Was Peter Baptized?

[Thedictator]

Ephesians 5:26.............
God is sanctifying the church with the WATER OF THE WORD my friend. The cleanser is the Bible which is better than bleach. The Word of God will not only take out the dirty spots but it will help us to satay clean as we move through the filth of this world.

Water can not do that. The BLOOD of Jesus Christ is the only thing that can make a black hearted sinner white as snow.

The words: cleansing her by the washing with water through the word.

A few things here, The word cleansing has to do with making one holy. The word washing is the Greek word loutron, and it's meaning is a bath, water for washing, and baptism. The word Through is the Greek word en and it means among, inside, in which something operates.

What this is saying is the Word of God gives us the authority( or in which to operate) to baptize, and gives us the command from God to be baptize. It also states that in water baptism Jesus Christ also is doing the baptism. He is washing way our sins and making us holy.

 

[Thedictator]

John 3:5.............
IF "Born of water and of the Spirit" is a reference to water baptism, that would make this a very strange expression.

Jesus is talking about HOW a man could be born "FROM ABOVE" or better said "BORN AGAIN".

Do you really think, deep down in your heart that being wet in a dirty river or a swimming pool can do that. Do really think that is what God is saying?????????

No my brother, Jesus is NOT saying that at all. If you read John chapter TWO you will se that he is telling is that "Water" is symbolic of the "WORD OF GOD".

Romans 6:4........ "We to may live a new life" Paul said this after talking about baptism in verse 4
It is clear that the meaning of this statement was being Born Again. It is also clear that water means baptism.

 

[Thedictator]

In this particular matter, you don't believe what the Bible says. This is simply because the Bible is silent on the matter, as it is on innumerable matters.

For example, the Bible does not tell us how many heads John the Baptist actually possessed, although I would be quite hard pressed to find anyone who thinks John the Baptist actually had more than one head. The Bible does not tell us to communicate with other people using electronic technology, but there are some sincere Christians who believe it to be a serious sin to do so. Obviously, you are not one of those individuals, nor am I.

I'm sorry but the Bible is not silent on Baptism and salvation. The Bible is silent on whether or not Satan is Jesus brother. A lot of false doctrine can come out of silence in the Bible.

 

[Thedictator]

You are forcing the Scriptures to say what YOU want them to say instead of just accepting them as they are.

This is absolutely hilarious, all I have done is state The scriptures exactly what they say word for word, and all you have done is say why they don't really mean what they really say.

 

[Thedictator]

IF you are referring to being baptized into the Holy Spirit of God then YES I agree.
If you are talking about water baptism then NO I do not agree.

They are the same baptism, there is only one Baptism now. Ephesians 4:5

 

[Thedictator]

Wheter WE do it or another person does it to us.....that is still WORKS and we are not saved by ANYTHING we can do.

The work in Ephesians is ANYTHING.....ANYTHING we think that we can add to what Jesus did for us on the cross is wrong my friend.

Faith should not be understood as our qualifications for being chosen but as a gift from God which brought about new life. In other words, God saw that we were spiritually dead. We could not in any way contribute anything to our salvation or even a more sensitive spiritual heart. We were spiritually dead. God then gives us grace through faith. This is what this passage clearly teaches us.

He awakens us with His Spirit and enables us to see what we never saw before. Repentance is the first sign of this newly given faith. We have nothing to give Him. Faith is the next. Faith is something God gives us due to the new life that He makes us alive with. Without His work in us, we have not way to respond just as a dead person cannot respond to light or sound. With Him, we start to see and respond to Him and others. I, for example, was not at all aware of my sin until God helped me see. This seeing of my sin and deserving of hell was a result of the new faith that God brought to me.

The apostle says, “that not of yourselves.” Whether you think it is your upright character, the way you tried to please your parents, the many religious services you attended, the way you were baptized, the money you give, all piled up they contribute nothing to our salvation. If grace is grace, then it is because we do not deserve His kindness. Otherwise grace is no longer grace but something deserved.

