things to come" shall separate the love of Christ for us includes whatever happens in the future. C Templeton for example.

Rom.8:38, 39 not even bringing aboard the asepct of the writer, ie, only the context that vs.38 and 39 are to be construed with being vs.35-37. Again Paul is speaking to those who need this comfort for their valiant conquering, (v.37) for example, and need not to possible apostates - again both lists no item such as our own unbelief, obduracy, or apostasy even appears.

Old Jack trying to keep the figurative Noah's Ark afloat It keeps trying to go 'down under'.

 

[Jack Terrence]

deleted

 

[Jack Terrence]

Are you claiming to be an apostle??

I am telling you what the apostle Paul said.

My focus was on Rom 4:3, which was a quote from Gen 15:6. Of court Paul later in the chapter quoted from ch 17. That wasn't my point.

You are wrong anyway. Verses 13-22 CLEARLY indicate that Paul was speaking about Genesis 17.

Well, there are more than 1 promise. In Gen 15:6 the promise was for an heir from his own loins, since his issue was that he had no child. Again, that was my focus.

But Paul did NOT identify the promise of Genesis 15:6 as the promise that was "by faith." It is the promise that he would be "heir of the world" that is in view (vs. 13). This was the promise which was to come to Abraham "by faith." Paul even quoted Genesis 17:5, "I have made you a father of many nations."

We agree that Abraham had faith. The difference is that you think you think it faith originates with us, and that it is the "condition" of salvation. But I think that faith is the gift of God, and that it is only the instrument by which salvation is received. I base this on the passive verb and the dative noun in verse 20.

But we agree that Abraham had faith.

So Abraham is "heir of the world" by faith. Now you say that the term "world" means every human being. Therefore, universal salvation is the logical conclusion.

The whole point of Rom 4 is that righteousness is imputed on the basis of faith. And that Abraham, because of Gen 15:6, the pattern of righteousness, is the father of all who believe.

Your whole point is that faith originates with us and that it is a "condition" for salvation. But that's not Paul's point at all in Romans 4.

Paul said that faith is "according to grace" (vs. 16). If faith is "according to grace," then it cannot originate with us. Neither can it be a "condition."

 

[FreeGrace2]

But Paul did NOT identify the promise of Genesis 15:6 as the promise that was "by faith."

Frankly, I'm quite tired of this little merry go round with you. Please read these verses, in order:

Gen 15:6 - Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Rom 4:3 - For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

End of discussion.

 

[shturt678s]

Frankly, I'm quite tired of this little merry go round with you. Please read these verses, in order:

Gen 15:6 - Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Rom 4:3 - For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

End of discussion.

Humble pie, old Jack

 

[JCFantasy23]

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