Was Hilter a Christian or not?

[whitestar]

WoW! you think so.I bet you would not think so if someone suggest he was a Muslim.Why try to make Christians be perfect when they are not.

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)
​

(sorry I couldn't include the whole quote, it wouldn't let me)

I can't say I am surprised ...the Catholic church was silent during these killings. The Catholics and the Jews have had many issues between them for years, of course. The Catholics have a history (besides this one) that is pretty hard to defend and makes me glad I am not Catholic. But at any rate satan himself can walk into a church and that does not prove he is a true follower of Jesus, now does it? Even the demons believe in God! Shoot satan is a created angel by God and was once in His presents...would we now say satan was a devoted follower of God? Well of course not. I will not even attempt to try to defend the Catholic church AND other Christians at that time that did remain silent over what Hilter was doing. There is no excuse for it.


What he posted here is from a reliable source...I found the website and the same quotes on here: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler

I also found antiChristian quotes on that same site here: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler#Anti-Christian_Quotes

If, in the course of a thousand or two thousand years, science arrives at the necessity of renewing its points of view, that will not mean that science is a liar. Science cannot lie, for it's always striving, according to the momentary state of know- ledge, to deduce what is true. When it makes a mistake, it does so in good faith. It is Christianity that is the liar. It's in perpetual conflict with itself.(Table Talk, 14th October 1941)

It is deplorable that the Bible should have been translated into German, and that the whole of the German Folk should have thus become exposed to the whole of this Jewish mumbo jumbo… As a sane German, one is flabbergasted to think that German human beings could have let themselves be brought to such a pass by Jewish filth and priestly twaddle, that they were little different from the howling dervish of the Turks and the *******, at whom we laugh so scornfully. It angers one to think that, while in other parts of the globe religious teaching like that of Confucius, Buddha and Mohammed offers an undeniably broad basis for the religious-minded, Germans should have been duped by a theological exposition devoid of all honest depth. (Table Talk, 5th June, 1942)

It is not opportune to hurl ourselves now into a struggle with the churches. The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death. A slow death has something comforting about it. The dogma of Christianity gets worn away before the advances of science. Religion will have to make more and more concessions. Gradually the myths crumble. All that is left is to prove that in nature there is no frontier between the organic and the inorganic. When understanding of the universe has become widespread, when the majority of men know that the stars are not sources of light but worlds, perhaps inhabited worlds like ours, then the Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity. (Table Talk, 14th October, 1941)

Oh there is alot more too. He even claims that Jesus was not a Jew!

Jesus was most certainly not a Jew. The Jews would never have handed one of their own people to the Roman courts; they would have condemned Him themselves. It is quite probable that a large number of the descendants of the Roman legionaries, mostly Gauls, were living in Galilee, and Jesus was probably one of them.

So many records of things Hilter has said only proves, I think, the maddness of this man. If you read closely what he said about God and our faith...it doesn't make alot of sense and he is most certainly twisting the scriptures to fit what he wants..

I have read quotes where he was into occult stuff...this guy was all over the place.

The point is though we can pick out people AS bad as Hilter from every faith, even from atheistism! So what? Should we name all the evil people in history from all sorts of faiths to see which one is the worst? What excatly would that prove? Many of the worst ones in history had no beliefs at all...so we could argue that faith of some kind does cause people to restain themselves in fact...

 

[listener]

Tha was my point that they will deny he was Christian because if what he did. hoever there is enough eveidence out there to prove them wrong.
The other thing is that Christians do not want to associate christianity with the death of millions of Jews.However they will associate the death of a thousand Christians to Islam, cos some misguided persons killed Christians.
Peace
Yaqovzadeek
Aka James the Just.

You have a numeric bias? 'Millions of Jews' vs. 'Thousands of Christians'............
It is a historic fact that the Moslem faith grew by conquest. When the christians polluted themselves in politics, christianity had already spread to most of the known world.

John the Apostle wrote this and similar verses in his first letter:

20If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.

One cannot kill as a christian act. Now, killers can, by the grace of God, become christians; but the act of murder is not, as John tells us, an act of true christians.

 

[listener]

WoW! you think so.I bet you would not think so if someone suggest he was a Muslim.Why try to make Christians be perfect when they are not.

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

There is always afirst for every thing.its my pleasure

Well looks like the man admits it with his own mouth.

Anyway he came into power with the support of the church.He was backed all the way by bishops and Priests.