I'm not adding anything, I can not add what God has already installed. You on the other hand are taking away from the plan of salvation that God has ordained from before the beginning of time.
You said that faith is something God gives us, well baptism is also something God gives us out of his grace. Faith is something we do (word) to be saved. Faith is a verb, it is action of thought.

 

[Thedictator]

Just a minor correction here. It was Peter who wrote that, not Paul. I Peter 3.

Sorry about that, my bad.

 

[Thedictator]

Have there been any other exceptions to this rule?

Yes

 

[bbbbbbb]

I'm sorry but the Bible is not silent on Baptism and salvation. The Bible is silent on whether or not Satan is Jesus brother. A lot of false doctrine can come out of silence in the Bible.

I must have misunderstood the post, which I assumed was addressing the OP. The Bible is quite silent regarding anything concerning whether or not Peter was baptized.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Yes

Pray tell, can you elaborate when these exceptions have taken place and the reasons for them? Thank you.

 

[Thedictator]

I must have misunderstood the post, which I assumed was addressing the OP. The Bible is quite silent regarding anything concerning whether or not Peter was baptized.

Agreed

 

[Fidelibus]

1).Some people are at a higher level of understanding.

So are you saying you have a "higher level of understanding" of Scripture than Thedictator or anyone else that disagrees with your understanding of scripture? And, is your understanding of Scripture subject to error?

2). Some people have studied a subject at a higher level of education in theological matters.

Oh....... you mean like the Catholic Church that has a two thousand year head start on you? Not to mention how The Catholic Church played a central if not exclusive role in the establishment and encouragement of the university system.

3). Common sense! God gives us common sense.

That still dosen't answer my question. How can it be said that the Holy Spirit personally guides you or anyone else in the interpretation of any certain bible passage, and one of you comes to one conclusion and other comes to contradictory conclusion? Clearly only one of you two must be in error, correct? So who would it be......you or the other person?

Common sense says that we do not spit into the wind.
Common sense says that we do not pull on Superman's cape.

Ah yes..... the lyrics to Jim Croce song, "You Don't Mess Around With Jim".

However, it's not "pull" on Supermans cape, it's tug on Superman's cape, and you left out "You don't pull the mask off that old Lone Ranger."

Think for a moment about Jesus telling the thief on the cross that TODAY he would be in Paradise with Him. Did they take that man down and baptize him and them put him back on the cross to die......or did Jesus lie????????

Catholic apologists Jimmy Akin explains it very well. Although, if you beleive to have a "higher level of understanding" or you beleived to have "studied this subject at a higher level of education in theological matters" then he......... you may disagree.

The Thief on the Cross and Baptism
Q: If, as Jesus says, we must be baptized in order to enter the kingdom of God (John 3:5Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)) then how could the thief on the cross (Luke 23:40-43Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)) be saved?

A: Several reasons:

The thief on the cross may have been baptized for all we know. A lot of people received baptism at the hands of the apostles (John 3:22-4:3Open in Logos Bible Software (if available) — note how this comes right on the heels of the conversation in which Jesus stressed the need for baptism).
The Christian age had not yet begun, thus Christian baptism was not yet required.
In any event the thief clearly had baptism of desire. He was willing to do whatever it took to align himself with Jesus and be saved; it was simply physical impossibility that prevented him from doing anything while on the cross.
Any one of these reasons, and especially the last two, are sufficient to show how the thief could have been saved.

It is somewhat amazing that people ever throw his up as an objection to Jesus’ teaching on the necessity of baptism. The Catholic Church has never considered this a problem since the answers are so obvious. Those anti-Catholics who try to use this to undermine Christ’s teachings on baptism reveal by citing this example that they have not thought through the issue sufficiently.

 

[Major1]

So are you saying you have a "higher level of understanding" of Scripture than Thedictator or anyone else that disagrees with your understanding of scripture? And, is your understanding of Scripture subject to error?



Oh....... you mean like the Catholic Church that has a two thousand year head start on you? Not to mention how The Catholic Church played a central if not exclusive role in the establishment and encouragement of the university system.



