Was the apostle Paul a Calvinist?

FreeGrace2

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Calvinists frequently quote Paul's writings as being supportive of Calvinism. But, was he? Did he believe that Christ died only for a subgroup of humanity, generally referred to as the elect? Did he ever write such a verse to support that view? Did he believe that God chooses who will believe? Or that God chooses who to save without any condition, such as faith?

The answer to these questions is "no". He never wrote anything to encourage one to believe that Christ died only for the elect, or that God chooses who will believe, or that He chooses to save people apart from the condition of faith.

So, why do Calvinists believe these things? Apart from clear and unambiguous verses to support their views, why do they hold to these views?

In Acts 20:21, Paul is quoted by Luke: I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

Of course Paul couldn't know who the elect and non-elect were when he preached. But to tell (even unknowingly) those who are "non-elect" acording to RT definition to "turn to God in repentance and have faith in in our Lord Jesus" is simply dishonest. They can't because, according to RT,they WEREN'T chosen to turn to God and have faith in Christ.

Yet, that was Paul's message to both Jews and Gentiles.

In Acts 18, Paul went to Corinth, to preach the gospel. Note v.8 - Crispus, the synagogue ruler, and his entire household believed in the Lord; and many of the Corinthians who heard him believed and were baptized.

Note that "many" believed, not all who heard him. This is noted as well in 1 Cor 15:11 - Whether, then, it was I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

We know from Acts 20:21 what Paul preached: turn to God and have faith in the Lord Jesus.

But, we also know more specifically what he preached in Corinth from 1 Cor 15:3 - For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures

"that Christ died for OUR sins" is what Paul preached, and per v.11, is what the Corinthians believed.

iow, they believed the gospel message, which was this:
#1 Christ died for OUR sins
#2 turn to God
#3 have faith in the Lord Jesus

Does this sound like Calvinism? No. Calvinism believes that Christ didn't die for everyone, yet Paul's clear message in 1 Cor 15:3 is that Christ died for OUR sins. Since he was addressing crowds, it is obvious that the first person plural pronoun "our" includes the whole crowd.

Challenge to Calvinists: 1)refute the questions at the beginning of this OP with Scripture. 2) exegete the passages provided to show how these verses do not support the view that Christ died for everyone.
 

sdowney717

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You keep looking at this from an earthy natural perspective, men talking to men, ' what must I do to be saved'.

Jesus Christ though is the foundation of a spiritual knowledge, understanding, truths of our relationship and how and why we are saved.

Jesus says the Father God has given, gifted to Jesus people. When Jesus says God has given Him, this is monergism in action, of His will, not of ourselves.

John 6
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 17 is also very clear about this giving in v2. and the end result is them knowing God and Jesus in v3.

In v2, not all flesh gets to know God, that is only for those that the Father gave to Christ to know God and have eternal life. This is a monergistic act of giving, and it is demonstrating predestination.

Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,

2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.

3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
 
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FreeGrace2

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You keep looking at this from an earthy natural perspective, men talking to men, ' what must I do to be saved'.
Actually, I keep looking at this from the words of Scripture. I don't think that's a problem. And I don't think Scripture is "an earthy natural perspective", but rather, God's clear communication to mankind.

Jesus Christ though is the foundation of a spiritual knowledge, understanding, truths of our relationship and how and why we are saved.

Jesus says the Father God has given, gifted to Jesus people. When Jesus says God has given Him, this is monergism in action, of His will, not of ourselves.

John 17 is also very clear about this giving in v2. and the end result is them knowing God and Jesus in v3.

In v2, not all flesh gets to know God, that is only for those that the Father gave to Christ to know God and have eternal life. This is a monergistic act of giving, and it is demonstrating predestination.
How does this address the OP?

"Challenge to Calvinists: 1)refute the questions at the beginning of this OP with Scripture. 2) exegete the passages provided to show how these verses do not support the view that Christ died for everyone."

Please address the OP when you post.
 
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sdowney717

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Actually, I keep looking at this from the words of Scripture. I don't think that's a problem. And I don't think Scripture is "an earthy natural perspective", but rather, God's clear communication to mankind.


How does this address the OP?

"Challenge to Calvinists: 1)refute the questions at the beginning of this OP with Scripture. 2) exegete the passages provided to show how these verses do not support the view that Christ died for everyone."

Please address the OP when you post.


