Honestly, this is going to be my very last post here in this thread, and possibly on this forum. Your arrogance has been outstanding in your posts, constantly calling everybody else wrong, and claiming that you have "studied further than others" in some of your responses. Your refusing to engage in an intellectual debate without resorting to some level of personal attack is incredible how anybody can take you seriously.
Before I go on this lengthy post to explain why you are wrong, I'm going to give you an olive branch. IF you actually want to have an intellectual discussion in regards to what the Catholic Church teaches as opposed to what you THINK it teaches, message me. If not and all you wish to do is slander, then keep fighting your losing battle.
Now onto my post. I am going to start off where you so deceivingly tried to diverge off topic in your response to me, and try to make a jab at the Catholic Church once again.
This comment:
Lets take a look here at your little assumption from what Paul has written here.
Paul says "all have sinned and come short...."
Now please, answer me this. Do babies sin? Do the mentally handicap who do not know right from wrong sin? Do the senile who are losing their memories and ability to function sin?
If you answered yes, what sin have they committed? What sin has a newborn baby committed? What sin has a mentally challenged person committed?
If you answered no, which is the correct answer, tell me then, is Paul wrong? Is the Bible wrong?
No, the Bible is not wrong, and neither is Paul. So this leave your assumption. Tell me, since Jesus was true man, did He sin? Because, going by your assumption for all have sinned, this means Jesus must have sinned as well.
Which, of course, is wrong. There are exceptions to what Paul is stating here, clearly. Mary, the mother of Jesus, falls under these exceptions. How do we know this?
Easy, look at the Bible. First, Mary is greeted by the Archangel Gabriel; Luke 1:26-38
Remember, angels are perfect and do not sin. So it is very strange for an angel to greet Mary like this. Now, the term full of grace, what does that mean?? Well, lets take a step back to the beginning to creation shall we?
Adam and Eve. They were made perfect, free of sin, and given free will. When they finally sinned, this is what is called the fall from grace. Which is interesting, because this means that originally, Adam and Ever were...in grace prior to their sinning.
Now, lets specifically look at this: Genesis 3:14-15
God tells the serpent I will place enmity between you
and the woman. Not both the woman and the man. Just the woman, and after how the serpent will strike at the heel of her offspring while he crushes it's head.
Now, this is a foretelling of Jesus Christ and the devil. Who is Jesus the offspring of? Mary.
This is the foretelling of Mary as the New Eve, and Jesus as the New Adam.
How do we know that Jesus is the New Adam? Lets look back at Paul who states such! Romans 5:14
Paul is connecting Adam to Jesus, as Adam was the father of the human race, Jesus is the father of the new redeemed race.
Also here: 1 Corinthians 15:21-22
Now, since Jesus is the New Adam, how is Mary the New Eve? Lets look back at the greeting from Gabriel.
Mary's response to him is "Here am I, the servant of the Lord; let it be with me according to your word." Mary obeyed God, while Eve
disobeyed.
It doesn't end there, Eve was all too eager to hear what the serpent said, Mary was troubled and hesitant by what God said. Eve felt worried afterwards by disobeying God, while Mary felt happiness for her obedience.
Many ECF, who your doctrine are built off of, agree on that Mary is the New Eve. As a virgin brought about death, a virgin brought new life.
Now, Mary is also considered the New Ark of the Covenant, and the similarities between her and the Ark are as numerous as her and Eve.
The Ark contained 3 things, as said in Hebrews 9:4, the Ark contained the Mana bread, the rod of Aaron, and the tablets of the 10 commandments.
The mana is bread from God, the rod is the rod of the highpriest, and the 10 commandments were the word of God.
Mary carried in her, THE Bread of Life Jesus, THE highpriest Jesus, and THE Word of God Jesus.
Lets look at the similarities between how David reacted to the Ark, and how Elizabeth reacted to Mary.
David: How can the ark of the Lord come into my care? 2 Samuel 6:9
Elizabeth: And why has this happened to me, that the mother of my Lord comes to me? Luke 1:43
The Ark "The ark of the Lord remained in the house of Obed-edom the Gittite three months;" 2 Samuel 6:11
Mary "And Mary remained with her about three months and then returned to her home." Luke 1:56
David: So David went and brought up the ark of God from the house of Obed-edom to the city of David with rejoicing; 2 Samuel 6:12
Elizabeth: For as soon as I heard the sound of your greeting, the child in my womb leaped for joy. Luke 1:44
Now, Mary is the New Eve, who is full of grace, as Eve and Adam were BEFORE they sinned and "fell from grace", and Mary is the New Ark of the Covenant. The final thing that I will use that points to Mary being sinless, is once again the new name that Gabriel bestowed upon Mary.
Notice that Gabriel does not call Mary by her name, but calls her Full of Grace. This is significant, because in greek (the language Luke wrote in) this translates to kecharitomene, which the literal translation is You who have been graced. Now, Luke is also stating "full" here, when added, translates to "you who have been filled with grace."