That still dosen't answer my question. How can it be said that the Holy Spirit personally guides you or anyone else in the interpretation of any certain bible passage, and one of you comes to one conclusion and other comes to contradictory conclusion? Clearly only one of you two must be in error, correct? So who would it be......you or the other person?




Ah yes..... the lyrics to Jim Croce song, "You Don't Mess Around With Jim".

However, it's not "pull" on Supermans cape, it's tug on Superman's cape, and you left out "You don't pull the mask off that old Lone Ranger."




Catholic apologists Jimmy Akin explains it very well. Although, if you beleive to have a "higher level of understanding" or you beleived to have "studied this subject at a higher level of education in theological matters" then he......... you may disagree.

Your response is EXACTLY what I knew you were looking for my friend.

The reason why I was so careful in responding to your question is because I knew you were wanting to find something that would allow you to be personal and deflect from the issue we are talking about.

Your whole theology was based on what you could illicit from me in order to use as leverage to promote your own line of thinking.

You do know that I have been doing this for a pretty long time now my friend and your line of reasoning was actually very easy to spot.

I have given you the best answer available and anything else I say to you will only be for your use in a personal attack. If you can not accept what I have said then so be it. I will not respond to this line of questioning as it has absolutely nothing to do with the subject of the thread.

 

[Major1]

I'm not adding anything, I can not add what God has already installed. You on the other hand are taking away from the plan of salvation that God has ordained from before the beginning of time.
You said that faith is something God gives us, well baptism is also something God gives us out of his grace. Faith is something we do (word) to be saved. Faith is a verb, it is action of thought.

Your premise and theology is foundational wrong therefore the rest of your theology reflects that error my friend.

Heb 12:2 says............
"...Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith".

And Rom 12:3 says............
" ... God has allotted to each a measure of faith.”

Do you not see that these two verses clearly tell us that faith is not something that we do or a presence of mind that we develop, but that faith is a gift from God.

Opposite of what you are saying is that God even gives us the faith to believe upon Christ so that we can be saved and Faith is NOT something we work up in our mind and heart. When you miss that Bible fact you will certainly miss most everything else which is evident in your misunderstood belief on water baptism being essential to our salvation.

Now I am not going to argue the rest of this thread with you on this. IF YOU think that you must be baptized in order to be saved then do so. That is your choice. However if you want to be Biblical you will then have to make a different choice. YOU will also have to remove those Bible verses from your Bible that tells us that we are saved by faith through grace and NOT of ourselves because we will brag on ourselves if we could.

Rom 10:17 says ..........
" ... faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of Christ."

So faith is a gift from God that we receive from the word of Christ, which in this dispensation we get from the Bible rather than from a burning bush. So in His time He will allot faith to us as needed from the word of the Bible.

In 2 Cor 10:15 we see that faith can grow, so as we study the Bible God can add to our faith.

 

[Major1]

They are the same baptism, there is only one Baptism now. Ephesians 4:5

Not so my friend!

"The water does not do anything except get you wet,".

"When you get baptized in the Holy Spirit, you get cleansed by God, and he will come into our hearts. Getting baptized means you're telling the whole world that God has come into your heart."

Acts 1:8 tells us that the apostles went to Samaria after hearing that the Samaritans had received the Word of God then in Acts 8:14-16 we see that...............

v. 14 “Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:”
v. 15 “Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:”
v.16 “(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)”
v.17 “Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.”

In v. 16.........
“baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus” is the same as “John’s baptism”. Very simply these could not be indwelled until after the resurrection. This is also proof that in this post resurrection era true salvation requires that one believe in Christ’s death, burial and resurrection in order to receive the Holy Spirit, not just in the name of Jesus Christ.

 

[Major1]

This is absolutely hilarious, all I have done is state The scriptures exactly what they say word for word, and all you have done is say why they don't really mean what they really say.

Really..............
you said, "They are the same baptism, there is only one Baptism now. Ephesians 4:5".

So where in that verse does it same that water baptism and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit are SAME THING?????

A careful study of the verses you used tell us that the subject is the "MODE" of baptism my friend and NOT that water and Spirit are the one baptism.

So my statement stand that yes, you are in fact ADDING what you want the Scriptures to say instead of accepting them as they are written.

