Was Satan once a good guy?

[verismo]

Those who think that it must be a different beginning spoken of in the Bible seem to be reasoning that God would not create something "evil." Honestly, I do not see how it follows that because God is good, He cannot create an evil being, though He can create a being that He knows will become evil. So perhaps someone who thinks this can explain?

What beginning in the Bible are you talking about?

God would not create a person, and then force that person to damn himself. This doesn't even take into account the fall yet. So I am not saying that He would choose not to save a person who is a product of the fall, Angels were not a fallen race. To do this with the Devil, He would have from the time before creating the Devil, have had in mind the idea to create a person that He would make oppose Him, then destroy that opposer. Not just let a sinner continue to be a sinner and stay fallen-as predestination believers claim happens with some of us, but really create a person TO BE an enemy.

EDIT: SO...since scripture doesn't lie, and it says "from the begining", we must as "of what", and I say of Earth makes the most sense, as in when he was in the garden with Adam and Eve. And I should add here that Gen 1:1 says "In the begining God created the heavens and the Earth"; this does not refer to the "Kingom of Heaven", but just to the sky. So this is not when Heaven and the Angles and all that were made into being.

 

[InnerPhyre]

Everything that God creates is good. He said so when He looked upon His creation.

 

[TSIBHOD]

Everything that God creates is good. He said so when He looked upon His creation.

We have to think about what we mean by "good." Sometimes, we do mean "morally good." Other times, we mean a different kind of good, as in, "This food is good," or "This is a good saw."

In the first instance, we mean that the food brings pleasure to our palate. If God's assessment of the creation means "good" in this way, then it would mean that it brought Him pleasure, presumably because it turned out the way He wanted it to. This would say nothing of whether it was "morally good."

In the second instance, we say a saw is good because it does what it was created for: it cuts wood. If Satan was created to "destroy," then he could be described as a "good satan" ("satan in Hebrew means "adversary"). It is possible that when God looked at Satan, already a sinner, He said, "He is a good adversary." If God wanted Satan to oppose His people so that His people could be strengthened by overcoming Satan, then Satan could be "good" for that purpose.

I think that these are possibilities, so that the Genesis account does not provide definitive evidence in either direction.

 

[HoT-MetaL]

TSIBHOD, your argument is based on assumptions because youre assuming what 'beginning' is.

Secondly, you ahvent answered my question. God is love, God is pure, and God is holy. How can he then created evil? Isnt that some-what blasphemous.

God Bless, metal.

 

[TSIBHOD]

Why could God not create evil? I do not say that God created the sin, but the sinner. Now, if it is impossible for a holy God to create a sinner, why is that? Is it because He cannot stand the presence of a sinner? If so, then how is it that He allows anyone to become a sinner without destroying that person?

I do not see how God is "holier" to only create people who will eventually sin, than those who sin immediately, or "from the beginning."

 

[HoT-MetaL]

GOd did not create a sinner. GOd created men and women with free-will. WE CHOOSE to sin.

God condemns sinners to hell. But on this Earth he gave us another chance, and that is Jesus Christ.

We were not designed to sin. We were designed to ahve a relationship with God. Pick up the bible and read it.


God Bless, metal.

 

[TSIBHOD]

God did not make us sinners from the beginning. But the argument here is that Satan was a murderer from the beginning. And I say that if God could not create Satan evil from the beginning, how can He create a Satan who will become evil 1 second after he is created? Or 30 seconds? Or 5 minutes? Or 5 hours? Or....

I think you see the point. If God would be unholy to create a being that was evil from the start, would He not be unholy to create a being that was evil at some later point?

In other words, I am saying that God is unholy in neither case, and that it is thus not a contradiction to say that God created Satan evil.

 

[verismo]

God did not make us sinners from the beginning. But the argument here is that Satan was a murderer from the beginning. And I say that if God could not create Satan evil from the beginning, how can He create a Satan who will become evil 1 second after he is created? Or 30 seconds? Or 5 minutes? Or 5 hours? Or....

I think you see the point. If God would be unholy to create a being that was evil from the start, would He not be unholy to create a being that was evil at some later point?

