Was Cain elect?

[Near]

Go to debate section....apparently, I can only ask questions but cant counter 'answers' given by calvinists here.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7720789/

Was Cain elect?
If total depravity is right,why did God say in Gen 4:7

Sin lies at the door, its desire is for you, you should rule against it.

So, God basically said, to Cain who didnt have the Holy Spirit in him, you are capable of ruling against sin.

....or was he taunting him? You can rule against sin...when in reality his depravity had control of him.

What do you think of Yetzer Tov and Yetzer Hara?
Its paired with free-will, so its not total depravity.

 

[twin1954]

Was Cain elect?
If total depravity is right,why did God say in Gen 4:7

Sin lies at the door, its desire is for you, you should rule against it.

So, God basically said, to Cain who didnt have the Holy Spirit in him, you are capable of ruling against sin.

....or was he taunting him? You can rule against sin...when in reality his depravity had control of him.

What do you think of Yetzer Tov and Yetzer Hara?
Its paired with free-will, so its not total depravity.

The Ask a Calvinist section is for those who are honestly seeking answers. If you want to pick a fight go to the Debate a Calvinist section.

 

[Near]

technocally, those were questions, but I will go to the other section anyways

 

[twin1954]

technocally, those were questions, but I will go to the other section anyways

You made a pretty loud statement in the tone of your questions that you weren't seeking answers but a fight. Perhaps some will engage you in the other section. But be warned, those who debate there are no novices and are well versed in the art of refuting the naysayers.

 

[Near]

I smile

fyi, I was a calvinist, hard determinist, yep

things changed

 

[gmm4j]

Hey BetaChristian,

Try coming over into soteriology http://www.christianforums.com/f83/. It is pretty active.

 

[GrinningDwarf]

Hey BetaChristian,

Try coming over into soteriology http://www.christianforums.com/f83/. It is pretty active.

Been there; done that. Unfortunately, the soteriology forum is mostly "tales told by idiots, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." Whoever shouts the loudest wins the battles. Too much of a time sink over there with too few results.

 

[GrinningDwarf]

I smile

fyi, I was a calvinist, hard determinist, yep

things changed

I have friends who claimed to be Calvinists and left. Later on in life, when I learned what Calvinism really taught...turns out they weren't really Calvinists, after all. They were following the caricature, which of course makes no sense.

'Hard determinist' sounds like 'hyper-Calvinist'...which really isn't Calvinism at all, but a caricature.

 

[bsd058]

Was Cain elect?
If total depravity is right,why did God say in Gen 4:7

Sin lies at the door, its desire is for you, you should rule against it.

So, God basically said, to Cain who didnt have the Holy Spirit in him, you are capable of ruling against sin.

....or was he taunting him? You can rule against sin...when in reality his depravity had control of him.

What do you think of Yetzer Tov and Yetzer Hara?
Its paired with free-will, so its not total depravity.

I won't really argue with you here but I would just like to give you an English lesson.

The word "should" or "you must" or "thou shalt" usually implies a moral responsibility (like in the ten commandments).
The word "can" usually implies an actual ability.

Kant got it wrong, in case you want to say something like "Ought implies can." It clearly doesn't from the biblical perspective.

Nowadays teachers aren't teaching these things in school, but they should! Hopefully, they have the ability to understand the difference so that they can teach it!

 

[Near]

So God was just messing with Cain. God knew Cain couldnt choose not to sin, therfore he was tuanting him. That's how it is in calvinism I guess.

Jesus said, "Go and sin no more"

more tuanting?

Also, why couldnt Cain choose not to kill his brother?

 

[Skala]

So God was just messing with Cain. God knew Cain couldnt choose not to sin, therfore he was tuanting him. That's how it is in calvinism I guess.

Jesus said, "Go and sin no more"

more tuanting?

Also, why couldnt Cain choose not to kill his brother?

Did you even read the post by bsd? He clearly proved that "should" and "ability" are two different things. God wasn't telling cain he had an ability to do anything. He was telling me what he is expected to do or what he ought to do.

Commands do not automatically mean ability.

Even the Bible teaches this where theology is more fleshed out (more than it is in a passing comment from God to Cain). The NT clearly teaches that command does not imply ability. For example we are told to obey the commandments, but the apostles taught us that the 10 commandments are impossible to obey for anyone except Christ. Paul said the law did not exist as a means of salvation but as a mirror/standard by which to see sin.

And again Christ said to be perfect as our Father in heaven is, but yet that is also impossible.

 

[Near]

So, God taunts people, and asks things he know we cant do?
He also holds us accountable.
And sends people to hell because he didnt will them to repent, and stop a sin.

Also, it's possible to obey the commandments. For example, im not commiting adultery.
Im doing a pretty good job too.

 

[bsd058]

So, God taunts people, and asks things he know we cant do?
He also holds us accountable.
And sends people to hell because he didnt will them to repent, and stop a sin.

Also, it's possible to obey the commandments. For example, im not commiting adultery.
Im doing a pretty good job too.

Wow! Could you sound any more like the Pharisee in Luke 18:11?

