Was Satan Perfect?

[John Nagel]

Was Satan there before earth created? Or the day after God told Adam not to eat one of fruit?

 

[Calminian]

Thank you for the clarification on the meaning of the Hebrew word translated as "perfect"... I was thinking of the Greek probably.

I think the gist of what you said is correct.

 

[CrystalDragon]

Easy answer. Lucifer was in charge of the Earth, and the dinosaurs which Godf created. (It's so dumb when people think God didn't create them due to their relation to science and the whole science vs. religion deal). The Earth was already made, and the dinosaurs were the inhabitants. However, they were not hunters at the time. Did you know recent studies have shown the tyrannosaurus rex to be a SCAVENGER? Not a hunter. It ate things that were already dead.

However, Lucifer was not up for GOd's new plan: to let humans rule the planet Lucifer had taken so much care off. Lucifer, being the very intelligent being he is, got it in his head that he';s smarter than God. My father has a theory that Lucifer experimented with the dinosaurs, turning some into killers. It's possible through the teamwork of velociraptors taking down larger prey, Lucifer got it in his head that if he gathered the angels he was in charge of, he could overthrow God.

However, there's a big flaw that Lucifer made. Lucifer was running experiments on the dinosaurs like the Earth was his own ancient science lab. Beakers and stuff like that weren't invented at the time, so the best way to experiment is with what you alrerady have. In that time, that was the dinosaurs. But Lucifer used the results of his scientific experiment to try and defeat something that clearly went beyond scientific, physical, and mental limits: God. God punished Lucifer, renamed him Satan (adversary) and the devil then destroyed the Earth in his anger. But God "created" it again. The earth was without form and void because of the devil.

I thought Lucifer waste getting to a Babylonian King, not Satan. Satan was never described as being Lucifer, just Satan. Come to think of it, it never called the serpent in Eden Satan either, the Bible just says it was "the craftiest of all the creatures", that's it.

Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness, and he actually worked for God in Job.

 

[Calminian]

Was Satan there before earth created? Or the day after God told Adam not to eat one of fruit?

Ex. 20:11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them...

He had to be created within the 6 days. Likely it was day 1, when light was created. Angels are beings of light.

 

[DeepWater]

Lucifer was as 'perfect" as all other Heavenly "created" beings.
He was created to be a certain "type" being, and was perfect in his type, similar to Adam, or to Gabriel.
Perfect in form and function, but had an issue with Pride, as free will tends to allow for iniquity.
Thats LIFE.
"Free will' allows for choice, and choice allows for transgression.
Thats how it works.

 

[AlexDTX]

Was Satan a perfect being before he rebelled? If so, how could he have? If not, why did God make an imperfect being?

Perfect has a connotation today that it did not have in the past. It means complete. Today we think of perfect as flawless, which is Biblically correct. Satan was perfect as were Adam and Eve. However, free will is what makes us all living beings. A free will means that it can choose to err. Satan chose to err when he sought to be like God. Adam and Eve erred when they believed Satan that they were not like God already.

 

[Dave B]

Only perfect being is God.
The reason he'd make an imperfect being, is the same reason he gave us free will.
He wants us to desire Him, and to want to be with him. He isn't going to force anyone or anything to be with him, if they don't wanna.

Lucifer was a perfect creation. Free will is for choosing good and not evil. Misuse of free will is taking license, that is, choosing evil over good and Godliness, God also gave him free will as He also did for us. It was Lucifer's misuse of his free will that caused his corruption as it was Adam's misuse if his free will that also caused our corruption.

Likewise, man was also created perfect and the free will decision to commit sin made God's perfect creation into a corrupted creation. This is why we have death, illnesses and a propensity to favor evil over good.

 

[GodDreamer0715]

Both Lucifer and Adam were created perfect. But they had the potential to sin because they could also make free choices. And both made the wrong choices. God did not created robots.

I could not agree more!!

 

[kcmonseysr]

Both Lucifer and Adam were created perfect. But they had the potential to sin because they could also make free choices. And both made the wrong choices. God did not create(d) robots.

Amen!