In other words, I am saying that God is unholy in neither case, and that it is thus not a contradiction to say that God created Satan evil.

Because all He did was give them free will. Foreknowledge is not predetermination. In the same way Jesus chose Judas knowing that he would betray Him.

 

[HoT-MetaL]

For a start, your still assuming beginnings. Flaw number1.

Secondly, Satan was never meant to become Evil... at any point in time. And since the concept of time isnt relevant in heaven, this makes Flaw numer2.

No, God would not be un-holy to create a creature that became evil, since it is clear that the creatures purpose was not to become evil. The creature chose to become evil. Flaw number3.

God Bless, metal.

 

[TSIBHOD]

My point is (please read carefully):

God is not unholy to create a being that He foreknows will be evil (Satan).
Therefore, I state that God is neither unholy if He did in fact create Satan evil from the start.

That does not prove that Satan was created evil, but that God could do that and it would not be any more against His nature than creating a being that would eventually become evil. If God can't stand an evil being, then He wouldn't create one that He knew would fall either.

On your first two points, I may be making assumptions (that Satan was created evil from his beginning, and that God meant for Satan to be evil), but if I am assuming, then you are likewise assuming the opposite.

 

[The One]

God is everything therefor the devil is god and so is evil. The devil works for me this i know because he was created an angel and they work for us too.

 

[verismo]

My point is (please read carefully):

God is not unholy to create a being that He foreknows will be evil (Satan).
Therefore, I state that God is neither unholy if He did in fact create Satan evil from the start.

There seems to be a jump in logic here to me perhaps. To create Satan evil from the start of Satan's life would not be foreknowlegde that Satan would become evil. If Satan started his life evil: he was created evil.

This is why I propose that "from the beginning" does not refer to the beginning of Satan's life, but tho the beginning of our (Earth's) timeline i.e. Eden.

 

[verismo]

God is everything therefor the devil is god and so is evil. The devil works for me this i know because he was created an angel and they work for us too.

Oh my.

 

[TSIBHOD]

There seems to be a jump in logic here to me perhaps. To create Satan evil from the start of Satan's life would not be foreknowlegde that Satan would become evil. If Satan started his life evil: he was created evil.

My point is that God could create Satan evil from the beginning, and this would not be an "unholy" thing for God to do.

This is why I propose that "from the beginning" does not refer to the beginning of Satan's life, but tho the beginning of our (Earth's) timeline i.e. Eden.

Look at the rest of John 8:44 though? Does it not say that Satan's nature is to lie? "When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own, for he is a liar, and the father of it." Satan's inherent nature is lying.

 

[Duggie]

[TSIBHOD]My point is that God could create Satan evil from the beginning, and this would not be an "unholy" thing for God to do.

Hi, with respect that logic doesn't add up. I find it difficult to believe that someone can suggest that God, who let us not forget is a) Love and b) Holy would create something that is evil. Satan was an angel, some go so far as to assume he was an archangel. It is abundantly clear that satan whilst in heaven, wanted more and his pride caused him to rebel against God. Now it was obviously an incredibly dumb thing to do because he must have realised God would ultimately defeat him and place him into judgement. This however didn't stop him and many other angels from rebelling. This would lead me to two conclusions: 1) Lucifer had free will and therefore chose to rebel against God and 2) When God created him he was originally good. Now it's not uncommon or indifferent of us to ask questions like why did God create something He knew would turn to sin? or why did God place the tree with the fruit on it in the garden in the first place. When it comes to man I can see why God allowed satan to tempt us, He gave us free will to choose good or evil. Perhaps God gave Lucifer that same free will He has given us. In order for Lucifer to rebel against God he must of had an understanding about good and evil and equally an opportunity to express that understanding by choosing the latter and thus turning against God.

Look at the rest of John 8:44 though? Does it not say that Satan's nature is to lie? "When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own, for he is a liar, and the father of it." Satan's inherent nature is lying

Satan wasn't created a liar. He became the father of liars when man had fallen and allowed him the opportunity to start attacking God's creation. Satan became evil and was not created evil, to suggest that God would create evil would be like saying God has evil intentions within Him. Is that what you are really suggesting? because I would suggest that is a dangerous thing to do.

