Was Jesus God or the Son of God?

[JesusServant]

I would like to discuss the theology regarding the deity of Jesus.  He is referred to as the Son of God in 74 verses of scripture.  I myself believe that He had the authority of the Father on earth and now as He lives He has absolute authority of heaven and earth and He definitely earned it.

There are some scriptures, however, that may be interpreted as to Jesus being God Himself in the flesh, although there isn't any quotes that Jesus Himself claimed to be God.

 (John 8:56) Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad.(John 8:57) Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?(John 8:58) Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.

Now this can be interpreted as Jesus saying He is the great I AM, or it could be interpreted as John, "the one whom Jesus loved", as the Word of God in the flesh.  When I read I AM I look at it (and this is just my opinion) as the Word of God.  The fact that God says He is is His word and unshakable, He is because He says He is.  This leads us to other passages that people use to mathematically figure that Jesus was God.

 (John 1:1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.(John 1:2) The same was in the beginning with God.(John 1:3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.(John 1:4) In him was life; and the life was the light of men.(John 1:5) And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Now I've known people to say... "the Word was God, and Jesus was the Word in the flesh, so he was God in the flesh."  But John never makes this clear conclusion in his writings so how can we add it ourselves?

I may be wrong, and I must know the truth on this.  Even though a majority of proclaimed Christians will say He is God, I cannot go by majority, "for narrow is the way to righteousness and broad is the way to destruction."

And if you believe that He was God in the flesh, then please explain the following to me, maybe you can help me see it differently... if Jesus was in fact God then...

1) Who was Jesus praying to in the Garden of Gethsemane?

2) Why would Jesus say that He would sit at the right hand of God?  Do you think He will be beside Himself?

3) Why would Jesus say it is not His purpose to judge the unbelievers that is His Father's job?

4) Why would Jesus hide this fact from His disciples?

5) It is said in scripture that Jesus was the Image of God, not God Himself.  Why wouldn't it just say He was God if this were so?

EDIT: 6)  Only the Father IN HEAVEN knew the time in which Christ would return, if Jesus was God then He too would have known the time of His return right?

I could go on and on with questions that seem contradictory if I see Jesus as God.  I just can't seem to grasp that.  I myself see Him as the Holy Son of God and the only righteous man to ever live and die for all who would believe in Him.  If you're going to just flame me and not give me concrete scriptural proof or at least your opinion on the matter, please don't reply.  I really would like to see the basis for this belief so that maybe the Holy Spirit will turn on a light for me to understand it in that way as well.  God bless!

 

 

[JesusServant]

Oh, and before anyone gets on the "GET HIM!  HERETIC!  HE ISN'T A CHRISTIAN!!! MAUL HIM! HE IS A THINKER!!!" kick.  I do believe in the Trinity, but as the trinity IS stated, the Godhead is made up of three persons not just one, therefore it still doesn't show (to me) Jesus was God.

 

[WorshipGodAlone]

Well JesusServant you are thinking logically . welcome to the 21st century. If there was more people on this earth that thinked like you then they would abolish pagan trinity in no time

 

[billhabing]

Jesus Servant, You are correct in your thinking. There is so much "Systimatic Theology" that himges on the Diety of Christ, that you may get mauled, I have been, and still am, there.

Remember that, Jesus is the first born among many, now we are the sons of God, We are Partakers in the divine nature, we have the mind of CHrist, and being disciples we have the same commission as Jesus. Just as the father sent Me so send I you.

 

[waterwizard]

John 10:30 -- I and my Father are one.

 

[GraftMeIn]

Maybe this bit of scripture will help

Matthew 1: 21-25
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

 

[JesusIsMySaviour]

JesusServant,

I believe the key to understanding the Jesus/God question is to remember that Jesus had a dual nature. Jesus was both God and man. Look at Isaiah 9:6 and you can see the dual nature prophesied about Him. In his human nature, he hungered, thirsted, grew in stature. As God, he forgave sins and healed the sick.

In the end, all you need is Jesus, because the bible says in Colossians 2:9 that In Him(Jesus) dwelleth ALL the fullness of the Godhead bodily and you are COMPLETE in Him. So, when you have Jesus, you have ALL the godhead. You have access to the Father IN Jesus Christ. That's bible.

Oh, when Jesus prayed in the garden, Jesus in his humanity was praying to deity.

 

[JesusServant]

Thanks for all the comments guys, please keep them coming...

GraftMeIn, many times prophecy says that people will call Jesus God, but it never says that He will be. 

