Was Satan Perfect?

[Neogaia777]

He was perfectly created/made/formed for the purpose that he was made/created for, He was created as the praise and worship leader of the angels, as Lucifer... However, he became puffed-up with pride, and he started to change in his heart due to this, which led him to desire and think that he could be like and even overthrow God, at that point, his heart changed from being what God created him as, which was "good" to "wicked" and he decided to start to speak against God, putting on quite a show doing this, in the presence of all the rest of the angels and caused a third of them to doubt and start to think like him in pronouncing and declaring God wicked and unrighteous and unjust, he was very intelligent and presented many arguments and cases toward this purpose and sowed seeds of doubt in a third of the angels hearts, which led to a rebellion...

He forsook his original dwelling place, that is his original purpose, and changed and coorupted his original purpose that he was created for due to his pride and selfish desire to become and overthrow God in his heart, which led him to lead a rebellion against God... This change in him is also connected to us, the creation of humankind, which had much to do with the many very convincing arguments and cases he presented in trying to convince the rest that God was wicked and unjust, by doing so to sow seeds of doubt in the third of the angels hearts that then chose to follow and ally with him in this purpose and goal of his...

What he didn't know is that God, knew this was all going to happen, I do not know, but I do not think God even tried to defend himself when these arguments were presented... Two thirds did not rebel or go with him in this, they did not change in their hearts despite his many very convincing arguments and did not forsake their original purpose(s) they were created for, but remained faithful and true to God... His arguments may or may not have challenged their faith in God, if it did, their faith was only strengthened and grew by it/them, which could have been part of God's plan, for them... And, perhaps part of the purpose of why God created Satan for the purpose that he did, perhaps..

We also have a choice when he attacks us and challenges our faith, much like they did, our faith can either be strengthened by it/through it, or it can fail us... He puts us through the "fire" so to speak, only with the intention and expectation to destroy us in his heart, and/but we can either be "refined" like Gold in a furnace, or we can be burned up and consumed like hay stubble... He cannot do any of this without permission... The enemy does not know which way it will go, he knows he's taking a risk, but he thinks he can gamble and win against us and God, only God already knows the outcome...

Each test from him can be a step-up higher, or make us sink down lower, depending on our "choice" in how we respond/act/react and our perspective and view of it... Some people actually enjoy it and appreciate it, their faith being questioned/challenged/tested because they "like" wrestling with the doubts/questionings it cause them to ask themselves, because they "want" to work through it, they enjoy the challenge, anticipating a stronger faith and strengthened more confident, assured belief as the prize at the end of each of these tests... This really p^sses him (the enemy) off... When we can see it this way... However, God is very pleased with such ones...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

I think the biggest and most important question here is how did Satan have a sinful nature swell up in him, while he was in a place where sin cannot exist (heaven)? Unless, he was simply doing God's will as he was told to do, as this would not be sin. We know this, because God operates outside of such things. So, I think I would like to hear the argument against that. It would be most interesting. It's better than all the other arguments that talk about how God knew Lucifer was going to fall before he made him etc etc.... Kinda almost makes God guilty for even creating him. Sort of like how it would be if I raised my kid to be a Muslim extremist and had it planned even before his birth. Nevertheless, I nurtured that idea and put a gun in his had at 2 and had him shouting Allah ackbar and death to the infidels until he blows himself up somewhere. If videos or any other evidence showed how a reared the child knowingly making him a devil (of sorts). There could be some serious problems there and maybe even some criminal charges if done in the US. But, like I said, those are all old arguments, but still no one has the answers. So, lets just keep believing and not give in to the incredibly worldy tradition of "critical thinking" or "common sense". Amen!

God created all of them (angels) with free-will (choice) to commit sin, though they may not have known it to be sin, because what began the change that led to him (Lucifer) choosing and acting wickedly, was the subtle sin of "pride", which God may have made him for in order to show this error as "sin" to the rest of them, so they would not do the same... God knew it was going to happen, it is a consequence or outcome of creating beings with free-will, and not automatons... However, It didn't "have to be him" (Satan) that "had" or was predestined to originally "choose" this... One of the others could have chose it... But, he did, he chose it... God knew "one" of them was going to do this, and a percentage of the rest were going to join and follow after him in what he was doing, as a consequence or result of creating beings with free-will, and not automatons... However, which one individually, or which ones each individually were going to make up the percentage, He may not have known, or chose not to know, because he didn't have to, because it wasn't necessary...