 

[Major1]

That is completely false all Bible translators and most scholars state that because of the structure of Biblical Greek grammar that the context of the word "eis" can not be "Because of" Every Bible translation of the word is "for". Not one translation of the Hundreds of English Bibles has "because of" as their translation. This is just more false denominational teaching.

Some denominations have tried to use English grammar on the Greek texts to justify a false translation. Greek and English grammar are not the same.

Again, I hate to do this and I do not mean disrespect but I do not know where in the world you are getting your information from on Greek grammar.

You said "ALL Bible scholars". That is a really very false assumption my friend.

Allow me to say to you first, if you will notice that Peter does not speak of baptism only, but of both repentance and baptism. "Repent and let every one of you be baptized... for the forgiveness of sins..." (Acts 2:38).

So then if the argument places forgiveness before baptism, it also places forgiveness before repentance. In other words, a person should repent not to receive forgiveness, but because forgiveness has already taken place, and therefore repentance is not necessary to forgiveness.

This would make all the translators wrong who make Peter say, "Repent and return so that your sins may be blotted out" (Acts 3:19).

Are you still with me? Do you understand this correct theology???

If the argument is correct, then the translators are incorrect. They should make Peter say, “Repent and return because your sins have been be blotted out.”

Of course the translators are right and the argument wrong. No translators render either Acts 2:38 or Acts 3:19 so as to put repentance after forgiveness. Rather, they all put repentance before forgiveness, as a condition of forgiveness.

And if Peter has put repentance before forgiveness, that's where he has also put baptism, because he gave both repentance and baptism the same relationship to forgiveness viz "Repent and ...be baptized... for the forgiveness of sins..." (Acts 2:38).

 

[Major1]

The words: cleansing her by the washing with water through the word.

A few things here, The word cleansing has to do with making one holy. The word washing is the Greek word loutron, and it's meaning is a bath, water for washing, and baptism. The word Through is the Greek word en and it means among, inside, in which something operates.

What this is saying is the Word of God gives us the authority( or in which to operate) to baptize, and gives us the command from God to be baptize. It also states that in water baptism Jesus Christ also is doing the baptism. He is washing way our sins and making us holy.

OK. Now you are correct. That is exactly what I have been saying all along.

Ephesians 5:26 ..........."Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for it".

That is PAST tense. In the PRESENT tense He is sanctifying the church with the "Water of the Word of God".

The CLEANSER, which is the Bible is better than any soap or bleach or water. The Word of God will not only take out the soiled spots, it will keep us from getting any more spots on our spirit.

Yes, the Word of God gives the church the authority to baptize. That has never been in question my dear friend.

BUT the Bible does NOT say that WATER baptism washes away or sins and makes us holy.

Again, you are adding to the Bible what YOU want it to say. WATER Baptism does not wash away sin in any way.

Jesus made this clear when discussing the importance of baptism with a scholar named Nicodemus. John 3:3-8:..........
“’In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.’

‘How can a man be born when he is old?’ Nicodemus asked. ‘Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!’

Jesus answered, .............
‘I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, `You must be born again.' The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.’"

It is clear here that baptism doesn’t wash away sin, but is an outward declaration that we want to live with Jesus who is the only one who can forgive our sins. It cannot be intended that the external rite of baptism was sufficient to make you pure, but that it was an ordinance appointed by Jesus as a public expression of the washing away of sins, or of the purification of the heart.

Forgiveness of sins is obtained solely through faith in the Lord Jesus, Acts 10:43: ..........
”All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."

Baptism is the visible sign of this. Paul summarizes this beautifully in 1 Cor 6:11:........
“And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”

 

[Major1]

The words: cleansing her by the washing with water through the word.

A few things here, The word cleansing has to do with making one holy. The word washing is the Greek word loutron, and it's meaning is a bath, water for washing, and baptism. The word Through is the Greek word en and it means among, inside, in which something operates.