I will respond to the rest, but my wife is yelling that dinner is ready so I must go...

Please, everyone, I appreciate all the opinions I can get, so please keep them coming.

 

[Rescued One]

There is only one God in the Bible, the Triune God.

 

GOD IS ONE GOD

1. Deuteronomy 6 : 4 — There is only one God, Jehovah.

2. Isaiah 43 : 10-11— He is the LORD and only Savior.

3. Isaiah 44 : 6 — He is the first and the last. 

4. Revelation 1 : 8 — He is the Lord God Almighty, the Alpha and Omega.

5. Revelation 22 : 13, 16 — Jesus is the first and the last, the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End.

6. Revelation 1 : 17-18 — The one God who was the first and the last died and rose again!

7. Hebrews 1 : 1, 2, 8 — God the Father calls the Son, "God."

8. Acts 5 : 3-4 --Peter calls the Holy Spirit, "God."

9. John 6 : 27 --Jesus calls the Father, "God." 



The Trinity Revealed in the Resurrection 

1. Acts 10 : 39-40 — God raised Christ from the dead.

2. 1 Thessalonians 1 : 10 — God the Father raised the Son from the dead.

3. Romans 8 : 11 — God the Spirit raised the Son from the dead.

4. John 2 : 19-22 — God the Son raised Himself from the dead.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Isaiah 43 : 10 (KJV)

10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

There's only one God. There was never any other God. There never will be any other God.

Exodus 20 : 3 (KJV)

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

 

[JesusServant]

Originally posted by waterwizard
John 10:30 -- I and my Father are one.

The rest of the context of that scripture...

(John 10:35) If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; (John 10:36) Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? (John 10:37) If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. (John 10:38) But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father [is] in me, and I in him.

The way I look at this in modern terms is like being online.  Jesus is always connected to God and God is always connected to His Son Jesus.  There is never any interuption from Sin lag or Sin line distortion.  Jesus constantly listened to the inner voice from His heart that was God directing Him and never did what He may have wanted to do for that would have been selfish like human beings in general by nature.  God already knew exactly how Jesus would handle Himself in all situations and gave Him complete authority that had before only belonged to Him the Father.

Thank you for showing me where this is waterwizard, I knew it was in there somewhere but couldn't remember where.  Now, could you help me with the few questions I posted from the point of view of someone who believes Jesus was God and not the Son of God?

 

[JesusServant]

Originally posted by GodsWordisTrue
There is only one God in the Bible, the Triune God.

 

GOD IS ONE GOD

1. Deuteronomy 6 : 4 — There is only one God, Jehovah.

2. Isaiah 43 : 10-11— He is the LORD and only Savior.

3. Isaiah 44 : 6 — He is the <I>first</I> and the <I>last.</I>

4. Revelation 1 : 8 — He is the Lord God Almighty, the Alpha and Omega.

5. Revelation 22 : 13, 16 — Jesus is the <I>first</I> and the <I>last</I>, the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End.

6. Revelation 1 : 17-18 — The one God who was the <I>first</I> and the <I>last</I> died and rose again!

7. Hebrews 1 : 1, 2, 8 — God the Father calls the Son, "God."

8. Acts 5 : 3-4 --Peter calls the Holy Spirit, "God."

9. John 6 : 27 --Jesus calls the Father, "God."&nbsp;



The Trinity Revealed in the Resurrection&nbsp;

1. Acts 10 : 39-40 — God raised Christ from the dead.

2. 1 Thessalonians 1 : 10 — God the Father raised the Son from the dead.

3. Romans 8 : 11 — God the Spirit raised the Son from the dead.

4. John 2 : 19-22 — God the Son raised Himself from the dead.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Isaiah 43 : 10 (KJV)

10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

There's only <B>one</B> God. There was <B>never any other</B> God. There <B>never will be any other</B> God.

Exodus 20 : 3 (KJV)

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Thank you so much for the scriptures GodsWordisTrue!&nbsp; This will definitely help me in my study!&nbsp; I will definitely be using it for reference.&nbsp; Could you post your answers to my questions?&nbsp; I'm trying to see this from another perspective, and I need some input to do so.&nbsp; Thanks!

 

[JesusServant]

Originally posted by JesusIsMySaviour
JesusServant,

I believe the key to understanding the Jesus/God question is to remember that Jesus had a dual nature. Jesus was both God and man. Look at Isaiah 9:6 and you can see the dual nature prophesied about Him. In his human nature, he hungered, thirsted, grew in stature. As God, he forgave sins and healed the sick.