God Bless!

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

Free will.

One way to look at is by thinking of a baby. So lets say your rich and want a "perfect" baby. So you have it genetically modified. It won't have health issues, will be stronger, faster, smarter, have the eye colors you want, the hair you want...etc. Thus in your eyes the baby will be perfect.

Now does this mean this perfect baby will stay perfect? No. It can still get sick. It can still get injured or die. And morally it can change as it ages. In other words being made perfect doesn't mean you stay perfect. Not counting God of course.

We are given free will. As was the devil and anything else. Those with free will choose the path they want to go down. Adam and Eve chose the apple. The devil chose to not worship God. So even is he was made perfect, he still had free will to leave that perfectness behind.

 

[jeager016]

Gotta agree with the "free will" posters.
We humans have free will.
That I know is arguable by some.
Choice.
I have the ability to make choices.
I've made bad choices and the results were also bad.
One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over
while expecting different results.
"It'll be different this time."
"Do what you always did; get what you always got".
Friends you can feel 100% free to quote me on that.

 

[Breckmin]

There is another question that perplexes me. There seems to be scriptural support for the idea that a third of the angels fell with Satan. Why did they follow him?

The Bible doesn't tell us the detailed reason(s).
Some theologians believe that certain angels who loved Lucifer thought it
was unfair. Some agree with Muslims that these angels were also jealous of
Adam/humans like Lucifer was. Some theologians believe that the angels
that fell were under him and he led them...into deception perhaps...or just
influenced them enough to commit evil and question God.

There are other theories... like that the angels didn't know the punishment
for following Lucifer... or that there were several reasons for discontentment
like the ones listed above (jealous of Adam, unfair to punish satan forever,
didn't know what the consequences would really be, love for their fellow
angel and they made an idol of him (satan/Lucifer) before God, etc).

No one knows for certain why these fellow angels followed satan into
their evil which resulted in eternal punishment (because God is absolutely
Holy and Just)... but they had freewill...

which can be a danger to the creature if you aren't eternally and perfectly
loyal... like the holy angels now... and born-again believers will be in
heaven.

 

[Breckmin]

Adam and Eve chose the apple.

better an apple than a giant grape which when broken created fermentation and
alcohol which corrupted the body/flesh. Why would Eve reach for a clump of
grapes? rather than an apple? probably drawn or painted somewhere...

http://custance.org/Library/SOTW/Part_I/chap10.html
Figure 5

I prefer not to know what kind of "fruit" it actually was...until the afterlife.

giant "antediluvian greenhouse" grape ape or Adam's apple? you choose

 

[tickingclocker]

A perfect being wouldn't rebel against God in the first place.



God didn't "make" Satan in some sort of supernatural workshop. It wouldn't make sense for an all-benevolent God to create a person who would go on to cause so much chaos in the world. Satan was actually born as a human during ancient times, lived a normal life, then died and became a spirit.

LOL! And you have irrefutable proof of Satan's existence as a former human.... where?

 

[tickingclocker]

Satan was an angel - Lucifer - created by God. I've never really considered whether angels are perfect, but I cannot imagine a perfect, holy, good God making something that was imperfect, so I suppose he must have been.
I can only think that the angels were given free will, same as we were, and that at some point Satan thought he would try to get God's throne, or become greater than him in some way.

I don't think Satan wanted to be "greater" than God. God IS the greatest.... of everything anywhere. He did say, "I will be "like" the Most High", not "I will be greater than the Most High." Satan is fully aware that God is perfect in every way. To me he sounds like the ultimate Narcissist, wholly in love with his own "near perfect" image. Satan saw his one of two flaws in not being able to have the divine power of God. He was a servant "of" the God of all power, and apparently thought the job was beneath him. Where he got the idea from that he could become God is unfathomable. Although, there are humans who seem to think they can somehow become divine, too. Hmm.... He never noticed his flaw of pride. Sounds vaguely familiar.

