Was It "Unchristian" To Take The Land From Native Americans??.....

[Steve Petersen]

I don't believe I said that.

You called it their land and that Europeans took it.

You expressed outrage at that.

Are you OK with the taking, but not OK with the method?

Fill us in here.

 

[Incariol]

You called it their land and that Europeans took it.

You expressed outrage at that.

Are you OK with the taking, but not OK with the method?

Fill us in here.

I'm not ok with either the taking or the method.

 

[Steve Petersen]

I'm not ok with either the taking or the method.

What is your solution to this injustice?

 

[Incariol]

What is your solution to this injustice?

I don't have one. Would you like me to think on it? I'm generally opposed to the idea of just throwing money at it.

 

[revanneosl]

I wonder what it would be like to be a foreign resident within the Kaskaskia nation.

 

[Steve Petersen]

I don't have one. Would you like me to think on it? I'm generally opposed to the idea of just throwing money at it.

Would you condemn Native American tribes for taking land from other tribes in the past? Will you hold modern Native Americans accountable for those crimes of their ancestors?

 

[Incariol]

Would you condemn Native American tribes for taking land from other tribes in the past? Will you hold modern Native Americans accountable for those crimes of their ancestors?

That is off-topic.

 

[Steve Petersen]

That is off-topic.

You are the one who introduced 'racial guilt' into this thread.

Don't you think that was a tad 'off-topic?'

 

[Incariol]

You are the one who introduced 'racial guilt' into this thread.

Don't you think that was a tad 'off-topic?'

No. We were discussing how the European settlers took the lands from the Native Americans.

 

[Steve Petersen]

No. We were discussing how the European settlers took the lands from the Native Americans.

The question was whether or not it was unchristian to take the land, not whether Americans of European descent have 'racial guilt.'

So, yes. You were off-topic.

 

[Incariol]

The question was whether or not it was unchristian to take the land, not whether Americans of European descent have 'racial guilt.'

Ok, that's nice.

 

[Boris89]

Conquest of the Americas by Europe is a fulfillment of what God says in Revelation 2:26-27.

The western European nations, although at that time in catholic/protestant herecy, still kept a larger part of God's commandmens*. The Aztecs, Maya etc. were on the other hand outward devil worshippers, sacrificing people by the thousands and pulling their hearts out. What happened to them was much like what God allowed to happen to canaanite Carthage when the Romans (descendants of Japheth) annihilated them. A similar process we also saw in Eastern Europe, when Orthodox Russia conquered huge amounts of land from pagans and muslims in Siberia, Alaska, Caucasus and Central Asia.


* what I mean was their falling away at the Great Schism of 1054, when Rome was chopped off from the body of the Eastern Orthodox church, which is the original true church of Christ.

 

[SkyWriting]

As a Native American myself, let me pose a question back to you. What if the Native Americans had come to Europe and started killing them in the name of their gods claiming that it was what they commanded? And while they were at it, what if they spread diseases that the Europeans weren't used to and just left after that?

Honestly its a load of bull[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] saying that the Europeans coming over and conquering the Native Americans was Christian. To say that the Europeans didn't take from the Native Americans because the Native Americans thought that "no man owned a land" is a load of crap as well. The Native Americans thought that no man alone should own a piece of land, that it was the community's land. The Europeans took away the Native Americans land as a community for their own.

Moving past the past into the present:
Europeans fled repression and N.A. have the same option yet choose to stay.
America gives them the best opportunity and that's why they choose to voluntarily stay here.
The same goes for other groups who mistakenly feel the past limits their options today.
I could be really mad about the past myself, but I have better things to do.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

I have a couple questions regarding the 'flow' of this thread.

1. Does any Christian a Biblically-based Christian doctrinal reference to 'racial guilt'? I would be pleased to review such.

2. If 'indigenous Americans' are NOT a monolithic bloc, how are European 'whites' a monolithic bloc?

3. If European whites are not a monolithic bloc, how does the premise of the original post hold up?

4. Back to racial guilt. If European whites - who may or may not be a monolithic bloc - are possessed of racial guilt for the hideous acts 'they' performed; are the 'indigenous' peoples possessed of racial guilt for the hideous acts 'they' performed?