Here is our non Christian hitler shaking hands with the Cardinal.

For a man who was not Christian.WOW!

Now how often do you see this.A man who does not beleive in GOD (who is an ooccultist as some may want to beleive) Leaving Church?

Evidence that shows he was a Staunch Christian and the Church backed him in what he did.

The anti-Semitism of the new movement [Christian Social movement] was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Not until my fourteenth or fifteenth year did I begin to come across the word 'Jew,' with any frequency, partly in connection with political discussions.... For the Jew was still characterized for me by nothing but his religion, and therefore, on grounds of human tolerance, I maintained my rejection of religious attacks in this case as in others. Consequently, the tone, particularly that of the Viennese anti-Semitic press, seemed to me unworthy of the cultural tradition of a great nation.

At all events, these occasions slowly made me acquainted with the man and the movement, which in those days guided Vienna's destinies: Dr. Karl Lueger and the Christian Social Party.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

(Note: Karl Lueger (1844-1910) belonged as a member of the anti-Semitic Christian Social Party, he became mayor of Vienna and kept his post until his death.)

The words of a christian Below
Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)
A real crusader isn't he?

He even quotes from the Bible, with his own twist:
Sooner will a camel pass through a needle's eye than a great man be 'discovered' by an election.
-Adolf Hitler with his twist on Mark 10:25 (Mein Kampf)

Protestantism as such is a better defender of the interests of Germanism, in so far as this is grounded in its genesis and later tradition; it fails, however, in the moment when this defense of national interests must take place in a province which is either absent from the general line of its ideological world and traditional development, or is for some reason rejected.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Evidences that Hitler and his lark were all Christians and and devout ones too.They shook hand with the cardinals and priests.
I bet many are going into Full gear denial mode LOL.

Verily a man cannot serve two masters. And I consider the foundation or destruction of a religion far greater than the foundation or destruction of a state, let alone a party.
-Adolf Hitler speaking like Jesus in Matthew 6:24 (Mein Kampf)

Peace
Yaqovzadeek
Aka James the Just









​

How does any of that show he is a christian? Read the book of First John, or James; the facts there show that Hitler was not.
Also, you have not shown his acts were remotely christian, which is the more important point to prove.

Hmmmmm. If I get a few photos of me with millionaires, and of me going where millionaires regularly meet. amd then quote the sayings of the millionaires, can I then cash million dollar checks. I guess that is the new economy everyone is talking about. Photo-idealism at its best.

 

[arunma]

How does any of that show he is a christian? Read the book of First John, or James; the facts there show that Hitler was not.
Also, you have not shown his acts were remotely christian, which is the more important point to prove.

Or one could read this verse from the epistles of Paul:

Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, in accordance with the glorious gospel of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted. (1 Timothy 1:8-11)

​

 

[YahwehisHisname]

How does any of that show he is a christian? Read the book of First John, or James; the facts there show that Hitler was not.

Also, you have not shown his acts were remotely christian, which is the more important point to prove.

Hmmmmm. If I get a few photos of me with millionaires, and of me going where millionaires regularly meet. amd then quote the sayings of the millionaires, can I then cash million dollar checks. I guess that is the new economy everyone is talking about. Photo-idealism at its best.

Good points and all correct. I would like to clear up what I think is the most important area that is missed.

One would have to twist and manipulate the Hebrew and Greek scriptures to find a justification for immoral acts. You can not find a call for violence in them.

Now Islam is the exact opposite of that. If you are shaking your head, ask yourself this question-how much do I know about the subject? Bin Laden is not only following the lone prophet of Islam's example, he is obeying the message in the Qur'an perfectly. What part of "wipe the infidels out til the last" or "kill every Jew" is complected? And what do they shout before cutting the throats of the innocent? Yes, "Allah is greatest". From Pan Am 103 , to the Twin Tower Twenty, the murderers are always the same—they’re always Muslims. The same cast of characters blow up public places from Spain to London, and the same lack of character shoot children in the back in Russia. From our embassies in Tanzania and Kenya, to the USS Cole in Yemen, to the bloody streets of Mogadishu, the terrorists are always Islamic. From our barracks in Lebanon and Saudi Arabia to the Olympic Games in Munich, Jews and Christians are the victims, and Muslim militants are the perpetrators.