Why does it mean he is taunting? That's a jump in logic. He is driving men to the cross of Christ because of their utter helplessness. Righteousness was never meant to come by the law. It was meant as a school master driving us to Christ.

Gal 3:24 - So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.

But you do commit adultery all of the time. Are you kidding? When has a minute gone by and you haven't lusted after someone? You're making Jesus a liar. How about the Word of God?

Gen 6:5 - The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.

Gen 8:21 - The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done

Rom 3:9-12 - What shall we conclude then? Are we any betterb? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."

Furthermore, you just answered exactly how Paul's opponents answered him: One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" (Rom 9:19)

Tell me, how did Paul answer your objection to God's will to harden some and mercy others?

And while you're looking for that answer, get off your high horse.

 

[Near]

In the past, i had lusted, but i do not lust anymore.
Why do you judge me becuase I am obeying Jesus?
Jesus is not a liar, and I do not lust.
The passage you took in Genesis refered to the world at that time.
Noah was a just man, he was not like the world.
You must read in context.
Read
Luke 1:6
You have to let go of sin. If you continue in sin you will perish.

Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. (I John 3:4-9 NKJV)

Jesus has taken away my sin, he is not weak. He is omnipotent, and it is possible, anything, with God.
Do not make God a liar, if you are saying, that he cannot take away our sins.

And im not perfect, i don't do all the good i can possibly do, for example, i am not always witnessing, and I am not always praying. However, if you claim its a sin to not aways pray or preach, you'd be accusing Jesus of sin, seeing that he was not preaching every second.
Im talking about heart purity, and righteousness.
The unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom.

 

[twin1954]

In the past, i had lusted, but i do not lust anymore.
Why do you judge me becuase I am obeying Jesus?
Jesus is not a liar, and I do not lust.
The passage you took in Genesis refered to the world at that time.
Noah was a just man, he was not like the world.
You must read in context.
Read
Luke 1:6
You have to let go of sin. If you continue in sin you will perish.

Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. (I John 3:4-9 NKJV)

Jesus has taken away my sin, he is not weak. He is omnipotent, and it is possible, anything, with God.
Do not make God a liar, if you are saying, that he cannot take away our sins.

And im not perfect, i don't do all the good i can possibly do, for example, i am not always witnessing, and I am not always praying. However, if you claim its a sin to not aways pray or preach, you'd be accusing Jesus of sin, seeing that he was not preaching every second.
Im talking about heart purity, and righteousness.
The unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom.

You are either decieved or a liar. If we say we have no sin we make God a liar and the truth is not in us. 1John 1:10 I find nowhere in the Scriptures that says that He takes away our sins as you suggest. What I find is that He purged our sin, put away our sin and blotted out our sin. He made our sin not to exist before God but it still exists in us while we live in the corruptible body. Perfectionism has been proven a heresy. If you think you can go without sinning you have no idea what sin actually is.

 

[Near]

Did I say I have never sinned? No
The verse you use was about gnostics who believed "we" have no sin, but its really the flesh. Its also written, that Jesus came in the flesh, as explained, and the gnostics went mad becuase if Jesus had flesh, they think he's a sinner.
But if its us, out of free will that are sinful, we are to blame and we as people have sin.

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. (1 John 3:4-9, 24 KJV)

So, you've read, "behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world"

Can a person stop lusting?
Becuase thats what I've done.
Sin is trangression of the law.
He who sins is of the devil.
Calvinists sin daily in thought word and deed, of the devil.

It says right in the passage, he takes sin away. The sin stops.

1 John 3 is enlightening

I believe I can obey Jesus, and will not sin.

 

[bsd058]

Beta, you are misusing God's Word. Taking away your sin, yes, but saying you don't sin anymore is just prideful. Someone who is so righteous would know God's Holy Word better. So you no longer have no sin? 1 John 3 you say proves your point? Have you read the WHOLE book?

1 John 1:8 - If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

1 John was written to believers and was written by a believer who admits that he still has sin. Those who say they don't are liars and are not believers. You need to look in the mirror, man. For real. You're in a dangerous state of mind.

Ok. I'm out. I really can't stomach looking at your posts anymore.

 

[Near]

Actually, I have sinned in the past. Therefore I am not sinless, seeing as I have sinned, at the moment im not sinning, but someone could use that same verse to say, you are sinning perpetually.

1 John adresses the influence of the Docetics.

if we say we have no sin, meaning, we as humans have sin, as people.
the docetics believed the flesh was evil, and thats where sin was, and they werent responsible for the actions of the flesh.
thats why it says, "jesus came in the flesh"
There is a historical background,
and yes, I can say I've stopped sinning, but if i sin again, i'll surely die, unless I repent, and do the first works.
i dont claim its impossible for me to sin, i just choose not to sin

 

[Jack Terrence]

It says right in the passage, he takes sin away. The sin stops.

He takes away the penalty of sin only. This is why John said that Jesus is propitiation for sins because He takes away its penalty.

John was not speaking about the eradication of sin.

 

[Near]

You know, it's like you guys are defending sin.

What is wrong with obeying Jesus?

Why cant a person stop sinning right away?

Especially, a born again christian.