What this is saying is the Word of God gives us the authority( or in which to operate) to baptize, and gives us the command from God to be baptize. It also states that in water baptism Jesus Christ also is doing the baptism.
First you will notice that Peter does not speak of baptism only, but of both repentance and baptism. "Repent and let every one of you be baptized... for the forgiveness of sins..." (Acts 2:38).

If the argument places forgiveness before baptism, it also places forgiveness before repentance. In other words, a person should repent not to receive forgiveness, but because forgiveness has already taken place, and therefore repentance is not necessary to forgiveness.

This would make all the translators wrong who make Peter say, "Repent and return so that your sins may be blotted out" (Acts 3:19).

If the argument is correct, then the translators are incorrect. They should make Peter say, “Repent and return because your sins have been be blotted out.”

Of course the translators are right and the argument wrong. No translators render either Acts 2:38 or Acts 3:19 so as to put repentance after forgiveness. Rather, they all put repentance before forgiveness, as a condition of forgiveness.

And if Peter has put repentance before forgiveness, that's where he has also put baptism, because he gave both repentance and baptism the same relationship to forgiveness viz "Repent and ...be baptized... for the forgiveness of sins..." (Acts 2:38).

WHY be baptized then............"Because we are saved not to be saved".

 

[Wolf_Says]

"I" am confused.........LOL!

I am sorry my friend, no disrespect but that just struck me as very funny.

All of those comments are true. However it is very obvious that you are stretching the teaching of the Scriptures to make them say what you have been taught your whole life. Now if that is what you choose to do, fine with me.

I can not agree with you for many reasons. Noah and Moses were not born again through water.

Did you read comment #145?????? Noah's family was NOT washed in the flood......they were already in the Ark when the rains came.

The flood did not wash away evil. Where did you get that kind of theology???????

The flood killed all the people of the world except Noah and his family and when the flood receded evil was still here as Noah and his family were still sinners.

Romans 3:23............
"ALL have sinned and come short of the approval of God".

That includes Noah, his family, Moses, Joshua, Daniel and yes, Mary.

Honestly, this is going to be my very last post here in this thread, and possibly on this forum. Your arrogance has been outstanding in your posts, constantly calling everybody else wrong, and claiming that you have "studied further than others" in some of your responses. Your refusing to engage in an intellectual debate without resorting to some level of personal attack is incredible how anybody can take you seriously.

Before I go on this lengthy post to explain why you are wrong, I'm going to give you an olive branch. IF you actually want to have an intellectual discussion in regards to what the Catholic Church teaches as opposed to what you THINK it teaches, message me. If not and all you wish to do is slander, then keep fighting your losing battle.

Now onto my post. I am going to start off where you so deceivingly tried to diverge off topic in your response to me, and try to make a jab at the Catholic Church once again.

This comment:

Romans 3:23............
"ALL have sinned and come short of the approval of God".

That includes Noah, his family, Moses, Joshua, Daniel and yes, Mary.

Lets take a look here at your little assumption from what Paul has written here.

Paul says "all have sinned and come short...."

Now please, answer me this. Do babies sin? Do the mentally handicap who do not know right from wrong sin? Do the senile who are losing their memories and ability to function sin?

If you answered yes, what sin have they committed? What sin has a newborn baby committed? What sin has a mentally challenged person committed?

If you answered no, which is the correct answer, tell me then, is Paul wrong? Is the Bible wrong?

No, the Bible is not wrong, and neither is Paul. So this leave your assumption. Tell me, since Jesus was true man, did He sin? Because, going by your assumption for all have sinned, this means Jesus must have sinned as well.

Which, of course, is wrong. There are exceptions to what Paul is stating here, clearly. Mary, the mother of Jesus, falls under these exceptions. How do we know this?

Easy, look at the Bible. First, Mary is greeted by the Archangel Gabriel; Luke 1:26-38

Remember, angels are perfect and do not sin. So it is very strange for an angel to greet Mary like this. Now, the term full of grace, what does that mean?? Well, lets take a step back to the beginning to creation shall we?

Adam and Eve. They were made perfect, free of sin, and given free will. When they finally sinned, this is what is called the fall from grace. Which is interesting, because this means that originally, Adam and Ever were...in grace prior to their sinning.