Bukhari:V4B53N386 “Our Prophet, ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah alone or pay us the Jizyah tribute tax in submission. Our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says: ‘Whoever amongst us is killed as a martyr shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever survives shall become your master.’”

Bukhari:V5B59N440 “Allah’s Apostle used to say, ‘None has the right to be worshipped except Allah Alone..’”

Ishaq:212 “The Quraysh persecuted his followers, seducing some from their religion and exiling others. They became insolent towards Muhammad’s God and rejected His gracious purpose. They accused His prophet of lying. So He gave permission to His Apostle to fight those who had wronged him. He said in his Qur’an: ‘Fight them so that there will be no more seduction , until no Muslim is seduced from Islam. Fight them until the only religion is Islam and Allah alone is worshiped.’”

There is no secret to Islam's goal. We just have to wake up. Sometimes the truth is harsh

 

[YahwehisHisname]

Quote from Arunma
Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, in accordance with the glorious gospel of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted. (1 Timothy 1:8-11)

God is saying that the ones who perform acts such as "striking their fathers and mothers, murdering, the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, and perjurers" are considered "lawless and disobedient, ungodly, unholy, profane and are sinners. It also says that such acts are "contrary to sound doctrine"

Great example

 

[whitestar]

How does any of that show he is a christian? Read the book of First John, or James; the facts there show that Hitler was not.

Also, you have not shown his acts were remotely christian, which is the more important point to prove.

Hmmmmm. If I get a few photos of me with millionaires, and of me going where millionaires regularly meet. amd then quote the sayings of the millionaires, can I then cash million dollar checks. I guess that is the new economy everyone is talking about. Photo-idealism at its best.

Good points and all correct. I would like to clear up what I think is the most important area that is missed.

One would have to twist and manipulate the Hebrew and Greek scriptures to find a justification for immoral acts. You can not find a call for violence in them.

Now Islam is the exact opposite of that. If you are shaking your head, ask yourself this question-how much do I know about the subject? Bin Laden is not only following the lone prophet of Islam's example, he is obeying the message in the Qur'an perfectly. What part of "wipe the infidels out til the last" or "kill every Jew" is complected? And what do they shout before cutting the throats of the innocent? Yes, "Allah is greatest". From Pan Am 103 , to the Twin Tower Twenty, the murderers are always the same—they’re always Muslims. The same cast of characters blow up public places from Spain to London, and the same lack of character shoot children in the back in Russia. From our embassies in Tanzania and Kenya, to the USS Cole in Yemen, to the bloody streets of Mogadishu, the terrorists are always Islamic. From our barracks in Lebanon and Saudi Arabia to the Olympic Games in Munich, Jews and Christians are the victims, and Muslim militants are the perpetrators.

Bukhari:V4B53N386 “Our Prophet, ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah alone or pay us the Jizyah tribute tax in submission. Our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says: ‘Whoever amongst us is killed as a martyr shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever survives shall become your master.’”

Bukhari:V5B59N440 “Allah’s Apostle used to say, ‘None has the right to be worshipped except Allah Alone..’”

Ishaq:212 “The Quraysh persecuted his followers, seducing some from their religion and exiling others. They became insolent towards Muhammad’s God and rejected His gracious purpose. They accused His prophet of lying. So He gave permission to His Apostle to fight those who had wronged him. He said in his Qur’an: ‘Fight them so that there will be no more seduction , until no Muslim is seduced from Islam. Fight them until the only religion is Islam and Allah alone is worshiped.’”

There is no secret to Islam's goal. We just have to wake up. Sometimes the truth is harsh

I don't see the point in dragging the muslim faith into this...that seemed rather uncalled for actually. The topic isn't about them and if we want to trade tic for tac, all we have to do is look at the dark ages when the Catholic's totured people to death in the most gruesome ways in order to convert them. One famous person of this time was refered to as Bloody Mary:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Mary_(person)
Bloody Mary is the name used to refer to Queen Mary I of England because of her persecution of Protestants. The Protestant Reformation, started fitfully in England by King Henry VIII, became established policy under the brief reign of Edward VI. Mary, like her mother Catherine of Aragon, whom Henry VIII had spurned, was a devout Roman Catholic. She contracted an unpopular marriage to the equally devout Philip II of Spain. The pair, with the assistance of conservative churchmen such as Edward "Bloody" Bonner and Stephen Gardiner, sought to reimpose Roman Catholicism upon the religiously divided country.
During her brief reign of just over five years, Mary had almost three hundred people burnt at the stake for heresy. Her persecutions were notable also for the prominence of their victims; the first person to die was the Protestant John Rogers, who had completed and published Tyndale's work as Matthew's Bible. While heresy trials and executions occurred both before and after her reign, she executed more than twice as many as had been executed for this crime over the preceding century and a half.
*************************
If your goal is to convert the muslims of their faith or turn others away from it, you are going about it the wrong way. Did Jesus have this approach? ever? Did He go around pointing fingers at those of other faiths and tell them how evil their's was? I suggest we follow His example here. And lets stay on topic, ok...