 

[MisterD]

To answer this question, let us first discuss the meaning of 'perfect'. Does 'perfect' mean without sin? or does 'perfect' mean without the ability to sin? Secondly, if 'perfect' means 'without the ability to sin', does 'without ability' mean has no reference to sin, like a rock or a glass of water, or does it mean so holy that the person would never sin because they would never want to.

Thirdly, do we want do give a speculative, philosophical answer or a revelatory answer. Since we were not there or involved with the creation of Satan, (sometimes called Lucifer from KJV in Is. 14:12, which actually means morning star or day-star), we can either speculate or take the word of a person who was involved.

With regard to revelation, we are told about Satan in Ezekiel 28:15 (NAS) "You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, until unrighteousness was found in you." The KJV says "perfect" until "iniquity was found in you".

So there is your answer.

If we refuse to accept the revelation about Satan, we are then forced to speculation and philosophy.

To philosophize, can any creature be created perfect and then fall into or choose sin? If perfection includes the ability to sin, ie. the ability to choose other than God's good way, then YES. If perfection means the inability to choose to sin, then NO.

We now go deeper. Is perfection being not capable of sinning? or not wanting ever to sin? or not having sinned up until the time perfection is lost? God has promised to make the Christian perfect and has instructed us to be perfect. I believe that only in heaven will we be completely perfect because 'there' we will never want to sin and we will not have the compulsion to sin, but not because we will not have the theoretical ability to sin, although this view could be wrong since it is speculation. But I do not think that we will be puppets in heaven. We will be able to love by continually choosing to go his good way.

We probably should discuss where sin came or comes from. As far as I know there is no revelation answer to this question in the Scripture (although see James 4:1), so we are left to speculation and, horror of horrors, logic! Perhaps the best we can do is say that sin is insanity. Why do you sin? Have you ever said, "Why did I do that?" "I didn't want to do that." We sin because certain passions overwhelm our reason or we sin because of our ignorance. We make choices based on wrong realities that are constructed in our minds.

Why was Lucifer lifted up by pride? According to scripture, he was the anointing covering angel. So I think that he was the greatest created being. He looked around and saw the lesser angels and also saw God in the form that God appeared to him. He then made a big mistake. He assumed God was just a little brighter than him. He did not realize that God, who created him was infinitely greater than him, being the source of his 'Lucifer's' greatness. So he wanted to shine a little brighter and become like, that is, become God. He did not realize how great God is.

But our logic has limits. I must admit that I do not know why Satan took this path. Logic will come to the conclusion that it is God's fault that Lucifer sinned. But we know because of the cross of Christ and scripture that this cannot be true. So we must face the fact that there is some part of this analysis that we are missing, some fact that we do not know.

What do we know? God is good and does not create evil. Satan was created perfect yet became evil. Pride caused Satan to fall.

But we can only speculate why Satan became proud. We do not know. We can only ask, why do we become proud? If you can answer that, then you probably can answer why Satan became proud.

But don't blame God for our pride. That is not the reason. I think that you will find that you and I are proud because we reject God's revelation about ourselves and make a wrong judgment about ourselves. That is why I think Lucifer fell. He did not know everything and did not accept the word of the person who did know everything.

So here we are. We can take God's word for it or we can reject it. If we take God's word, we can become perfect. If we reject God's word, we can become like Satan and turn our backs on perfection.

"Without faith it is impossible to please God"

 

[LionDog1]

Eze 28:14- 16 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of G-d; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of G-d: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

 

[MisterD]

There is another question that perplexes me. There seems to be scriptural support for the idea that a third of the angels fell with Satan. Why did they follow him?

 

[Tree of Life]

Was Satan a perfect being before he rebelled? If so, how could he have? If not, why did God make an imperfect being?

"Perfect" is a very imprecise term and it's not often used in Scripture. What do you mean by perfect?

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

Can you explain what you mean by "perfect"? If you mean complete and wholly capable of what God made him for, then yes, he was perfect.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

There is another question that perplexes me. There seems to be scriptural support for the idea that a third of the angels fell with Satan. Why did they follow him?