Now, lets specifically look at this: Genesis 3:14-15

God tells the serpent I will place enmity between you and the woman. Not both the woman and the man. Just the woman, and after how the serpent will strike at the heel of her offspring while he crushes it's head.

Now, this is a foretelling of Jesus Christ and the devil. Who is Jesus the offspring of? Mary.

This is the foretelling of Mary as the New Eve, and Jesus as the New Adam.

How do we know that Jesus is the New Adam? Lets look back at Paul who states such! Romans 5:14

Paul is connecting Adam to Jesus, as Adam was the father of the human race, Jesus is the father of the new redeemed race.

Also here: 1 Corinthians 15:21-22

Now, since Jesus is the New Adam, how is Mary the New Eve? Lets look back at the greeting from Gabriel.

Mary's response to him is "Here am I, the servant of the Lord; let it be with me according to your word." Mary obeyed God, while Eve disobeyed.

It doesn't end there, Eve was all too eager to hear what the serpent said, Mary was troubled and hesitant by what God said. Eve felt worried afterwards by disobeying God, while Mary felt happiness for her obedience.

Many ECF, who your doctrine are built off of, agree on that Mary is the New Eve. As a virgin brought about death, a virgin brought new life.

Now, Mary is also considered the New Ark of the Covenant, and the similarities between her and the Ark are as numerous as her and Eve.

The Ark contained 3 things, as said in Hebrews 9:4, the Ark contained the Mana bread, the rod of Aaron, and the tablets of the 10 commandments.

The mana is bread from God, the rod is the rod of the highpriest, and the 10 commandments were the word of God.

Mary carried in her, THE Bread of Life Jesus, THE highpriest Jesus, and THE Word of God Jesus.
Lets look at the similarities between how David reacted to the Ark, and how Elizabeth reacted to Mary.

David: How can the ark of the Lord come into my care? 2 Samuel 6:9
Elizabeth: And why has this happened to me, that the mother of my Lord comes to me? Luke 1:43

The Ark "The ark of the Lord remained in the house of Obed-edom the Gittite three months;" 2 Samuel 6:11

Mary "And Mary remained with her about three months and then returned to her home." Luke 1:56

David: So David went and brought up the ark of God from the house of Obed-edom to the city of David with rejoicing; 2 Samuel 6:12
Elizabeth: For as soon as I heard the sound of your greeting, the child in my womb leaped for joy. Luke 1:44

Now, Mary is the New Eve, who is full of grace, as Eve and Adam were BEFORE they sinned and "fell from grace", and Mary is the New Ark of the Covenant. The final thing that I will use that points to Mary being sinless, is once again the new name that Gabriel bestowed upon Mary.

Notice that Gabriel does not call Mary by her name, but calls her Full of Grace. This is significant, because in greek (the language Luke wrote in) this translates to kecharitomene, which the literal translation is You who have been graced. Now, Luke is also stating "full" here, when added, translates to "you who have been filled with grace."

Why is that important? Tell me, if something is full, can you add anything else? Mary is filled with Grace from God. Can there be any room for sin in Mary, if she is already filled with God's grace? The answer is no, there is no room. And this is announced by Gabriel BEFORE Mary obeys God's commands.

Now naturally you, like many others, will point to Luke 1:47 to show that Mary needed a Savior, and therefore sinned. Because, if she was sinless, why would she need a Savior?

This logic of thinking is incorrect, because you are assuming that since Mary is rejoicing in her Savior, she must have sinned. It states this, nowhere. Mary needed a Savior, just like all of us, so that she can get to Heaven.

Prior to the death of Jesus, the Gates of Heaven were closed and none could enter. All of humankind needed a Savior to open up the Gates of Heaven so they could enter. This includes newborn babies, who as we established have not sinned, and the mentally challenged who also have not sinned. They still need a Savior, though they have not sinned.

Now that I have explained that in detail, let me move more onto the actual topic at hand.

Noah and Moses were not born again through water.

Did you read comment #145?????? Noah's family was NOT washed in the flood......they were already in the Ark when the rains came.

