Was Jesus Christ present at the Council of Nicea?

[HTacianas]

I say yes, he was.

Mat 18:19 - “Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven.

Mat 18:20 - “For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

 

[Dan the deacon]

Seems you have answered your question with a promise given by Christ. Now that does not mean He agreed with them nor does it mean they listened to Him.

 

[HTacianas]

Seems you have answered your question with a promise given by Christ. Now that does not mean He agreed with them nor does it mean they listened to Him.

He gave them their authority to make decisions for the church. And none of the canons of Nicea conflict with any of the teachings of Christ. You can't even make that claim on this board unless you make it in the "controversial" section.

 

[TuxAme]

I think it would be more appropriate to say that it was the Holy Spirit.

 

[Dan the deacon]

He gave them their authority to make decisions for the church. And none of the canons of Nicea conflict with any of the teachings of Christ. You can't even make that claim on this board unless you make it in the "controversial" section.

That was not my meaning. My meaning is that Christ being there does not guarentee a good outcome. I agree this was a good outcome. But two or three were also there at the bad outcomes.

 

[bcbsr]

I say yes, he was.

Mat 18:19 - “Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven.

Mat 18:20 - “For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

So you're saying that he was present then in the same sense as he is also present whenever I meet together with another Christian. So whenever another Christian and I agree on anything, that's the same as the council of Nicea.

 

[HTacianas]

So you're saying that he was present then in the same sense as he is also present whenever I meet together with another Christian. So whenever another Christian and I agree on anything, that's the same as the council of Nicea.

No, it actually doesn't work that way. "Two or more" is a "Hebrewism" with the meaning of "two out of three". More simply, a majority vote. Any other reading results in absurdity.

 

[HTacianas]

That was not my meaning. My meaning is that Christ being there does not guarentee a good outcome. I agree this was a good outcome. But two or three were also there at the bad outcomes.

Which ones had the bad outcomes?

 

[bcbsr]

No, it actually doesn't work that way. "Two or more" is a "Hebrewism" with the meaning of "two out of three". More simply, a majority vote. Any other reading results in absurdity.

Well that's a trivial difference. Rather than debate the semantics, OK you're saying that if I and two other Christians meet together, and two out of three of us agree on something, that's the same as if we were the council of Nicea.

 

[HTacianas]

Well that's a trivial difference. Rather than debate the semantics, OK you're saying that if I and two other Christians meet together, and two out of three of us agree on something, that's the same as if we were the council of Nicea.

No. Jesus said that to his apostles. Not to you and me. The bishops at the Council of Nicea were the rightful successors to the apostles.

 

[bcbsr]

No. Jesus said that to his apostles. Not to you and me. The bishops at the Council of Nicea were the rightful successors to the apostles.

Wrong! Notice the context:

Mt 18:15 "Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
16 "But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’
17 "And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
18 "Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
19 "Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven.
20 "For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them."

Obviously he's giving a general principle applicable to all Christians, not restrict to an elite few. That he's not talking about setting doctrine, but rather judging Christians regarding sin. And further evidence of this is given in the epistles.

1Tim 5:19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses.

2Co 13:1 This will be the third time I am coming to you. "By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established."

 

[Dan the deacon]

Which ones had the bad outcomes?

The one that caused us to cease communion with Rome. It was necessary but not a good thing. A good thing would have been for Rome to repent.

 

[HTacianas]

Wrong! Notice the context:

Mt 18:15 "Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
16 "But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’
17 "And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
18 "Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
19 "Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven.
20 "For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them."

Obviously he's giving a general principle applicable to all Christians, not restrict to an elite few. That he's not talking about setting doctrine, but rather judging Christians regarding sin. And further evidence of this is given in the epistles.

1Tim 5:19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses.

2Co 13:1 This will be the third time I am coming to you. "By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established."

Can you bind or loose either on the earth or in heaven? Can you forgive the sins of another? Can you bestow upon another the gift of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Erik Nelson]

The words out of Jesus' mouth were wherever 2 or 3 are present, I am there amidst them...

that is the DIVINE NAME of God the Father

the maximal presence of Divinity.

 

[bcbsr]

Can you bind or loose either on the earth or in heaven? Can you forgive the sins of another? Can you bestow upon another the gift of the Holy Spirit?

Yep. "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him." Lk 17:3 In fact notice the context of Mt 18:18

Mt 18:15-17 if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

That's what he's talking about. But there's no mention of "bestowing the Holy Spirit" on people there.

Hermeneutic Lesson: Interpret the verse in the context in which it resides.

 

[HTacianas]

Yep. "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him." Lk 17:3 In fact notice the context of Mt 18:18

Mt 18:15-17 if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

That's what he's talking about. But there's no mention of "bestowing the Holy Spirit" on people there.

Hermeneutic Lesson: Interpret the verse in the context in which it resides.

Jhn 20:23 - “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Do you do that? Do you absolve people of their sins? Do you withhold absolution? What criteria do you use?

Act 8:17 - Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

Do you lay hands on people so they receive the Holy Spirit?

 

[bcbsr]

Jhn 20:23 - “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Do you do that? Do you absolve people of their sins? Do you withhold absolution? What criteria do you use?

Act 8:17 - Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

Do you lay hands on people so they receive the Holy Spirit?

Jhn 20:23 - “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Do you do that? Do you absolve people of their sins? Do you withhold absolution? What criteria do you use?

Act 8:17 - Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

Do you lay hands on people so they receive the Holy Spirit?

Neither verse is found in Mt 18. Context!

 

[Hazelelponi]

No, it actually doesn't work that way. "Two or more" is a "Hebrewism" with the meaning of "two out of three". More simply, a majority vote. Any other reading results in absurdity.

No.. that verse has not one thing to do with voting being agreed upon by Jesus, just because two thirds present agreed on something.

Lots of Christians might agree on things and blame God when God wouldn't have had anything to do with it..

Where two or more are gathered together in HIS Name there He is in the midst of them..

His presence is guaranteed, not His consent with just anything we do because we managed a majority vote.

Nothing I said reflects on the council of Nicea - just the idea if we can pull out a majority vote then God will do our bidding or agree with us in some way..

I will remind however, that when we do anything "In His Name" (no matter what that is) then we are doing or asking under (and according to) His authority (as men under His authority)

 

[Hazelelponi]

I say yes, he was.

Mat 18:19 - “Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven.

Mat 18:20 - “For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

I believe the Spirit of God was present that day, and that God guided the proceedings.

 

[HTacianas]

No.. that verse has not one thing to do with voting being agreed upon by Jesus, just because two thirds present agreed on something.

Lots of Christians might agree on things and blame God when God wouldn't have had anything to do with it..

Where two or more are gathered together in HIS Name there He is in the midst of them..

His presence is guaranteed, not His consent with just anything we do because we managed a majority vote.

Nothing I said reflects on the council of Nicea - just the idea if we can pull out a majority vote then God will do our bidding or agree with us in some way..

I will remind however, that when we do anything "In His Name" (no matter what that is) then we are doing or asking under (and according to) His authority (as men under His authority)

The Nicene Creed came about through a majority vote of the bishops present. We have a bible because a majority of bishops voted on the canon.