 

[SPALATIN]

The popular Christian belief is that Satan was once a holy angel. However, if you read the Bible plainly, you find otherwise:

John 8:44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
1 John 3:8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Popular Christian belief: Satan was holy in the beginning.
Bible belief: Satan sinned from the beginning.

The easiest interpretation is that Satan was created as a murderer and sinner. I will first note that most of the time, when people argue against the plainest and easiest interpretation, it is just because they do not want to believe what the Bible really teaches.

Those arguing against the easy interpretation of these verses, however, seem to have only one approach. They say that the "beginning" is not, as would be readily assumed, Satan's beginning. It is rather, they say, the beginning of the human race, or the beginning of this planet (so that Satan was a holy angel before the earth was created), and so on. Since these things are not stated, it would seem that they think that Jesus and John are unable to express themselves clearly and need "mouthpieces" to tell us what they really meant. There is one interpretation, however, which is somewhat more subtle.

Thomas Aquinas states in Summa Theologica that Satan was a murderer, not from his own beginning, but from the beginning of his sin. In this case, Aquinas would make Jesus out to say: "Ever since Satan started sinning (that is, from the beginning of his sin), he has never stopped sinning. Once he started, he has been in continual sin." This could conceivably make sense.

There is still one problem, however. That is not what Jesus said. It is a quite unnatural sense for those words to mean that. If I wanted to say that someone had trouble remembering things ever since he hit his head, I suppose I could say that, "Ol' George has had memory problems from the beginning," meaning of course, that ever since Ol' George hit his head (the beginning of his memory problems), he has continually had those memory problems. This is far from the natural sense and meaning of my words, however. If I really wanted to say that, I should say, "Ol' George has had memory problems continually ever since he started having them."

If I said, "I've had brown hair from the beginning," under oath, most people would think I was guilty of perjury if I later clarified that I meant that I had had brown hair ever since I dyed it brown.

He created the Angels with two leaders Michael and Lucifer. Lucifer was the angel of Light. He was prideful because of the power that God had given him and tried to replace God. He was thrown out of heaven along with 1/3 of the Angels that followed his way. Angels are created beings and they were created for a purpose as messengers of God's word, but once they fall they have no hope of salvation. The word "Satan or Sa'tan is a hebrew word for adversary.

Scott

 

[@@Paul@@]

God is everything therefor the devil is god and so is evil. The devil works for me this i know because he was created an angel and they work for us too.

That is wacked...

I suppose god is everything therefore you are god???

It does not work like that my friend.

 

[HoT-MetaL]

God is everything therefor the devil is god and so is evil. The devil works for me this i know because he was created an angel and they work for us too.

Thats just.... wrong in so many ways.


TSBHOD... youre young. You'll have kids one day. Tell me what kind of a Father has a Child so that he may bring him up to do Evil? The answer... an evil father. God is not evil. Think LOGICALLY here.

God says that he will use even the worst of things for his Glory. This is the case with Satan. God is turning a bad event to his glory, thus why he allows the Devil to tempt us.

God Bless, metal.

 

[statrei]

Metal, the problem is not whether God could have created Lucifer to do evil. That is possible. The problem is in the justice of then holding him at fault for doing precisely what he was created to do. That would not be justice and the Bible insists that God is just. It is time for Christians to consider what their beliefs say about the God they claim to serve. We seem to be more interested in making a good argument than in getting to know the truth about the Creator.

 

[verismo]

My point is that God could create Satan evil from the beginning, and this would not be an "unholy" thing for God to do.

Well, ok, but it seemed that you were asserting that if God created Satan Evil from the beginning of Satan's existence, that would merely be God's foreknowledge of Satan's evil nature, and I assert that it is not merely foreknowledge, it is the active act of a creation of Evil. Of if Satan were created Holy could it be forknowledge of His current State.

Look at the rest of John 8:44 though? Does it not say that Satan's nature is to lie? "When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own, for he is a liar, and the father of it." Satan's inherent nature is lying.

Well, again, I think he is talking about our timeline, not eternity. He is the father of lying on Earth.