 

[Skillganon]

How does any of that show he is a christian? Read the book of First John, or James; the facts there show that Hitler was not.

Also, you have not shown his acts were remotely christian, which is the more important point to prove.

Hmmmmm. If I get a few photos of me with millionaires, and of me going where millionaires regularly meet. amd then quote the sayings of the millionaires, can I then cash million dollar checks. I guess that is the new economy everyone is talking about. Photo-idealism at its best.

Good points and all correct. I would like to clear up what I think is the most important area that is missed.

One would have to twist and manipulate the Hebrew and Greek scriptures to find a justification for immoral acts. You can not find a call for violence in them.

Now Islam is the exact opposite of that. If you are shaking your head, ask yourself this question-how much do I know about the subject? Bin Laden is not only following the lone prophet of Islam's example, he is obeying the message in the Qur'an perfectly. What part of "wipe the infidels out til the last" or "kill every Jew" is complected? And what do they shout before cutting the throats of the innocent? Yes, "Allah is greatest". From Pan Am 103 , to the Twin Tower Twenty, the murderers are always the same—they’re always Muslims. The same cast of characters blow up public places from Spain to London, and the same lack of character shoot children in the back in Russia. From our embassies in Tanzania and Kenya, to the USS Cole in Yemen, to the bloody streets of Mogadishu, the terrorists are always Islamic. From our barracks in Lebanon and Saudi Arabia to the Olympic Games in Munich, Jews and Christians are the victims, and Muslim militants are the perpetrators.

Bukhari:V4B53N386 “Our Prophet, ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah alone or pay us the Jizyah tribute tax in submission. Our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says: ‘Whoever amongst us is killed as a martyr shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever survives shall become your master.’”

Bukhari:V5B59N440 “Allah’s Apostle used to say, ‘None has the right to be worshipped except Allah Alone..’”

Ishaq:212 “The Quraysh persecuted his followers, seducing some from their religion and exiling others. They became insolent towards Muhammad’s God and rejected His gracious purpose. They accused His prophet of lying. So He gave permission to His Apostle to fight those who had wronged him. He said in his Qur’an: ‘Fight them so that there will be no more seduction , until no Muslim is seduced from Islam. Fight them until the only religion is Islam and Allah alone is worshiped.’”

There is no secret to Islam's goal. We just have to wake up. Sometimes the truth is harsh

One will think one is the embodiment of Mr Mount Sin(i).

& you keep qouting thing's you do not know of.

I let you swallow you'r own hatred but do not take other's down the same path.

 

[elijah115]

whitestar,

Are you saying Jesus didn't admonish hypocrites and falsehoods?

If you wanted to tell him to stay on topic - You could have - but your your reply seems to contradict numerous parables in which Jesus spoke against false doctrines.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Hitler was just another "Adversary" raised up by God to try and test His people. He did that numerous times in the OT and in fact does it in the NT as well:

1 Kings 11:25 He was an adversary of Israel all the days of Solomon (besides the trouble that Hadad [caused);] and he abhorred Israel, and reigned over Syria.

Here He actually gives authority to "10 kings" to utterly burn and destroy a Harlot

Reve 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest, and the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and shall burn her utterly with fire. 17 For God did put in their hearts to do his mind, and to come to one mind, and to give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God should be accomplished.

 

[arunma]

Hitler was just another "Adversary" raised up by God to try and test His people. He did that numerous times in the OT and in fact does it in the NT as well:

If so, then it looks like God's people (who are the church) failed. It seems to me that if the churches of Europe had done their jobs, Nazism would never have become popular at all.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

If so, then it looks like God's people (who are the church) failed. It seems to me that if the churches of Europe had done their jobs, Nazism would never have become popular at all.