5. Does anyone have any excuse for this who line of thought, other than another attempt to embarrass, diminish and otherwise discredit the United States? Any? Anyone?

 

[Alive_Again]

It's hard to judge seeing that we don't have the whole picture.

I'm guessing that when the pilgrim church broke off from Europe to practice their beliefs in freedom, they weren't out to make any enemies after they arrived in America. We can assume they didn't have guns blazing and that they, like the Indians, settled on a piece of land to their liking and shared its resources.

The discoverers as we call them, set out to find a route to the spices of the east. They had to overcome perceptions that the earth was flat and full of monsters. When Ferdinand the Isabella set Columbus off to do his thing, they had began to "relieve" their country of its Jewish population (not at all a godly pursuit). Columbus planted the flag of his country and dedicated the land to God (something that actually has meaning).

I'm sure different Native American communities varied in their receptiveness to European settlers. Like any place else, there would be conflicts and violence. Reputations would be established (both true and untrue) and each group would modify their behavior based on their perception of the locals.

Some were converted and were befriended.

I personally do not believe in the "right" of any Christian group to take ownership of land by conquest. We have no record of it in the New Testament. We do have one in the Old, but that is not how we model our behavior.

Over time, in defense of their own families and livelihood, conflicts arose and it became necessary for peace loving Europeans to defend themselves and defeat warring local tribes.

Like every other community on earth, we have bad apples and people who renew on agreements (on both sides). We see a counterpart in Israel/Palestine. The Palestinians agree to a cease fire and then some of their own start bombarding Israel. The natural thing to do is to defend yourself.

Only God knows the "righteousness" of European groups in their dealings with the Natives. Some inherently warlike tribes had it coming when they took the settlers on. With superior fire power, I'm sure we dictated our position to them both fair and unfair.

We know that certain treaties were violated by "us", and that's why we have reservations that are exempt from certain US laws. You can be certain they broke treaties as well.

Sometimes God uses carnal nations to inflict judgment on other nations for their behavior. The subsequent effect when God fearing people are among nations like the European settlers in America, Christ was preached and Christianity was spread. It does not condone certain behaviors.

In certain tribes they practiced pagan stuff that loosed evil spirits. The example of God to Israel in the OT was that these practices would turn the people to follow the same. It was the spiritual component that influences natural men. Even though injustices were done, a certain "house cleaning" was partially accomplished by eradicating the culture of people who practice things that God hates.

I don't believe physical violence to combat people who believe differently than other believers is justified. Europe and the Middle East has known that for centuries. In the NT, believers operate in spiritual warfare, with the subsequent result that the enemy is stymied and the seed of God's Word can go forth in Christian love.

We know that the Brits came into the Middle East in WWI and took their "right by conquest" and marched into Israel. They basically set forth their conviction that Israel should be a nation, in fulfillment of prophecy. They had the "right" by conquest to dictate that. The Palestinians don't like it, but in centuries past, they would have likely been enslaved. The Jews have been merciful to them.

We might assume that people who practice pagan rites have a destiny to hear the Word of God and have their nations culture at least partially displaced. They go from a people with no hope without God to hearing about Christ and going to Heaven.

 

[The Outlier]

Every situation was different. Every tribe was different. Some Indians were nice people. Other were not. Others were no more or less nice than the American pilgrims, but the language barrier got in the way. As I have said before, if I had a wife and kids, and a big guy with funny hair and a tomahawk showed up on my front lawn yelling about something in a foreign language, and he looked like he meant business, I might just shoot him- just sayin.

 

[gideon123]

As an answer to your original question ... YES!!!

Yes, what transpired during the "conquest" of many lands that belonged to native people (and indigenous tribes) can only be described as a near-Holocaust against these people. It was a terrible era of human oppression, and unfortunately it is still not over today. Remnants of that terrible attitude of GREED, POWER, and BIGOTRY still exist today.

Within North America ... the advancing white civilization adopted a viewpoint that became known as "Manifest Destiny". If you go back and look at the writings of many people who participated in these events ... it is very clear that they had a deep religious basis that accompanied Manifest Destiny.