It does not because it does not need to do that. You keep looking at this from an earthy man to man type of view, ignoring what Jesus says about spiritual realities. Of course it is appropriate to tell people to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, but this does not show any truths about what lies under neath, your just exposing what is sitting on top, a superficial person to person interaction.

Acts 13 shows the apostles testifying of the good news to some who both accept and reject it.
Then Acts tells us why some believed the message in v 48

44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us:

‘I have set you as a light to the Gentiles,
That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.’”[k]
48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Those who are ordained or appointed to eternal life then believe the message, it does not say

"And as many as believed were then appointed to eternal life"
You have it backwards as do all synergists who say I believed because I was a better learner than the others.
 
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Jack Terrence

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Of course Paul couldn't know who the elect and non-elect were when he preached.
This has already been disproven. Paul knew that the Gentiles would accept salvation:

So I want you to know that this salvation from God has also been offered to the Gentiles, and they will accept it." Acts 28:28


If Paul knew that they would accept it, then he knew that they were elect. And if he knew that they were elect whether conditionally or unconditionaly, then he could say to them "Christ died for OUR sins."

Or, to put it this way: If Paul knew beforehand that they would believe, then he could say to them "Christ died for OUR sins."

Paul was a prophet in case you didn't know.
 
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FreeGrace2

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It does not because it does not need to do that. You keep looking at this from an earthy man to man type of view, ignoring what Jesus says about spiritual realities. Of course it is appropriate to tell people to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, but this does not show any truths about what lies under neath, your just exposing what is sitting on top, a superficial person to person interaction.

Acts 13 shows the apostles testifying of the good news to some who both accept and reject it.
Then Acts tells us why some believed the message in v 48



Those who are ordained or appointed to eternal life then believe the message, it does not say

"And as many as believed were then appointed to eternal life"
You have it backwards as do all synergists who say I believed because I was a better learner than the others.
OK, since you've decided not to address the OP, please stop posting.
 
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FreeGrace2

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This has already been disproven. Paul knew that the Gentiles would accept salvation:
Every single Gentile who heard Paul's message? Of course not! In fact, I've refuted your claim from Acts 18:8 - and many of the Corinthians who heard him believed and were baptized.

It does not say "and all of the Corinthians (Greeks) who heard him believed and were baptized".

So I want you to know that this salvation from God has also been offered to the Gentiles, and they will accept it." Acts 28:28
Many did, but not all. Which is the point.

If Paul knew that they would accept it, then he knew that they were elect. And if he knew that they were elect whether conditionally or unconditionaly, then he could say to them "Christ died for OUR sins."

Or, to put it this way: If Paul knew beforehand that they would believe, then he could say to them "Christ died for OUR sins."
Is there any evidence for the claim that Paul "knew beforehand" that anyone would believe, specifically? Of course not. Yes, many Gentiles who heard believed, but NOT ALL of them, which is the point.

And I've given the message Paul preached. That message is not only irrelevant to anyone for whom Christ didn't die, but it is patently dishonest to tell them that gospel. Why don't Calvinists get that point?

Paul was a prophet in case you didn't know.
Is there any evidence that Paul "knew beforehand" who Christ died for and who He didn't die for? Of course not.

In fact, my point is that his message was a saving message for ALL TO WHOM HE PREACHED, because Christ died for everyone.

That has not been disproven. Disagreed with, rejected, yes, but refuted? No.

If the OP is in error, please take it apart point by point, showing me how it is.
 
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sdowney717

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Calvinism believes that Christ didn't die for everyone, yet Paul's clear message in 1 Cor 15:3 is that Christ died for OUR sins. Since he was addressing crowds, it is obvious that the first person plural pronoun "our" includes the whole crowd.

Challenge to Calvinists: 1)refute the questions at the beginning of this OP with Scripture. 2) exegete the passages provided to show how these verses do not support the view that Christ died for everyone.

well what strange belief that 1 cor 15 is addressing crowds? Only crowds of believers is whom Paul is addressing.

1 Cor 14 the church gifts, then Paul in 1 Cor 15, says to the 'brethren', who are believers! Do you think brethren are non believers in the 'whole crowd' of the human race? You make a massive false leap.

1 Corinthians 15
New King James Version (NKJV)
The Risen Christ, Faith’s Reality

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

You must think Paul here is talking to the whole world. But Paul is talking to the 'brethren' only and specifically Corinthian believers.
 