That is a tough call. Churches were and are pretty divided, with divisions and dissentions, and that can allow things to creep in the "back door" so to speak. United we stand, divided we fall. is the old adage.

 

[arunma]

That is a tough call. Churches were and are pretty divided, with divisions and dissentions, and that can allow things to creep in the "back door" so to speak. United we stand, divided we fall. is the old adage.

Agreed. The problem is, divisions are precisely what Paul warned us against. Despite being a Baptist, I cannot help but feel that the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church of the first 1,000 years of Christianity was closer to the ideal than what we have today. Obviously I don't suggest reunion with the Roman Catholic system, which has (in my opinion) since developed many incorrect doctrines. But perhaps we should ask ourselves whether a divided church is a good idea. As you've shown, divisions make it harder for us to resist moral evils such as Nazism.

 

[YahwehisHisname]

whitestar

I don't see the point in dragging the muslim faith into this...that seemed rather uncalled for actually. The topic isn't about them and if we want to trade tic for tac, all we have to do is look at the dark ages when the Catholic's totured people to death in the most gruesome ways in order to convert them. One famous person of this time was refered to as Bloody Mary:


I am no fan of the RCC, and you can not show Yahweh's scriptures promoting what they did. Hitler was being errantly tied to being a christian when the truth is that his writtings were identical to Islams. By pointing this out, you label it "uncalled for". The "point" for doing so is simple; our tolerance of a doctrine exactly as the one which cost 55 million lives, will be devastating. You demonstrate why.

If your goal is to convert the muslims of their faith or turn others away from it, you are going about it the wrong way.

Truth is the only thing that beats deception.

Did Jesus have this approach?

Yes
ever?

always

Did He go around pointing fingers at those of other faiths and tell them how evil their's was? I suggest we follow His example here. And lets stay on topic, ok...


I suggest you read the gospels and the third commandment. And maybe start with the first prophetic letter to the ekklessia (errantly translated church"), since we get to see what makes our creator happy there.
“I have seen (oida – have perceived, have known, and recognized; I am aware of, and have considered) that which occupies you (ergon – your business, employment, labor, undertakings, works, and deeds), your grief and sorrows (kopos – difficulties and laborious toil), and your steadfast consistency and endurance (hupomone – cheerful loyalty, load carrying capability, perseverance, and patience). I know that you cannot possibly accept, tolerate, or endure (ou dynamai bastazo – haven’t the will, ability, or state of mind to take up with, walk along side of, lift up or carry forward (i.e., advance or promote)) those who think errantly, those who are wrong, injurious, pernicious, destructive, or baneful (kakos – are bad, incorrect, worthless, wicked, depraved, evil, harmful, noisome, morally corrupt, diseased, culpable, derelict, vicious, mischievous, guilty, rotten, demonic, or hurtful). And you have observed and objectively tested (peirazo – scrutinized, examined through enquiry, tried, and pierced through) those who maintain (phasko – say, affirm, assert, profess, declare, promise, or infer) they (heautou) are (eimi) messengers (apostolos – one who is sent forth with Godly orders, teachers, special ambassadors, delegates, or apostles) but are not, and have found them (heurisko – examined, scrutinized, come to understand them, and discovered through observing them that they are) false, deceitful liars (pseudes - untrue, erroneous, deceivers). And you have (echo) loyal steadfastness and enduring consistency (hupomone) and have endured (bastazo – carried forward by having been provided for, accepting and experiencing) through (dia – actively and continually effecting by reason, that which intervenes) My name (onoma – title, character, person, reputation, and authority; from oninemi, meaning to bring notoriety, pleasure, and joy). You have worked hard (kopiao – labored with wearisome effort) and have not grown tired.” (Revelation 2:2-3)

By not understanding these words, Christians have become worthless—just as Jews had become in the parable of the wine grower. Pastors have told us that “tolerance” is a “Christian virtue” yet, according to God, intolerance is preferable—even praiseworthy. This assembly was commended for their unwillingness to “accept or endure” false teaching. Today’s church wallows in it. Deception is so pervasive, truth is hard to find. It’s so bad, that when truth is shared, Christian’s ruthlessly attack messenger and the message.