 

[George Spencer]

I have a question: It's my understanding that God is subject to time, past, present, or future, that He knows what is going to happen before it happens, and that applies through the whole timeline.
Given that premise, WHY would God create Satan, or the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden, if He KNEW beforehand the evil and suffering that Satan would cause, or that Adam and Eve would surely fail? God KNEW it beforehand, so....why?
No blasphemy intended, but I get this picture of God sitting on His throne, knowing He would be bored with the present model, so He created these things/situations so He would have 7 billion individuals to be involved with just to keep His interest up. After all, when you know it ALL, 7 billion chess games/lives going at the same time would only use a fraction of His intellect....
But then God's thoughts are SO far above our thoughts, etc.... But He told us we could question, so....I'm questioning..... any thoughts?

 

[tickingclocker]

Biblically, the word "perfect" is usually in the sense of complete... and the Bible does not say that Satan as a being was perfect, only that he was perfect "in all his ways" until iniquity was found in him through pride (see Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28). Only God is truly perfect in the sense of absolute perfection. It would be impossible for God to "create" another infinite uncreated being, so God cannot create a being like Himself. Satan was as wise and beautiful and powerful as God wanted him to be, and he had a free will just like we do. Pride caused Satan to begin to want to exalt himself above God, and when he rebelled sin corrupted him and he became the demonic being he is today.

God does not have free will per say. (Could it be said that He IS free will? IDK.) Each and every one of His choices is determined by divine perfection, so how can He have free will (to my understanding)? He doesn't possess the power to choose wrongly. Those with free will can choose wrongly, like humans and angels.

So I can see what you are saying. Complete fleshes out the concept more than "perfect". He was "perfect in all his ways" as a servant of God, until he started believing his God-given abilities were the result of his own possession.

 

[George Spencer]

I have a question: It's my understanding that God is subject to time, past, present, or future, that He knows what is going to happen before it happens, and that applies through the whole timeline.
Given that premise, WHY would God create Satan, or the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden, if He KNEW beforehand the evil and suffering that Satan would cause, or that Adam and Eve would surely fail? God KNEW it beforehand, so....why?
No blasphemy intended, but I get this picture of God sitting on His throne, knowing He would be bored with the present model, so He created these things/situations so He would have 7 billion individuals to be involved with just to keep His interest up. After all, when you know it ALL, 7 billion chess games/lives going at the same time would only use a fraction of His intellect....
But then God's thoughts are SO far above our thoughts, etc.... But He told us we could question, so....I'm questioning..... any thoughts?

 

[tickingclocker]

Easy answer. Lucifer was in charge of the Earth, and the dinosaurs which Godf created. (It's so dumb when people think God didn't create them due to their relation to science and the whole science vs. religion deal). The Earth was already made, and the dinosaurs were the inhabitants. However, they were not hunters at the time. Did you know recent studies have shown the tyrannosaurus rex to be a SCAVENGER? Not a hunter. It ate things that were already dead.

However, Lucifer was not up for GOd's new plan: to let humans rule the planet Lucifer had taken so much care off. Lucifer, being the very intelligent being he is, got it in his head that he';s smarter than God. My father has a theory that Lucifer experimented with the dinosaurs, turning some into killers. It's possible through the teamwork of velociraptors taking down larger prey, Lucifer got it in his head that if he gathered the angels he was in charge of, he could overthrow God.

However, there's a big flaw that Lucifer made. Lucifer was running experiments on the dinosaurs like the Earth was his own ancient science lab. Beakers and stuff like that weren't invented at the time, so the best way to experiment is with what you alrerady have. In that time, that was the dinosaurs. But Lucifer used the results of his scientific experiment to try and defeat something that clearly went beyond scientific, physical, and mental limits: God. God punished Lucifer, renamed him Satan (adversary) and the devil then destroyed the Earth in his anger. But God "created" it again. The earth was without form and void because of the devil.

LOL! And you have irrefutable proof of Satan being "in charge of the earth" and its dinosaurs.... where?