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abacabb3

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I will take you up on your challenge and address all your points and answer all your questions, and explain all of your Scripture passages.

Calvinists frequently quote Paul's writings as being supportive of Calvinism. But, was he?
He taught doctrine which is today coined "Calvinism."

Did he believe that Christ died only for a subgroup of humanity, generally referred to as the elect?

He died for all men, but "especially believers."

"Christ so loved the church and gave himself up for her" (Eph. 5:25) NOTE: Not those who were not his bride.

"For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers" (1 Tim 4:10)

Pretty much says it all right there. Christ's work is sufficient to save all, but there is something "special" for His church.

Did he ever write such a verse to support that view?
Just quoted a couple.

Did he believe that God chooses who will believe?

So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. (Phil 2:12-13)

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; (Eph 2:8)

Or that God chooses who to save without any condition, such as faith?

"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness" (Romans 4:5)

So, why do Calvinists believe these things?
Because the Scripture would be embarrassingly inconsistent otherwise. You have all this stuff about God choosing a peculiar people, willing them to act, and justifying them by grace through faith. I am not quite sure how any of this makes sense without what we call today a "Calvinisitic" lens.

Apart from clear and unambiguous verses to support their views, why do they hold to these views?
Because I just quoted clear and unambiguous verses that do not lend themselves to any other interpretation. In fact, I challenge you to show if they are not talking about faith not being of our own, and GOd working through us, and what not, what are they teaching? Because, that's what they say!

Acts 20:21--But to tell (even unknowingly) those who are "non-elect" acording to RT definition to "turn to God in repentance and have faith in in our Lord Jesus" is simply dishonest.

It isn't dishonest. It is a consistent biblical witness that repentance is part of being faithful to God. The Calvinists add one caveat: that God first moves the heart to faith.

Now, being that we have verses that already say that, let me add to them and show indisputably this is precisely what Ezekiel had in mind without a shed of doubt, because he seemingly prophesies from your perspective, but later clarification shows the statement is thoroughly Calvinistic:

"Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit!" (Ezek 18:31)

"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances." (Ezek 36:26-27)

Is Ezekiel being dishonest? He just commanded the Israelites to get their own new hearts, but then God makes clear it is He that gives those hearts of flesh and literally by His Spirit gives them the ability to live righteously (like it says in Phil 2:13).

Obviously, both are true, and the monergistic interpretation, that God is the "author and perfecter of our faith" (Heb 12:2) is the only one that could make sense. Nothing else does. Period.

Acts 18:8, 1 COr 15:11--Note that "many" believed, not all who heard him.

But this makes sense in Calvinism. Just hearing the Gospel doesn't save someone. God has to incline a man's heart so that He would believe what is preached.

1 Cor 15:3, Acts 20:1-- Since he was addressing crowds, it is obvious that the first person plural pronoun "our" includes the whole crowd.

When he was writing to COrinth, he was writing to a church, not a random crowd. Nevertheless, God makes His salvation available to all, but "man’s heart is evil from his youth" (Gen 8:21) and will reject that message by default. That's why though God desires us to go seek new hearts, He has to get new ones for us.


So, FreeGrace, now that I have definitively addressed all your points and showed that Scripture would have to be a contradiction to be preaching any other message, do you recant?
 
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Epiphoskei

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Did he believe that Christ died only for a subgroup of humanity, generally referred to as the elect?


The apostle Paul meets someone from hell at the gates of heaven. The damned man wants access. Paul denies it to him. The damned man says he can prove, from the scripture, from Paul's own part of it, that he should be allowed into heaven. He quotes:

"He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?"

and asserts that since Christ died for him, and since admission into heaven is a thing, how will God not also give him admission into heaven?

Your version of Paul's response?
 
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pshun2404

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None of the Apostles nor any they directly taught to teach others adhered to the Calvinist position (for which over 50 scriptures must be eliminated or re-interpreted through their filtering system)...double predestination is a man made myth. This is NOT an attack against those of the reformed Reformed camp who have adopted the one sided predestination view that came out of a response to the Arminians.

Secondly, since it is obvious this man (Calvin) would not be born for 15 centuries, and that no one before him followed this doctrine as he presented it, then no...Paul could not possibly have been a Calvinist (neither if all he said and taught is taken in can he be said to have been teaching this view of double predestination)

Paul
 
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Skala

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The apostle Paul meets someone from hell at the gates of heaven. The damned man wants access. Paul denies it to him. The damned man says he can prove, from the scripture, from Paul's own part of it, that he should be allowed into heaven. He quotes:

"He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?"

and asserts that since Christ died for him, and since admission into heaven is a thing, how will God not also give him admission into heaven?