“Be a herald, openly proclaiming and publishing the Word. Be ready and take a stand…finding fault, exposing, refuting, and convicting (elegcho – overwhelming opponents in argument, refuting them conclusively and convincingly, shaming those being convicted; exposing their errors while reprehending them; calling them to account for what they have said and done and demanding an explanation; chastening and punishing them), sharply chiding, severely warning, and censuring them (epitimao – judging and adjudicating them, assessing blame, pronouncing sentence, denouncing and condemning them, judiciously proclaiming the merited penalty while expressing strong disapproval), summoning, addressing, and speaking to them so as to admonish and exhort them (parakaleo – telling them to be wary, expressing disapproval in an earnest, solicitous, and concerned manner, meticulously careful and yet eagerly passionate) in (en) individual and collective(pass – total and complete) enduring passion and anger, constant and steadfast indignation and fierceness (makrothumai – from macros, meaning long lasting and enduring and from thumos, meaning passion, anger, indignation, fierceness, and wrath; from thuo, to sacrifice the victim, killing and destroying them, slaughtering them) and teaching and instruction (didache – the use of facts and evidence to increase comprehension and understanding).” (2 Timothy 4:2)

There is never a shortage of “Christians” who preach tolerance and are intolerant of those who “find fault, expose error, and refute lies, overwhelming and shaming deceivers in argument.”

Paul’s call to elegcho is repeated ten times in the Renewed Covenant in ten different books: Matthew 18:15; John 3:20; 16:8; Ephesians 5:11; 1 Timothy 5:20; 2 Timothy 4:2; Titus 1:9; Hebrews 12:5; James 2:9; Jude 15; Revelation 3:19; John 8:9; and Jude 22-3.

The message is clear; it is our minds that are muddled. We have tolerated, even condoned all manner of error. It is the reason the world is in a mess today. It is the reason that the church is mired in Satanic deception rather than grounded on Yahweh’s Word. It is the reason why Islam will be able to do what the scriptures say they will. Our political correctness is deadly.

 

[YahwehisHisname]

And the Third Commandment says:

“You shall not nasa (lift up, accept, advance, bear, tolerate, or pardon) the shem (position, individual nature, designation, honor, authority, character, mark, fame, name, prominence, reputation, and report) of YHWH (Yahweh) your elohiym (Supreme and Mighty One, Deity) in shav (a destructive, evil, devastating, desolate , wasteful, beguiling, immoral, idolatrous, false, deceptive, or dishonest) way. For Yahweh will not naqah (cleanse him, bare him, exonerate him, acquit him, hold him blameless, or leave him unpunished) who nasa (lifts up, accepts, advances, bears, tolerates, or pardons) His shem (position, individual nature, designation, honor, authority, character, mark, fame, name, prominence, reputation, and report) being used in shav (a destructive, evil, devastating, desolate, wasteful, beguiling, immoral, idolatrous, false, deceptive, or dishonest) way.” (Exodus 20:7)

We are not to tolerate anything that is false, destructive, or deceitful when attributed to His shem. That would include false gods, false prophets, false religions, false doctrines, false teachings, and even false translations. The consequence is severe.

 

[whitestar]

I am not being political correct...in fact I detest the whole idea...it just seemed to me that out of the blue you are suddenly attacking another faith...I did not see any connection to what you were doing related to this thread...that was my point.

whitestar

I don't see the point in dragging the muslim faith into this...that seemed rather uncalled for actually. The topic isn't about them and if we want to trade tic for tac, all we have to do is look at the dark ages when the Catholic's totured people to death in the most gruesome ways in order to convert them. One famous person of this time was refered to as Bloody Mary:


I am no fan of the RCC, and you can not show Yahweh's scriptures promoting what they did. Hitler was being errantly tied to being a christian when the truth is that his writtings were identical to Islams. By pointing this out, you label it "uncalled for". The "point" for doing so is simple; our tolerance of a doctrine exactly as the one which cost 55 million lives, will be devastating. You demonstrate why.

I disagree. First of all I am not torlanting anything. This is a message board...I am not in some leadership about to hang the reign over to some madman. Lets stay real here.


If your goal is to convert the muslims of their faith or turn others away from it, you are going about it the wrong way.

Truth is the only thing that beats deception.

Fine, but its the approach I am talking about...do you present truth in love?

1 Corinthians 13

The Greatest Gift

1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned,[a] but have not love, it profits me nothing.



Did Jesus have this approach?

Yes
ever?

always

Show me the scriptures where He did this as you are doing it?

Did He go around pointing fingers at those of other faiths and tell them how evil their's was? I suggest we follow His example here. And lets stay on topic, ok...