"I repeat to you for the hundredth time, there is only one case, one only, when man may purposely, consciously wish for himself even the harmful, the stupid, even what is stupidest of all: namely, so as to have the right to wish for himself even what is stupidest of all and not be bound by an obligation to wish for himself only what is intelligent."

-Notes from Underground

 

[Breckmin]

Question: "Was Satan a perfect being before he rebelled?"

Perfect Yes. Complete? Finalized? No. The angels were
only complete after the fall where it is believed that 1/3rd
of the angels fell. This is when they observed and experienced
consequences which needed to be displayed. Lucifer was
blameless in his ways... until he corrupted himself through
his own creation. We are all little creators.

Question: "If so, how could he have?"

Freewill. Freewill is only one small part of the puzzle.
The answer is multifaceted and deals with many other
connected dynamics of what is logical/needed for eternity
(a perfect eternity). You can't isolate on freewill alone...
as far as an answer.... but freewill is a huge part of the
answer because it is connected/required for love, obedience
relationship, worship, etc.

Question: "If not, why did God make an imperfect being?"

God creates little creators in His (God's) universe whom God
does not directly "control" their actions. We are not puppets.
We are not robots. We are little creators who can create
evil (sin debt) which is our action(s).

Lucifer was a perfect being who had the ability to create
in God's universe. This self-generation (freewill) and
ability to create doesn't make us imperfect... it is our
own corruption (disobedience) that makes us morally
imperfect.

In a comprehensive theodicy even hell is perfect and
everyone is "perfect" in that they are perfectly meant
to be. However... here is a key point regarding the
word "perfect": There is a distinction between moral
perfection and perfection of existence itself for the
creature. If you miss this distinction...then you miss
the equivocation you are engaging in with the English
word "perfect" or "perfection."

Because of all of the dynamics involved (that are not
being addressed in concision here) it is easy to miss
how things are perfectly meant to be... even if they
are morally imperfect... or even temporarily physically
imperfect, etc. We have to qualify "how" they are
imperfect and distinguish that imperfection from how
it is perfect for "God to allow it" (allow its existence).

Those who are questioning the definition of "perfection"
are spot on here.

 

[1213]

Was Satan a perfect being before he rebelled? If so, how could he have? If not, why did God make an imperfect being?

Bible says only that everything was good in the beginning. It doesn’t say Satan was perfect, therefore I can’t say he was. However, good or perfect being obviously has ability to choose and for example reject God. I think it is good that God gave freedom.

 

[Kenny'sID]

, why did God make an imperfect being?

Same reason he made us.

As I've understood it, perfect means mature, or in the sense we are taking about, mature in Christ/God or matured in their ways.

Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Ready and willing to do all it takes when it comes to God.

 

[mmksparbud]

God did not make imperfection. Lucifer was fully and completely perfect in beauty, in ability, mature, in everything that he needed to be a perfect follower of God with a completely perfect freedom of will which he choose to exercise by dwelling, not on God, but on his own beauty, and ambition to be God. He fed his pride. His pride, in return, devoured him.

 

[DoubtfulSalvation]

I think the biggest and most important question here is how did Satan have a sinful nature swell up in him, while he was in a place where sin cannot exist (heaven)? Unless, he was simply doing God's will as he was told to do, as this would not be sin. We know this, because God operates outside of such things. So, I think I would like to hear the argument against that. It would be most interesting. It's better than all the other arguments that talk about how God knew Lucifer was going to fall before he made him etc etc.... Kinda almost makes God guilty for even creating him. Sort of like how it would be if I raised my kid to be a Muslim extremist and had it planned even before his birth. Nevertheless, I nurtured that idea and put a gun in his had at 2 and had him shouting Allah ackbar and death to the infidels until he blows himself up somewhere. If videos or any other evidence showed how a reared the child knowingly making him a devil (of sorts). There could be some serious problems there and maybe even some criminal charges if done in the US. But, like I said, those are all old arguments, but still no one has the answers. So, lets just keep believing and not give in to the incredibly worldy tradition of "critical thinking" or "common sense". Amen!