Was Augustine a Perfectionist?

[Daniel Marsh]

Was Augustine a Perfectionist?

"Chapter 39.— He Who is Mature in Faith, Hope and Love, Needs Scripture No Longer.
43. And thus a man who is resting upon faith, hope and love, and who keeps a firm hold upon these, does not need the Scriptures except for the purpose of instructing others. Accordingly, many live without copies of the Scriptures, even in solitude, on the strength of these three graces. So that in their case, I think, the saying is already fulfilled: Whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 1 Corinthians 13:8 Yet by means of these instruments (as they may be called), so great an edifice of faith and love has been built up in them, that, holding to what is perfect, they do not seek for what is only in part perfect — of course, I mean, so far as is possible in this life; for, in comparison with the future life, the life of no just and holy man is perfect here. Therefore the apostle says: Now abides faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity: 1 Corinthians 13:13 because, when a man shall have reached the eternal world, while the other two graces will fail, love will remain greater and more assured."(On Christian Doctrine > Book I)CHURCH FATHERS: On Christian Doctrine, Book I (St. Augustine)

 

[Volante Nocturno]

Was Augustine a Perfectionist?

"Chapter 39.— He Who is Mature in Faith, Hope and Love, Needs Scripture No Longer.
43. And thus a man who is resting upon faith, hope and love, and who keeps a firm hold upon these, does not need the Scriptures except for the purpose of instructing others. Accordingly, many live without copies of the Scriptures, even in solitude, on the strength of these three graces. So that in their case, I think, the saying is already fulfilled: Whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 1 Corinthians 13:8 Yet by means of these instruments (as they may be called), so great an edifice of faith and love has been built up in them, that, holding to what is perfect, they do not seek for what is only in part perfect — of course, I mean, so far as is possible in this life; for, in comparison with the future life, the life of no just and holy man is perfect here. Therefore the apostle says: Now abides faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity: 1 Corinthians 13:13 because, when a man shall have reached the eternal world, while the other two graces will fail, love will remain greater and more assured."(On Christian Doctrine > Book I)CHURCH FATHERS: On Christian Doctrine, Book I (St. Augustine)

Augustine was obsessive compulsive... and wrong. There is never a time when anybody does not need the scriptures

 

[Daniel Marsh]

How many people in Jesus's time walked around with a Bible under their arms? I know that Paul asked someone to send him his scrolls which means He did not have them with him at the time, and yet He was still able to teach others. It is not likely, that Peter, Luke and others had a complete Bible with them.

But, I am curious if Augustine was a perfectionist or not?

 

[Shempster]

If he was, he was referring to the same perfectionism Jesus did.
Young's Literal Translation Matthew 5:48
ye shall therefore be perfect, as your Father who is in the heavens is perfect.

It seems pretty clear that we are expected to be perfect in this verse. So the question remains?
How can one be perfect? There are thousands of things that I must abstain from. Its not possible.
This is the sentiment anybody would have, right? I have heard it numerous times in the last 30 years. Nobody's perfect, they say. You just do your best and that's the best you can do, they say.
But there is a real disconnect between Jesus words and a humans response.
The key is the definition of "perfect". Ask 10 religious people to name everything they can think of that is wrong or immoral. Now look at all the answers. Ask 100. How about 1000?

All we need to do is to look to Jesus. So, Matt 5:48 says be perfect. Be perfect in what? Everything? Just go back and read Matt 5 from the beginning to verse 48. Bingo. There is the answer.
Jesus is NOT saying we must perfectly follow the rules of church and society. No, he is saying we must be perfect in LOVE. God's love that is. Nearly every single command and teaching of Jesus has to do with loving God and everyone else around you whether friend, family, neighbor or enemy.

I saw how you highlighted that part about not needing scriptures....well there is alot of truth in that. You don't need a bible to love other people.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

If he was, he was referring to the same perfectionism Jesus did.
Young's Literal Translation Matthew 5:48
ye shall therefore be perfect, as your Father who is in the heavens is perfect.

It seems pretty clear that we are expected to be perfect in this verse. So the question remains?
How can one be perfect? There are thousands of things that I must abstain from. Its not possible.
This is the sentiment anybody would have, right? I have heard it numerous times in the last 30 years. Nobody's perfect, they say. You just do your best and that's the best you can do, they say.
But there is a real disconnect between Jesus words and a humans response.
The key is the definition of "perfect". Ask 10 religious people to name everything they can think of that is wrong or immoral. Now look at all the answers. Ask 100. How about 1000?

All we need to do is to look to Jesus. So, Matt 5:48 says be perfect. Be perfect in what? Everything? Just go back and read Matt 5 from the beginning to verse 48. Bingo. There is the answer.
Jesus is NOT saying we must perfectly follow the rules of church and society. No, he is saying we must be perfect in LOVE. God's love that is. Nearly every single command and teaching of Jesus has to do with loving God and everyone else around you whether friend, family, neighbor or enemy.

I saw how you highlighted that part about not needing scriptures....well there is alot of truth in that. You don't need a bible to love other people.

Sinless Perfection???

 

[Shempster]

Sinless Perfection???

Perfect in love, yes. But not the traditions of man.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Augustine was obsessive compulsive... and wrong. There is never a time when anybody does not need the scriptures

The content of the scripture is what is ultimately needed and that can produced without having the scriptures physically present is what Augustine is probably getting at, especially since Augustine absolutely valued the bible (How many times does he refer to it and how many commentaries and sermons did he give throughout his life time?). What he was recognising is the reality of his time (and the time of the Apostles and a great majority of Christian history) that access to the written word was not feasible for every member of the faith due to a lack of resources and education which did not allow for the freedom we have in that respect. To make the book itself absolutely necessary instead of the content would impugn the Apostles who did not strive to collect and hand us a definitive canon.