Your version of Paul's response?

THIS POST THO.
 
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Skala

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None of the Apostles nor any they directly taught to teach others adhered to the Calvinist position

Demonstrably alse. Please see the scripture references in both the Canons of Dordt as well as the Westminster Confession of faith, and Baptist equivalent. (baptist confession of faith 1644/1689)

Secondly, since it is obvious this man (Calvin) would not be born for 15 centuries, and that no one before him followed this doctrine as he presented it, then no...Paul could not possibly have been a Calvinist (neither if all he said and taught is taken in can he be said to have been teaching this view of double predestination)

Calvinism refers to a set of doctrines that are derived from the Bible. It has nothing to do what John Calvin taught.
 
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Johnnz

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No way was Paul a Calvinist. His heartfelt cry that he might be dammed if only Israel would repent makes no sense at all if he believed God had predetermined most Jews not ever to be saved. His cry would be little more than some theatrical posturing.

John
NZ
 
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Skala

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No way was Paul a Calvinist. He heartfelt cry that he might be dammed if only Israel would repent makes no sense at all if he believed God had predetermined most Jews not ever to be saved. His cry would be little more than some theatrical posturing.

John
NZ

False. It simply showed his evangelical heart and his compassion for other sinners.
 
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FreeGrace2

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well what strange belief that 1 cor 15 is addressing crowds? Only crowds of believers is whom Paul is addressing.
Maybe one does not understand the past tense in English. Whatever. The translators understood what Paul was saying and translated it in such a way to communicate that Paul was reminding the believers of what Paul had preachED to them, and in which they believED. v.11

1 Cor 14 the church gifts, then Paul in 1 Cor 15, says to the 'brethren', who are believers! Do you think brethren are non believers in the 'whole crowd' of the human race? You make a massive false leap.
This paragraph is meaningless. They were believers when Paul wrote to them. But not until they heard his gospel message that "Christ died for OUR sins", and which they believED.

1 Corinthians 15
New King James Version (NKJV)

You must think Paul here is talking to the whole world. But Paul is talking to the 'brethren' only and specifically Corinthian believers.
No, I know he was addressing believers in the Corinthian church. And he was reminding them of what he HAD preachED to them, which they had believED.

That's what made them believers; they believed the message that Paul preachED: Christ died for OUR sins.

1 Cor 15:1 - Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand.

v.3 - For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures

v.11 - Whether, then, it was I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

iow, Paul preached "Christ died for OUR sins", and his addressees believed it. Which is when they became believers.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Being that we're quoting acts: "When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed." (Acts 13:48)
Though having nothing to do with the OP, can you exegete this verse?

Define "tasso"
Determine voice

Get back to me when you've done this.
 
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Jack Terrence

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Every single Gentile who heard Paul's message? Of course not!
Every single Gentile who heard Peter's word believed (Acts 10:44).

In fact, I've refuted your claim from Acts 18:8 - and many of the Corinthians who heard him believed and were baptized.

It does not say "and all of the Corinthians (Greeks) who heard him believed and were baptized".
Non sequitur. Paul said that by the dosobedience of one many were made sinners. So, by your logic this means not all were made sinners.

Read Acts 28:9-11. Don't stop at verse 8. Jesus appeared to Paul in a vision and told Him "I have many people in this city." It was on this assurance that Paul continued in that city for another 18 months. Do you really think that Christ would appear to Paul and tell him that He had many people in the city and not disclose to Paul who they were?

It is my contention that Paul went ONLY to those whom Christ disclosed were His people and said to them, "Christ died for OUR sins."

While you are looking at the context take special note of verse 27 which says that they believed because of grace.

Many did, but not all. Which is the point.
Prove it.

Is there any evidence for the claim that Paul "knew beforehand" that anyone would believe, specifically?
Yes. To whomever Paul spoke the words "Christ died for OUR sins." Paul knew beforehand that they would believe. He was a prophet. Paul could NEVER have told a person that "Christ died for OUR sins" unless Jesus had given him to know that that person would believe. Paul knew that those who die in unbelief must die in their sins. How could Paul tell a person who may die in his sins that his sins were taken away? It is preposterous!!
 
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