In the end, all you need is Jesus, because the bible says in Colossians 2:9 that In Him(Jesus) dwelleth ALL the fullness of the Godhead bodily and you are COMPLETE in Him. So, when you have Jesus, you have ALL the godhead. You have access to the Father IN Jesus Christ. That's bible.

Oh, when Jesus prayed in the garden, Jesus in his humanity was praying to deity.

Thanks for the response JesusIsMySaviour, and I appreciate that you and all the others are being respectful and not flaming me &nbsp; Anyhoot, thanks for giving your opinion on a couple of my questions.&nbsp; But as far as Isaiah 9:6, it says he will be called those names, not necessarily that He is those names.&nbsp; But keep the scripture and commentaries coming please, this is helpful for my study no doubt!

 

[Rescued One]

Colossians 1

<SUP>12</SUP>Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
<SUP>13</SUP> Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
<SUP>14</SUP> In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
<SUP>15</SUP> Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
<SUP>16</SUP> For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
<SUP>17</SUP> And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
<SUP>18</SUP> And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
<SUP>19</SUP> For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
<SUP>20</SUP> And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.



The word Elohim is plural because there are three persons, yet they are one, so the verb is singular.

Deuteronomy 6 : 4-5

4Hear, O Israel:&nbsp;Jehovah our&nbsp;Elohim is one Jehovah;

5And thou shalt love Jehovah thy&nbsp;Elohim with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.



&nbsp;

 

[Rescued One]

I'm not a preacher nor am I attending seminary. I do my studies on my own, because I used to believe the Trinity was composed of three separate Gods. I may not be able to answer all your questions in a way that satisfies, but I'll try.

1)&nbsp;Who was Jesus praying to in the Garden of Gethsemane?

The Father(three persons in one God)

2)&nbsp;Why would Jesus say that He would sit at the right hand of God?&nbsp; Do you think He will be beside Himself?

He will sit beside the Father. Do I understand how? No. How can anyone understand? There is only one True God. I haven't been to heaven. But who would we compare God to if He's the only One? We can't try to make Him into something we've seen with our eyes.

3) Why would Jesus say it is not His purpose to judge the unbelievers that is His Father's job?

IDK

4)&nbsp;Why would Jesus hide this fact from His disciples?

Sorry, IDK.

5)&nbsp;It is said in scripture that Jesus was the Image of God, not God Himself.&nbsp;&nbsp;Why wouldn't it just say He was God if this were so?

Where did it say He was not God? He allowed people to worship Him. God is a jealous God and would have been displeased if Jesus was not God. When people bowed to angels, the angels told them not to do it, right?

EDIT: 6)&nbsp; Only the Father IN HEAVEN knew the time in which Christ would return, if Jesus was God then He too would have known the time of His return right?

I've asked this question. No answer. Perhaps Jesus knows the time now.


&nbsp;

 

[Athlon4all]

Jesus is God in the flesh, but yet he is the son of God in the trinity. That is shown by verses in the NT (like John 1, Jesus' Baptism, etc which have been brought up by others). I do undestand your questions, but I do think that the Trinity is one of those things that must be accepted by faith, and won't be understood by anyone until we are in Heaven and see the LORD for who he truly is.

 

[JesusServant]

Thanks once again for your comments guys and thanks for not being rude about it once again

GodsWordisTrue, thanks for trying to answer some of my questions.&nbsp; I know the more I learn about the Word the more questions I have and the more I realize I do not know.

Maybe this is part of the hope that keeps us all going as believers, that there is always some mystery and without mystery, where is the fun?&nbsp; I know God isn't all about us having "fun", but if we had all the answers, then where is the mystery?&nbsp; It also gives us a chance to show (and God gets to see) how hard we seek knowledge and wisdom concerning God and His plan for us.&nbsp; If we ever just threw in the towel like the atheists, then we're lazy and not on fire for God right?

God bless.

 

[Blackhawk]

Originally posted by JesusServant


&nbsp;(John 8:56) Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad.(John 8:57) Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?(John 8:58) Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.

Now this can be interpreted as Jesus saying He is the great I AM, or it could be interpreted as John, "the one whom Jesus loved", as the Word of God in the flesh.&nbsp; When I read I AM I look at it (and this is just my opinion) as the Word of God.&nbsp; The fact that God says He is is His word and unshakable, He is because He says He is.&nbsp; This leads us to&nbsp;other passages that people use to mathematically figure that Jesus was God.