I suggest you read the gospels and the third commandment. And maybe start with the first prophetic letter to the ekklessia (errantly translated church"), since we get to see what makes our creator happy there.
“I have seen (oida – have perceived, have known, and recognized; I am aware of, and have considered) that which occupies you (ergon – your business, employment, labor, undertakings, works, and deeds), your grief and sorrows (kopos – difficulties and laborious toil), and your steadfast consistency and endurance (hupomone – cheerful loyalty, load carrying capability, perseverance, and patience). I know that you cannot possibly accept, tolerate, or endure (ou dynamai bastazo – haven’t the will, ability, or state of mind to take up with, walk along side of, lift up or carry forward (i.e., advance or promote)) those who think errantly, those who are wrong, injurious, pernicious, destructive, or baneful (kakos – are bad, incorrect, worthless, wicked, depraved, evil, harmful, noisome, morally corrupt, diseased, culpable, derelict, vicious, mischievous, guilty, rotten, demonic, or hurtful). And you have observed and objectively tested (peirazo – scrutinized, examined through enquiry, tried, and pierced through) those who maintain (phasko – say, affirm, assert, profess, declare, promise, or infer) they (heautou) are (eimi) messengers (apostolos – one who is sent forth with Godly orders, teachers, special ambassadors, delegates, or apostles) but are not, and have found them (heurisko – examined, scrutinized, come to understand them, and discovered through observing them that they are) false, deceitful liars (pseudes - untrue, erroneous, deceivers). And you have (echo) loyal steadfastness and enduring consistency (hupomone) and have endured (bastazo – carried forward by having been provided for, accepting and experiencing) through (dia – actively and continually effecting by reason, that which intervenes) My name (onoma – title, character, person, reputation, and authority; from oninemi, meaning to bring notoriety, pleasure, and joy). You have worked hard (kopiao – labored with wearisome effort) and have not grown tired.” (Revelation 2:2-3)

Honestly how do you expect anyone to beable to read that when you add a billion defination to it? It makes it into gibberish.

Revelation 2:2-3
2 “I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; 3 and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name’s sake and have not become weary.

This was written to the Christian church...it does not say to go around attacking others for their faith. You are adding into it. We are to give the truth by presenting OUR scriptures and in love not in attacks.


By not understanding these words, Christians have become worthless—just as Jews had become in the parable of the wine grower. Pastors have told us that “tolerance” is a “Christian virtue” yet, according to God, intolerance is preferable—even praiseworthy. This assembly was commended for their unwillingness to “accept or endure” false teaching. Today’s church wallows in it. Deception is so pervasive, truth is hard to find. It’s so bad, that when truth is shared, Christian’s ruthlessly attack messenger and the message.

“Be a herald, openly proclaiming and publishing the Word. Be ready and take a stand…finding fault, exposing, refuting, and convicting (elegcho – overwhelming opponents in argument, refuting them conclusively and convincingly, shaming those being convicted; exposing their errors while reprehending them; calling them to account for what they have said and done and demanding an explanation; chastening and punishing them), sharply chiding, severely warning, and censuring them (epitimao – judging and adjudicating them, assessing blame, pronouncing sentence, denouncing and condemning them, judiciously proclaiming the merited penalty while expressing strong disapproval), summoning, addressing, and speaking to them so as to admonish and exhort them (parakaleo – telling them to be wary, expressing disapproval in an earnest, solicitous, and concerned manner, meticulously careful and yet eagerly passionate) in (en) individual and collective(pass – total and complete) enduring passion and anger, constant and steadfast indignation and fierceness (makrothumai – from macros, meaning long lasting and enduring and from thumos, meaning passion, anger, indignation, fierceness, and wrath; from thuo, to sacrifice the victim, killing and destroying them, slaughtering them) and teaching and instruction (didache – the use of facts and evidence to increase comprehension and understanding).” (2 Timothy 4:2)

There is never a shortage of “Christians” who preach tolerance and are intolerant of those who “find fault, expose error, and refute lies, overwhelming and shaming deceivers in argument.”

Paul’s call to elegcho is repeated ten times in the Renewed Covenant in ten different books: Matthew 18:15; John 3:20; 16:8; Ephesians 5:11; 1 Timothy 5:20; 2 Timothy 4:2; Titus 1:9; Hebrews 12:5; James 2:9; Jude 15; Revelation 3:19; John 8:9; and Jude 22-3.