 

[tickingclocker]

I have a question: It's my understanding that God is subject to time, past, present, or future, that He knows what is going to happen before it happens, and that applies through the whole timeline.
Given that premise, WHY would God create Satan, or the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden, if He KNEW beforehand the evil and suffering that Satan would cause, or that Adam and Eve would surely fail? God KNEW it beforehand, so....why?
No blasphemy intended, but I get this picture of God sitting on His throne, knowing He would be bored with the present model, so He created these things/situations so He would have 7 billion individuals to be involved with just to keep His interest up. After all, when you know it ALL, 7 billion chess games/lives going at the same time would only use a fraction of His intellect....
But then God's thoughts are SO far above our thoughts, etc.... But He told us we could question, so....I'm questioning..... any thoughts?

Boredom is a human concept. It's also a flaw. God is perfect, and therefore perfectly content with His Godhood, so He cannot be "bored" with life. Unlike us. Unlike some angels.

He has His reasons. They will all be revealed after the Millennium. Wait for it.

 

[tickingclocker]

Ex. 20:11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them...

He had to be created within the 6 days. Likely it was day 1, when light was created. Angels are beings of light.

Who says? Where does it say in the bible that angels are limited to the earth? They could well have been created long before God ever created the earth. They are also HIS servants, not ours.

The verse you cite simply tells of earth's physical creation. Says nothing of the physical creation of angels. To include them is to force scripture to say something it does not.

 

[George Spencer]

Boredom is a human concept. It's also a flaw. God is perfect, and therefore perfectly content with His Godhood, so He cannot be "bored" with life. Unlike us. Unlike some angels.

He has His reasons. They will all be revealed after the Millennium. Wait for it.

Then why would God put Adam and Eve through the test HE set up if He knew they would fail? Or why did He make Satan if He knew the rebellion he would lead, then get thrown down to the Earth to cause such pain and suffering?
Again, no disrespect or blasphemy intended, just one of those questions I can't wrap my mind/spirit around....
It's EVER so hard to leave some subjects to God's thoughts being SO much beyond our thoughts....

The other question I have is why, if Satan was/is SO smart, WHY would he lead a rebellion against GOD, when Satan obviously KNEW who he was messing with....he LIVED with God, he witnessed the Creation, and the powers of the limitless God?!! WHO in their right mind would step into the ring with GOD??!!!

 

[tickingclocker]

Then why would God put Adam and Eve through the test HE set up if He knew they would fail? Or why did He make Satan if He knew the rebellion he would lead, then get thrown down to the Earth to cause such pain and suffering?
Again, no disrespect or blasphemy intended, just one of those questions I can't wrap my mind/spirit around....
It's EVER so hard to leave some subjects to God's thoughts being SO much beyond our thoughts....

The other question I have is why, if Satan was/is SO smart, WHY would he lead a rebellion against GOD, when Satan obviously KNEW who he was messing with....he LIVED with God, he witnessed the Creation, and the powers of the limitless God?!! WHO in their right mind would step into the ring with GOD??!!!

I don't know. Neither do you. Nobody does except God. Where is it stated in God's Word that we NEED to know NOW the answers to every one of our questions? Where is the faith in that?

Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are the people who have not seen and yet have believed.” (John 20:29)

 

[George Spencer]

Ok, never mind, lol....I was just hoping somebody out there might have an answer to a few questions that have been itching the back of my spiritual mind for a long while....
Ok, this is me back to Ok, Lord, let Your will be done, I'll just sit back in awe, watching You do what You do. Forgive me if I ask foolish questions, lol?

Hey, I KNOW God has a sense of humor......He made ME!!!

God Bless you all!

 

[RDKirk]

Was Satan a perfect being before he rebelled? If so, how could he have? If not, why did God make an imperfect being?

First, let's define the basic term.

What does "perfect" actually mean? Does it mean the same thing with reference to God as it means to an angelic being? Does it mean the same thing with reference to an angelic being as it does to man?

A builder can hire a subcontractor to build the foundation of a house, and it may be a "perfect" foundation...but nobody can live in the house yet. The roofer can put on a "perfect" roof...but nobody can live in the house yet. Doe "perfect" mean the same thing for the roofer as it does for the builder? Or the future owner?

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. -- Matthew 5

The Greek teleios means "brought to its end, finished." Plato used teleios a lot. It means becoming what you were intended to become, or all that you can become. The telios of an acorn, for instance, is an oak tree. (I would point out, too, that the basic meaning of the OT Hebrew tamiym describing Lucifer that is translated to the English "perfect" is different from the meaning of the Greek telios that is translated to the English as "perfect." OT tamiym is not the same thing as NT teleios. The OT kalal as in Ezekiel 27:4 is more similar to the Greek telios.)