It can also be interperted that Jesus is saying that He is eternal and thus God.

&nbsp;(John 1:1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.(John 1:2) The same was in the beginning with God.(John 1:3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.(John 1:4) In him was life; and the life was the light of men.(John 1:5) And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Now I've known people to say... "the Word was God, and Jesus was the Word in the flesh, so he was God in the flesh."&nbsp; But John never makes this clear conclusion in his writings so how can we add it ourselves? [/B]

Huh? How is "and the Word was God." confusing as to if the Wrod was God or not? Or are you saying that possibly Jesus is not the Word but that is equally clear in john 1.

Here John sayign what John the Baptist said abotu the Word.

Jhn 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Jhn 1:15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.' "
Jhn 1:16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace.

Later in the chapter john shows us what John the Baptist siad when He saw jesus.

Jhn 1:27 "It is He who comes after me, the thong of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie."
Jhn 1:28 These things took place in Bethany beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing.
Jhn 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world !
Jhn 1:30 "This is He on behalf of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'

Do verses 15 and 30 look simililar? hmm. It seems pretty clear that John isd saying that the Word is God and that jesus is the word.

I may be wrong, and I must know the truth on this.&nbsp; Even though a majority of proclaimed Christians will say He is God, I cannot go by majority, "for narrow is the&nbsp;way to righteousness and broad is the way to destruction." [/B]

Of course this does not mean that the majority is wrong though.

And if you believe that He was God in the flesh, then please explain the following to me, maybe you can help me see it differently... if Jesus was in fact God then...

1)&nbsp;Who was Jesus praying to in the Garden of Gethsemane?

2)&nbsp;Why would Jesus say that He would sit at the right hand of God?&nbsp; Do you think He will be beside Himself?

3) Why would Jesus say it is not His purpose to judge the unbelievers that is His Father's job?

4)&nbsp;Why would Jesus hide this fact from His disciples?

Others have shown how these can be explained but the easiest way to explain them is the knowledge that the Trinity is 3 persons in one God.

5)&nbsp;It is said in scripture that Jesus was the Image of God, not God Himself.&nbsp;&nbsp;Why wouldn't it just say He was God if this were so?

Where does the Bible say that Jesus is not God?

 

[Blackhawk]

Okay this is again another thread debating the Trinity so it has been moved here.

 

[Evangelion]

Hmmm...

1) Who was Jesus praying to in the Garden of Gethsemane?

The Father(three persons in one God)

2) Why would Jesus say that He would sit at the right hand of God? Do you think He will be beside Himself?

He will sit beside the Father. Do I understand how? No. How can anyone understand? There is only one True God. I haven't been to heaven. But who would we compare God to if He's the only One? We can't try to make Him into something we've seen with our eyes.

3) Why would Jesus say it is not His purpose to judge the unbelievers that is His Father's job?

IDK

4) Why would Jesus hide this fact from His disciples?

Sorry, IDK.

5) It is said in scripture that Jesus was the Image of God, not God Himself. Why wouldn't it just say He was God if this were so?

Where did it say He was not God? He allowed people to worship Him. God is a jealous God and would have been displeased if Jesus was not God. When people bowed to angels, the angels told them not to do it, right?

EDIT: 6) Only the Father IN HEAVEN knew the time in which Christ would return, if Jesus was God then He too would have known the time of His return right?

I've asked this question. No answer. Perhaps Jesus knows the time now.

...50/50.

Hardly a compelling witness for the Trinitarian god.

 

[Ben johnson]

The rest of the context of that scripture...

(John 10:35) If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; (John 10:36) Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? (John 10:37) If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. (John 10:38) But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father [is] in me, and I in him.

This was sarcasm. The Jews at-the-time undeniably understood Him to be CALLING HIMSELF GOD---and they wanted to kill Him for it. Jesus responded with convolutions, sarcastically, to confuse and disorient them---which He did. His response was quoting Psalm 82, which was ALSO sarcastic: "How much longer will you judge unjustly and favor the wicked? Rescue the weak and needy and deliver them from the wicked. I said 'you are gods' (you think you are), but you will DIE LIKE MEN!"

In this case, the Jews were befuddled, frowning and saying, "HUH???" But Jesus was not killed, He was running circles around them intellectually.

Interestingly, in Jn8:59 the Jews also undeniably understood Him to be calling Himself GOD---and sought to kill Him. But THIS time, Jesus "poofed", walked right through the middle of them and they couldn't see Him!