The message is clear; it is our minds that are muddled. We have tolerated, even condoned all manner of error. It is the reason the world is in a mess today. It is the reason that the church is mired in Satanic deception rather than grounded on Yahweh’s Word. It is the reason why Islam will be able to do what the scriptures say they will. Our political correctness is deadly.

I have no arguement with what you are saying...but you seem to be missing the point here. This topic is not about the muslims...I honestly do not see how you have made the leap from Hilter to the muslims faith! To me everyone was staying on topic just find then out of the blue you start denouncing the muslim faith! I am sorry you cannot see what I am talking about here. It seems to me if you are so concerned about sharing the truth of their faith you would simply start your own thread with something in the title to get their attention...at least that is what I would do. Jesus also says that those that are unwilling to hear the Good News...we should shake the dust off our feet and leave...meaning don't hound them. And still I do not see Jesus going out of His way to point out other faiths and what is wrong with them.

Instead He simply spoke the truth. So why don't you? Just post scriptures from our bible? What would be wrong with that? Isn't our main goal to save souls? Not chase them off? I have found that by attacking a person's faith, it causes them to dig their heels in ever deeper and argue rather then be willing to listen to what you have to say. Jesus befriends the lost...remember? He didn't preach to them like you are...He ate dinner with them...became friends with them. He gave them the truth of God and they listened. He didn't sit down and go over all the things wrong with their beliefs. With your approach how many souls have you lead to God so that the Holy Spirit may work in them? Or how many have just simply closed their hearts to you and God because of your approach?

 

[whitestar]

Agreed. The problem is, divisions are precisely what Paul warned us against. Despite being a Baptist, I cannot help but feel that the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church of the first 1,000 years of Christianity was closer to the ideal than what we have today. Obviously I don't suggest reunion with the Roman Catholic system, which has (in my opinion) since developed many incorrect doctrines. But perhaps we should ask ourselves whether a divided church is a good idea. As you've shown, divisions make it harder for us to resist moral evils such as Nazism.

I think it would make sense to simply follow what the bible says and how the examples in the NT of the early churches were ran....but as we see, even Paul had to deal with all sorts of problems croping up even then in the church! This is not something new and won't be resolved until Jesus returns.

God bless

 

[whitestar]

whitestar,

Are you saying Jesus didn't admonish hypocrites and falsehoods?

If you wanted to tell him to stay on topic - You could have - but your your reply seems to contradict numerous parables in which Jesus spoke against false doctrines.

Sure Jesus did...of His OWN religion! I do not see any examples of Him refuting people of other faiths. He simply gave them the truth, which was Him. I am sure He offended them too...saying to woship the one true God...but you don't see Him singling out a Hindu, or a muslim like we do today. Why can we not just post scriptures? And let God's word speak for itself? Instead we go after them in a ugly, and very unloving way and drive them further away from God...

 

[arunma]

Sure Jesus did...of His OWN religion! I do not see any examples of Him refuting people of other faiths. He simply gave them the truth, which was Him. I am sure He offended them too...saying to woship the one true God...but you don't see Him singling out a Hindu, or a muslim like we do today. Why can we not just post scriptures? And let God's word speak for itself? Instead we go after them in a ugly, and very unloving way and drive them further away from God...

But Jesus never spoke about other religions because his ministry was limited to Jews. The Apostles did preach to people of other religions, and they denied the existence of their gods. Paul said to the Athenians:

The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything.(Acts 17:24-25)
​

Surely if the Apostle ever encountered a Hindu, he would teach him that his gods are false, and are not capable of reproducing the salvation of the Lord Jesus. It is possible to say that other religions are false without being unloving.

 

[JGL53]

...Surely if the Apostle ever encountered a Hindu, he would teach him that his gods are false, and are not capable of reproducing the salvation of the Lord Jesus...

And the Apostle would have been wasting his time since no Hindu believes any of the myriad of gods they believe exist offer them any "salvation". Hindus believe that all came from the Brahman, the Divine Self, and all will return after many reincarnations. In christian terms, Hindus see god as all, and all as god, with no ultimate separation or distinction equivalent to the man/god distinction of christianity.

...It is possible to say that other religions are false without being unloving. ..

Of course it is. When I point out that there is no real evidence that christianity should be taken as literally true, I don't think I am being unloving - I am just trying to help my fellow humans out.