God is already "all He can be" and "all He means Himself to be."

Jesus is calling us to become all we are meant to be--what God intended from the beginning that we are to become-- and a major point to understand is that we are meant to be more...the simple fact that we even have a telios is important to understand:

For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. -- Ephesians 2

A person who has become what God prepared him in advance to become has reached his telios.

And the telios of an acorn is different from the telios of a chicken egg, so there is no reason to think that the telios of an angel is the same as a telios of a man, or that the telios which God is is the same as the telios of a man.

So the question is: Did Satan reach his telios?

...Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. -- 1 Peter 1

I think here and in other places such as Revelation 13 and Ephesians 2, scripture makes it perfectly clear that the Fall was planned by God and not a matter of Fall-free plan being upset by an unanticipated villain.

 

[DoubtfulSalvation]

God created all of them (angels) with free-will (choice) to commit sin, though they may not have known it to be sin, because what began the change that led to him (Lucifer) choosing and acting wickedly, was the subtle sin of "pride", which God may have made him for in order to show this error as "sin" to the rest of them, so they would not do the same... God knew it was going to happen, it is a consequence or outcome of creating beings with free-will, and not automatons... However, It didn't "have to be him" (Satan) that "had" or was predestined to originally "choose" this... One of the others could have chose it... But, he did, he chose it... God knew "one" of them was going to do this, and a percentage of the rest were going to join and follow after him in what he was doing, as a consequence or result of creating beings with free-will, and not automatons... However, which one individually, or which ones each individually were going to make up the percentage, He may not have known, or chose not to know, because he didn't have to, because it wasn't necessary...

God Bless!

Which is why he should have either created a different creation, or he should have been responsible adult God and not created anything at all. It would be much better than all the pain, suffering and absolute non sense that has resulted from the past 6 thousand years of existence. God should be satisfied with being God. The idea that a complete and perfect being would want/need to be admonished is an absolutely human concept and it makes me questions God's deity. Especially, when you consider the fact that he's willing to unleash untold misery on billions or more to get it. Wait, i know that was there "free will" choice and so on, but as we've already stated if he knew the outcome, he should have re thought his conclusion. It's a bitter hard pill to swallow, but it seems to be the absolute truth. The sad thing is, is that there is nothing that we can do about it now. It does make it hard to witness to people when these questions come up, because there is no way to justify how God has acted like any other pagan God or even human at times (I know, I know, God doesn't have to justify anything. Lucky him). So, it's hard for me also to accept that people who have these reasonable questions will be sent to hell, even when they just can't grasp the fullness of it. Now, here's a place where we don't a free will. If you are giving to choices to make in a state of duress, knowing that ones choice leads to mortal danger if you choose it, than you can't call it free will. Just like a robber who holds you up at gun point. Sure, you can give him the money, but that's the only choice. Anything else is a forced decision and cannot be counted as real. I digress, that's a topic on it's own right.

 

[Jezmeyah]

Was Satan a perfect being before he rebelled? If so, how could he have? If not, why did God make an imperfect being?

You associate the word 'perfect' with 'being incapable of doing wrong'. To be incapable of doing wrong would be either by choice to obey the good example that God provides, or by being created incapable of doing wrong.
If angels and men had been created to do no wrong, then what relationship would be had with a love and choice oriented God?

To God, perfect- concerning angels, as well as concerning humans, means 'having the ability to make a choice to do good or do evil.'
By His own example of what is good, angels and humans are to reflect His goodness by choice, or goodness without choice has very little value. If angels and humans were only created to do good, then how could the measure of good be known if evil did not even exist as a wrong option?

You ask how it was possible for God, or why did God make an imperfect being. But, being capable of making a choice to (also) do wrong is not God's definition of being an imperfect being.

Would God be God, or, would He be a good God if He'd only created beings who were incapable of making choices? but only be capable of doing whatever God wanted them to do? I'd say that God would not have any evidence of being good if angels and humans were not at least capable of choosing to do wrong.