Why is that important? Tell me, if something is full, can you add anything else? Mary is filled with Grace from God. Can there be any room for sin in Mary, if she is already filled with God's grace? The answer is no, there is no room. And this is announced by Gabriel BEFORE Mary obeys God's commands.
Now naturally you, like many others, will point to Luke 1:47 to show that Mary needed a Savior, and therefore sinned. Because, if she was sinless, why would she need a Savior?
This logic of thinking is incorrect, because you are assuming that since Mary is rejoicing in her Savior, she must have sinned. It states this, nowhere. Mary needed a Savior, just like all of us, so that she can get to Heaven.
Prior to the death of Jesus, the Gates of Heaven were closed and none could enter. All of humankind needed a Savior to open up the Gates of Heaven so they could enter. This includes newborn babies, who as we established have not sinned, and the mentally challenged who also have not sinned. They still need a Savior, though they have not sinned.
Now that I have explained that in detail, let me move more onto the actual topic at hand.
Clearly then, you disagree with Peter, who was appointed among the Apostels to "tend to His sheep." and was given the keys to the kingdom of Heaven.
1 Peter 3:20-21, specifically this part. "were saved through water. 21 And baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you"
Noah and his family were saved through water. The fact that they were in the ark means nothing as it does not change the fact that they were saved through the flood water.
I never stated that sin was erased, as that is not the purpose of baptism. Baptism does not prevent you from ever sinning again. The mere fact that you tried to disprove me by using this shows your ignorance on the topic. Just because you have been baptized doesnt mean you wont lie, or swear, or cheat. It wont stop you from dishonoring your mother and father, or not loving your neighbor. Baptism washes away all your sin AT THAT POINT, making your soul clean.
The reason why water is used is because we were told to be Jesus himself.
John 3:5 is very clear. Now you tell me that water here means the word of God? I truly hope you dont mean the Bible, because then everybody who lived before the 4th century was then never baptized.
Water and Spirit is how God makes new life.
The very beginning of creation there was God (Spirit) and water: Genesis 1:1-8
Then, Noah and his family, along with the earth, is given new life through Water and Spirit (the dove) Genesis 8
Then, Moses leads the jews through the Red Sea, given them a new life free from slavery. Exodus 14
I understand that you will also point to the theif on the cross as evidence that we do not need water baptism. However, this is faulty logic as I will show you.
1) We never know if the theif on the cross was baptized prior to this event, as it was Jewish custom. So there are chances that the thief was already baptized prior to his confession to Jesus. But, we wont use this one here.
2) It was impossible for the thief to be baptized after he confessed to Jesus. He was nailed to a cross! So, he confessed to Jesus, and Jesus, who is God, promised him paradise.
Now, we as Christians are bound to follow the rules that Jesus has laid out to us, baptism being one of them. As Jesus says that nobody can enter Heaven without it. However, Jesus is God, and God is able to save anybody that He wishes. He, as the Lord of all creation, is the one who MAKES the rules that we as Christians follow, but that does not mean that Jesus has to save people according to those rules.
What happened to the thief was baptism of desire. He WANTED salvation, and yearned for it. However, it was IMPOSSIBLE for the thief to be baptized. Jesus, knowing this, granted the thief salvation. Now this is an EXCEPTION to the rule that us Christians must follow, which is to be Baptized by Water and Spirit.
You are misleading yourself if you believe that Water Baptism is not needed. Because 2000 years of theological understanding and enlightenment disagrees with you, and these are the same minds that you agree with when you state that God is a Trinity.
Irenaeus on the Trinity "The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: . . . one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our
salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all . . . '"
On Baptism "And dipped himself,' says [the Scripture], 'seven times in Jordan.' It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but it served as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: 'Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.'"
Origen on the Trinity "Moreover, nothing in the Trinity can be called greater or less, since the fountain of divinity alone contains all things by His word and reason, and by the Spirit of His mouth sanctifies all things which are worthy of sanctification . . ."
On Baptism "The Church received from the Apostles the tradition of giving Baptism even to infants. For the Apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of divine mysteries, knew that there is in everyone the innate stains of sins, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit."
Tertullian on the Trinity "We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation . . . [which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit."
On Baptism "When, however, the prescript is laid down that 'without baptism, salvation is attainable by none" (chiefly on the ground of that declaration of the Lord, who says, "Unless one be born of water, he hath not life.'"
Need I go on? The ECF are the ones who defined the doctrine that we as Chrisitans hold so dear. The Godhood of Jesus Christ (that Jesus is God) the humanness of Jesus Christ (That Jesus is human) and that Jesus Christ had two natures (Fully God and Fully Man), the Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit, 3 persons, 1 God) and the very Bible that you hold dear. They are the ones responsible for these doctrines that are not fully spelled out in Scripture, but inferred.
I find it funny that you agree and believe what they say in regards to the Trinity, and the Bible, but cannot agree with their beliefs on Baptism, on Mary, and more.
Now that my long post is complete, I am done. I doubt anybody shall fully read this, but I pray that you do.
My olive branch still stands.
Wolf_Says, out. Good day