Clearly then, you disagree with Peter, who was appointed among the Apostels to "tend to His sheep." and was given the keys to the kingdom of Heaven.

1 Peter 3:20-21, specifically this part. "were saved through water. 21 And baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you"

Noah and his family were saved through water. The fact that they were in the ark means nothing as it does not change the fact that they were saved through the flood water.

I never stated that sin was erased, as that is not the purpose of baptism. Baptism does not prevent you from ever sinning again. The mere fact that you tried to disprove me by using this shows your ignorance on the topic. Just because you have been baptized doesnt mean you wont lie, or swear, or cheat. It wont stop you from dishonoring your mother and father, or not loving your neighbor. Baptism washes away all your sin AT THAT POINT, making your soul clean.

The reason why water is used is because we were told to be Jesus himself.

John 3:5 is very clear. Now you tell me that water here means the word of God? I truly hope you dont mean the Bible, because then everybody who lived before the 4th century was then never baptized.

Water and Spirit is how God makes new life.

The very beginning of creation there was God (Spirit) and water: Genesis 1:1-8

Then, Noah and his family, along with the earth, is given new life through Water and Spirit (the dove) Genesis 8

Then, Moses leads the jews through the Red Sea, given them a new life free from slavery. Exodus 14

I understand that you will also point to the theif on the cross as evidence that we do not need water baptism. However, this is faulty logic as I will show you.

1) We never know if the theif on the cross was baptized prior to this event, as it was Jewish custom. So there are chances that the thief was already baptized prior to his confession to Jesus. But, we wont use this one here.

2) It was impossible for the thief to be baptized after he confessed to Jesus. He was nailed to a cross! So, he confessed to Jesus, and Jesus, who is God, promised him paradise.

Now, we as Christians are bound to follow the rules that Jesus has laid out to us, baptism being one of them. As Jesus says that nobody can enter Heaven without it. However, Jesus is God, and God is able to save anybody that He wishes. He, as the Lord of all creation, is the one who MAKES the rules that we as Christians follow, but that does not mean that Jesus has to save people according to those rules.

What happened to the thief was baptism of desire. He WANTED salvation, and yearned for it. However, it was IMPOSSIBLE for the thief to be baptized. Jesus, knowing this, granted the thief salvation. Now this is an EXCEPTION to the rule that us Christians must follow, which is to be Baptized by Water and Spirit.

You are misleading yourself if you believe that Water Baptism is not needed. Because 2000 years of theological understanding and enlightenment disagrees with you, and these are the same minds that you agree with when you state that God is a Trinity.

Irenaeus on the Trinity "The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: . . . one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all . . . '"
On Baptism "And dipped himself,' says [the Scripture], 'seven times in Jordan.' It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but it served as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: 'Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.'"

Origen on the Trinity "Moreover, nothing in the Trinity can be called greater or less, since the fountain of divinity alone contains all things by His word and reason, and by the Spirit of His mouth sanctifies all things which are worthy of sanctification . . ."
On Baptism "The Church received from the Apostles the tradition of giving Baptism even to infants. For the Apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of divine mysteries, knew that there is in everyone the innate stains of sins, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit."

Tertullian on the Trinity "We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation . . . [which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit."
On Baptism "When, however, the prescript is laid down that 'without baptism, salvation is attainable by none" (chiefly on the ground of that declaration of the Lord, who says, "Unless one be born of water, he hath not life.'"

Need I go on? The ECF are the ones who defined the doctrine that we as Chrisitans hold so dear. The Godhood of Jesus Christ (that Jesus is God) the humanness of Jesus Christ (That Jesus is human) and that Jesus Christ had two natures (Fully God and Fully Man), the Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit, 3 persons, 1 God) and the very Bible that you hold dear. They are the ones responsible for these doctrines that are not fully spelled out in Scripture, but inferred.

I find it funny that you agree and believe what they say in regards to the Trinity, and the Bible, but cannot agree with their beliefs on Baptism, on Mary, and more.

Now that my long post is complete, I am done. I doubt anybody shall fully read this, but I pray that you do.

My olive branch still stands.

Wolf_Says, out. Good day