Was Judas Iscariot saved?

Roz said:

It seems to me that you are still saying that God created imperfect people, people vulnerable to temptation and straying.......and then decided to torture them forever in fire due to that straying.

What kind of God would do that?


Tradition. Go figure.

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Note that the criticism is of men rather than God.

No profanity.

No heresy.

No disparaging of God........just criticism of men who created a God that worked with their bad habits.

I'd appreciate it if you people would read a little more carefully and comprehend a little better before making such charges and false accusations.

Thank you.

Rocinante said:

Gosh, so God doesn't have to force them? They just voluntarily skip into the fire?...................Tradition. Go figure.

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I'm disappointed in you Roz..going over very old ground here.

This kind of feeling of having betrayed someone so dear;... say a wife that we have betrayed by having an affair with someone behind her back.......and then having to confront the pain to your wife - your children - your family and friends, and being forgiven by this woman who has given her life for you - carried your children - and loved you more than you can imagine or conceive...and you are not going to have any guilt - remorse - or feel bad about your wrongdoings!!

I think not Roz.

I still have remorse about the people I hurt when I was a teenager and didn't realise my actions were so hurtful and damaging.

While this is not regarded as sinful ( I didn't realise what I was doing!) my remorse and pain is what we are saying is "the type of" remorse we will have when we come face to face with God.

David

angeljan said:

Heather,


The Worse false doctrine ever devised by satan is the Once saved always saved doctrine. Your hypothosis or example, above does not explain if this person with Faith produced good fruits and remained steadfast in faith. Did he follow the requirements of our God.? Did that person have a True changed Heart. Angel

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Angel... there is much to learn. Simply grabbing passages out of the context of the entire Bible, and ignoring those which say what you claim is impossible, is an old snare.

You must realize several things. One. You are saved by grace and faith. Not works. Works can not save. Yet, you just stated that works will save.

Two. There is a twofold aspect to salvation. The other is that once you are saved, what you choose will either produce works of righteousness, or deeds of the flesh. The flesh can appear to be very good and nice by human standards. But, only what is enabled and enpowered by the Holy Spirit will be honored by God. We either produce wood, hay, or stubble (deeds done in the energy of the flesh) or gold, silver, or precious stones (righteous actions , deeds, or righteous problem solving).

Now, once we are saved from Hell we are saved for ever. BUT! After we are saved, there is no guarantee that our choices will please God. Not everyone saved will reign with Christ. That is a kingdom issue. Only those who are faithful will rule nations with Christ. Those who do not, will be saved, but will have nothing to show for having glorified Christ during their salvation. Here's the reason...

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 niv

" If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. "

Read the last verse again?

" If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. "

This one will be saved, but will have NOTHING to show for what he did while saved. He will be saved as a man running from a burning house. All rewards will be lost. He did NOTHING to please God after he was saved. Yet, he remains SAVED!

Okay. This person fell from grace. This person refused to be a hearer of God's Word. This person lived according to human viewpoint. He did nothing to please God. Yet he believed in Christ.

"...he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. "


What you have been expressing is a common error. One based upon seeing God as a super human being, not God. God's justice is complete and beyond what man can do. That is why we must become transformed in our thinking, not transform God to ours. God has no acceptions. It must agree with all the Word, not just parts. If it is in conflict, then we must continue to seek an answer that will stabilize our souls. We are saved from Hell once we believe in Jesus Christ. We are not saved by works. After we are saved, grace must produce works in us (gold, silver, precious stones), If not, our works will be void of grace and be dead (wood, hay, and stubble). Wood, hay, and stubble is produced by those who have fallen from grace. They decide that they will try and please God in the energy of their flesh.

They can be very nice people and do many nice things. Or, they can return to being very bad.

God wants transformation. If he has grace do its work in us, then living deeds will follow. Dead works is one following a script. Producing it because you are told to = law. It is what those backslidden often times will
attempt to do to please God. Anything not of grace and faith, can not please God. Yet, many are religious and perform rituals and such. These can not please God. Yet, if they believe Jesus died for their sins, these same ones are saved. Saved as a man running from a burning house. Only thing saved is his soul. All rewards in Heaven will be lost.

Grace and peace, Gene

genez said:

You must realize several things. One. You are saved by grace and faith. Not works. Works can not save. Yet, you just stated that works will save.

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she did not state that. read it again

I haven't read all 21 pages of posts, so forgive me if this has been said before.

But it appears that there is a question of being saved once and forever - that after we give our heart to Christ, we no longer need to fear hell. That idea leads further into the idea that "works" really don't matter at all.

To quote a famous German martyr, whose last name I cannot hope to spell correctly (boenhoffer?):

"Those who believe obey, and those who obey believe."

An old argument - that Faith and Works are inseparable. But I think its a good one. It sheds light on the "once saved, always saved" theology. I guess if we had enough Faith to be saved (however much that was), than our life would conform to that Faith. If we don't have enough Faith to be saved, than our life would conform to that Faith as well - an impartial and incomplete and ultimately irrelevant Faith.