In my view - it was an absolutely terrible philosophy that did ENORMOUS HARM to many native tribes living in North America. And although the new civilization, which we could call the White Civilization or the Dominant Civilization, sought to pretend that there was a "noble purpose" ... in reality it was a LAND grab and a DIRECT THEFT of riches. Nothing more. It was pure greed. Sadly, the many broken treaties have never been honored, many reparations that were due have never been made.

There is NO REASON for us to think we will escape the consequences of these huge sins. The same misguided priorities that existed in the 19'th century - are still with us today. Look at the recent events on Wall Street, if you want to see unbridled greed and corruption. Look at the ills of a society that values money, power and materialism above people, look at the poor attention that is given to the environment, to natural foods, and the preservation of the Earth. These are not small oversights - they will lead to a HUGE crisis in the 21'st century ... our own time.

Gideon

 

[4x4toy]

No .. God lead us here and there were both Christian and non-Christian folk come , too bad the path is narrow for the few and broad for the many .. Many Indians were evangelized , many were abused .. Black folk were brought in and sold into slavery . many come to know the Lord our God and eventually granted freedom .. There is still the Judgment day to set all things straight

 

[GoingByzantine]

John 10:10 - The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

--God loves all his people, even in the OT God sent Joseph to save the Egyptians, who were not of Israel. God commanded that the gospel be preached to every nation so that they may know him, and abandon false idols. However, our lord did not command anyone to steal the land of the Native Americans and to treat them without brotherly love. The Europeans killed 90% of Native Americans, and completely wiped out whole nations of people. Killing, stealing, and treating humans as though they are beasts is not what Christ commanded of us. It's not all about the United States, in the Caribbean for instance 100% of natives were wiped out. Today the Arawak and Caribs are no more, and the lands are pillaged.

The idea that natives were somehow dangerous savages is false. Native culture flourished before the arrival of Europeans, great civilizations in North and South America built massive cities and established transcontinental trade routes. Just like Europeans, many natives were farmers and shepherds of beasts. They developed their own language, their own governments, and they lived in relative peace (of course war occurred in the Americas as well). Then the Europeans arrived and disease spread quickly from Mesoamerica to the North and the South. By the time the French and British were venturing into North America, most of the land had already been decimated by disease. The tribes you know such as the Iroquois, Sioux, Pottowatami, Cherokee, all were shells of their former selves due to European disease. Many other tribes ceased to exist all, many great cities became ruins. The Europeans did not know they carried disease, so you cannot blame them, naturally at some point the "New World" and the "Old World" were bound to meet. It is what happened next that is even the greater travesty.

As we know Christ commanded that the gospel be preached to all people, and in the Americas it was preached, but not in a way that Christ would have approved of.

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John 13:34-35
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

Even after the gospel was preached to natives, and indeed many accepted it and became Christian, they were not treated as fellow brethren. In many areas Native Americans were enslaved, on the coast of California they were whipped and dragged about like animals by the Spanish Army. Indeed even native women who converted often were defiled by European men, who were not there husbands. There land was stolen, Europeans encroached and then killed natives who did not give way to their expansion. Did they ever have the right to settle in the lands of another nation anyway? For in Genesis the patriarchs payed for land, or asked permission before settling. In many places the Europeans planted a flag and stole that which was not theirs to own.

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Blind patriotism leads many a man awry. For there is no problem in praying for a country, a nation or for any people. In Church we pray for this country and others, for they are indeed in need of prayer. Yet, I will not pledge allegiance to a flag, it is a practice that puts a country above God. Brother Archie the Preacher brought up that this thread may be about discrediting the United States. It is about illuminating the wrongs of the past, and making people conscience about the evils done by our forefathers. I am sure that many Native Americans committed violent acts towards Europeans, but ask yourself why?

A once great people had 90% of their population wiped out by disease, whole nations of people who once lived in great cities could no longer support their limited numbers. Wandering tribes likewise suffered from disease and could no longer fully maintain their livelihoods. Then along came strange white men and women, who settled on sacred land and built cities in native lands. Of course you would be scared, and of course you might try to fight these invaders off. Natives were not inherently aggressive, some groups were, but most were just trying to survive. They lost everything, absolutely everything in an extremely short amount of time. Think of what they must have gone through.

 

[jsimms615]

It was unchristian to break numerous promises to native americans. But, to be fair there was unjust actions on both sides