Do you know why it was moved?I really didnt want this moved to a dead area of the forum...
Do you know what "Hamartiology" is? 
angelmom
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Was our sinful nature planned?
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Do you know what "Hamartiology" is? angelmom
GraceLikeRainFallsDown
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Since we cannot know the answer to this one. Only God knows. Here is my speculation . . .
Since God gave us free will, he knew that that would lead to sin. ( Face it if you give us humans a choice, we rarely do it right
)So, since free will was His plan for us, sin was part of that plan. At a minimum, it was a known consequence at the time he created humans. So, he had to allow for sin in the plan which meant we needed a Savior to make our relationship right with him.
To say that it was not part of the plan implies that God messed up. I hope we can all at least agree that God knows what He is doing and does not make mistakes.
This is just my opinion.
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GraceLikeRainFallsDown
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Do you know why it was moved?
angelmom
I had never heard of it. I looked it up in the dictionary and it was not even in there. This is the definition from Wikipedia
Hamartiology (Greek: ???????, hamartia, "missing the mark," "sin," + ?????, logia, "sayings" or "discourse") is the branch of Christian theology, more specifically, systematic theology, which is the study of sin with a view to articulating a doctrine of it.
I guess I learned my one new thing today.
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I had never heard of it. I looked it up in the dictionary and it was not even in there. This is the definition from Wikipedia
Hamartiology (Greek: ???????, hamartia, "missing the mark," "sin," + ?????, logia, "sayings" or "discourse") is the branch of Christian theology, more specifically, systematic theology, which is the study of sin with a view to articulating a doctrine of it.
I guess I learned my one new thing today.
ME TOO!!
Guess I can call it a day.
Can't keep all these "isms" and "ologies" straight.
thanks!
angelmom
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Do you know why it was moved?
angelmom
I know exactly what it is. It has nothing to do with knowing the definition, thank you very much.
I'd rather talk about this in GT where there is more traffic. This forum has none.
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IamAdopted
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I don't think God planned for men to sin.. I think He foreknew man would sin but created Him anyway to have fellowship. Have for knowledge and planning are two different things to me..This speaks volumes of Gods love for us. Even though He knew men would sin He made a way for us to still have fellowship with Him for all eternity.. Him our creator and us His creation.. His love for us is volumes... Nothing can seperate us from the Love of God in Christ Jesus.. So no I don't think God planned for man to sin.. But He did know he would..
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Benedicta00
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no one is saying that- Jesus was always plan A.
He was always going to come incarnate so that we could share God's life of divine grace with Him, In him and through Him by the power of the Holy Spirit and sin did not change that.
Jesus came incarnate to gather us all up as one, but because of sin, he came to gather what sin scattered, so he came as savior.
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Though God perhaps would have desired that the human race stay in relationship with him in the Garden of Eden without the fall, he knew full well that free choice would result in us turning away. Thus he had planned from the very beginning for Jesus to reconcile us back to him.
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Benedicta00
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I don't think free will was the culprit, I think we would have chosen to obey God fine if the devil had not tempted us.
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GraceLikeRainFallsDown
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Without the option to chose the wrong path, we could not have strayed. God gave us that option through free will.
(The devil did not help the situation
)Let's not forget that God created Satan and knew how that would turn out as well.
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Anyone ever consider that "satan" is the carnal mind, the sin that dwells "in the flesh"... and not some spirit/demon/etc external to us?
angelmom
angelmom
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holyrokker
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2 Peter 3:9 says that God "...is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."
Can anyone truly claim that it was God's plan that mankind would sin, thereby sentencing untold billions to eternal damnation?
In Matthew 19 Jesus mentions that God's plan for marriage was a life-long commitment, but he allowed for divorce due to hard-heartedness.
Just because something happens doesn't mean it was God's will for it to happen.
Can anyone truly claim that it was God's plan that mankind would sin, thereby sentencing untold billions to eternal damnation?
In Matthew 19 Jesus mentions that God's plan for marriage was a life-long commitment, but he allowed for divorce due to hard-heartedness.
Just because something happens doesn't mean it was God's will for it to happen.
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Is it God's will for us to know good and evil?
It seems to me that God's own words prove that that is one of the things that makes us like Him (he said: "man ~is become as one of us~ to know good and evil")
So how about the idea that maybe it ~was~ God's will that we know good and evil (and that is why he put us in this flesh and made us subject to vanity ~unwillingly~ subjecting the same ~in hope~)?
Not because it is His will that we continue in the sin that he knew would result, but that it was His will that we aquire that knowledge/experience?
And because of the sin that He knew would result, He also prepared a way for us to be redeemed from it(by preparing a sacrificial Lamb from the very foundation of the world to save us from the condition that He put us in order that we would obtain that knowledge)?
God's ultimate will is to create man in His image and after His likeness. Seems to me that it is a process and one that requires certain knowledge and who is man to "protest" to ~the way~ god chose to do that? God Himself says we can't; the Potter had control over the clay.
Rom 9:20-24 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall ~the thing formed~ say to him ~that formed~ it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not ~THE POTTER~ power over ~THE CLAY~, of the ~same lump~ to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering ~the vessels of wrath~ fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on ~the vessels of mercy~, which he had ~AFORE PREPARED~ unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
angelmom
It seems to me that God's own words prove that that is one of the things that makes us like Him (he said: "man ~is become as one of us~ to know good and evil")
So how about the idea that maybe it ~was~ God's will that we know good and evil (and that is why he put us in this flesh and made us subject to vanity ~unwillingly~ subjecting the same ~in hope~)?
Not because it is His will that we continue in the sin that he knew would result, but that it was His will that we aquire that knowledge/experience?
And because of the sin that He knew would result, He also prepared a way for us to be redeemed from it(by preparing a sacrificial Lamb from the very foundation of the world to save us from the condition that He put us in order that we would obtain that knowledge)?
God's ultimate will is to create man in His image and after His likeness. Seems to me that it is a process and one that requires certain knowledge and who is man to "protest" to ~the way~ god chose to do that? God Himself says we can't; the Potter had control over the clay.
Rom 9:20-24 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall ~the thing formed~ say to him ~that formed~ it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not ~THE POTTER~ power over ~THE CLAY~, of the ~same lump~ to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering ~the vessels of wrath~ fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on ~the vessels of mercy~, which he had ~AFORE PREPARED~ unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
angelmom
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So you dont believe that the devil is real?
Thats the greatest trick he ever played on this world.
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not real? is the flesh "not real"? is the carnal mind "not real"?
I asked if anyone has ever considered it? I guess you haven't.
angelmom
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I have considered this. My feeling based on scripture (things such as Jesus sending out demon's etc.) is that their is a Devil. But like God wants us to freely choose him, Satan wants to freely not choose God. He doesn't plant the desire to do evil in our heart, he merely shows us the opportunity to give into the evil that exists in our own heart.
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Deren
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As pointed out elsewhere in refuting the notion that God cannot exist with the presence of evil in the world, God merely created the potential for evil to exist, but it was humanity that actualized evil through its rebellion against God. In other words, potential evil is not the same thing as actual evil.
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Satan is a fallen angel that roams this earth looking for those that he can devour. Go on believing whatever lies you care to. I'll stick with what the bible tells me.
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Our nature is completly up to us, to make it what we will. Would you say Lucifer's evil nature was planned? No, he was the Angel of light, one of the higest ranked too. Look at him now. We where given choice, to make choice, to choose a side. It is up to us completly to make our nature. With our deeds we do that, a person who does evil gets used to it, and then it is almost impossible for him to change. Its all our choice.
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