I don't know how long ago people stopped talking about Judas, but in his case, it seems like his Faith could be called into question on two counts. First (and obviously) is the betrayal. Then (and finally), is his suicide. Both reject Life itself. Both reject the very gift of God Himself.

To say that we are saved once and always is to reject the choice and will of the human soul. It is a sort of doctrine that makes Judas incapable of saving himself, that makes him merely a pawn in a cosmic game of salvation.

If once saved always saved, if Judas is dining in heaven, and if works have nothing to do with Faith,

Then Hell is a joke.

Perhaps... perhaps.

Sometimes I hope so.

Perhaps there is a Hell....
But if we are lucky,
No one has ever been there.

geocajun said:

she did not state that. read it again

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Read it again, too. What she spoke of implied works and actions. If not, show me where it does not imply that?


To call (like she did) the Once Saved Always Saved teaching, as being the worst false doctrine created by Satan (Jimmy Swaggart used almost the same exact words before his great fall) is to imply we do something to stay saved. Once you are saved, you are saved. Once you are saved, you enter into a new dimension. A spiritual life that requires new requirements. If you fail miserably to live by those requirements you are still saved. But, you will have nothing to show for your salvation. No rewards.

Grace and peace, Gene

eclipsoul said:

"Those who believe obey, and those who obey believe."

An old argument - that Faith and Works are inseparable. But I think its a good one. It sheds light on the "once saved, always saved" theology. I guess if we had enough Faith to be saved (however much that was), than our life would conform to that Faith. If we don't have enough Faith to be saved, than our life would conform to that Faith as well - an impartial and incomplete and ultimately irrelevant Faith.

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Did you read what I quoted from 1 Corinthians 3? Rather than just sit there and rationalize from human viewpoint? Subjective thinking appeals to us because it simplifies God, and makes him much easier to understand. Yet, we end up not really understanding God, but only a god who is more like us and easier to identify with. Now, if you would. Please read again what I quoted from 1 Corinthians 3?

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 niv

" If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and Ithe fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. "

Read the last verse again?

" If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. "

This one will be saved, but will have NOTHING to show for what he did while saved. He will be saved as a man running from a burning house. All rewards will be lost. He did NOTHING to please God after he was saved. Yet, he remains SAVED!

This believer fell from grace. This person refused to be a hearer of God's Word. This person lived according to human viewpoint. He did nothing to please God, except getting saved. He believed in Christ.

"...he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. "

We are saved from Hell once we believe in Jesus Christ. We are not saved by works. After we are saved, grace must produce works in us (gold, silver, precious stones), If not, our works will be void of grace and be dead (wood, hay, and stubble). Wood, hay, and stubble are produced by those who have fallen from grace. They decide that they will try and please God in the energy of their flesh. According to their own understanding...

If anyone believes Jesus died for his sins, this same one (who produced wood, hay, or stubble) will be saved. The Bible says he is! Yet, saved as a man running from a burning house. Only thing saved is his soul. All rewards in Heaven will be lost.
1 Corinthians 3:12-15 niv

" If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and Ithe fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. "



Grace and peace, Gene

I've always have assumed that Judas went to Hell because he betrayed Christ, but then I saw Gibson's Passion which made me rethink my stance.

OTHO, Christ describes Judas as being the son of perdition:

John 17:12
While I was with them, I kept them in thy name, which thou hast given me; I have guarded them, and none of them is lost but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled.




Given that Scripture, and the lack of ones saying that Judas repented, I believe that he is in Hell.

JMO,
Diane

genez said:

Read it again, too. What she spoke of implied works and actions. If not, show me where it does not imply that?


To call (like she did) the Once Saved Always Saved teaching, as being the worst false doctrine created by Satan

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the reason one would say that is because the tempter (satan) fools people with the one saved always saved doctrine "So what if you fell into adultery! you're saved brutha!"

Judas was doomed to hell the only one mentioned that way in the bible.

Pastor_Benjamin said:

Judas was doomed to hell the only one mentioned that way in the bible.

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I actually do not remember Judas having been condemned to hell in the Bible. I do remember it saying that it would have been better if he had not been born. However, look at Judas's reaction when he realized what he had done. His terror and torment of himself for the blood he had sold out for money led him to take his own life in anger at his actions. Does not Jesus teach us to not only forgive our enemies but to love them. Why can you not accept that Jesus too loved Judas?

Judas was truly regretful of that mistake, and if in recognizing our own sin and condemning it ourselves we are not forgiven, then I fail to see how any of us might ever see beyond the Earth, as the second death is not a physical or even a psychological hell. The second death is merely the death of every aspect of you that wasn't good, with only the good aspects proceeding to heaven. Somebody who in almost every aspect was terrible would retain very little of his spirit in the eternal life, and somebody who lacked a single aspect of good would be snuffed from existence. At least that is what my questioning as of recent has led me to speculate.

"Why can you not accept that Jesus too loved Judas?"

Jesus loved everyone, including Judas. However, our salvation is not based on Jesus's love for us, its based on IF we accept it.

Judas was guity, thats why he killed himself. If he was sorry , it would have led to repentance (which is not taking your own life!). We will not see Judas in heaven!!



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