Was America founded on or meant to be Christian?

[sojourner4Christ]

What it is saying is that if Israel is faithful it *will be able to lend and not borrow.*

Be like Israel. Be faithful. Don’t borrow and then suffer for it. Be a lender and reap the blessings.

It's called 'RENDERING TO CAESAR WHAT IS CAESAR'S.'
That's what Jesus told me to do.

No, rather, what was the question that prompted that response from Jesus?

We will illustrate, via a look at the popular 'Jesus paid taxes' lie that is taught throughout evangelical Christianity. Religion has always been the tool of choice of tyrants to control the sheeple.

Jesus himself was accused of forbidding to pay taxes to Caesar at his trial (Luke 23:2). Notice these were not false witnesses who accused Jesus of not paying taxes, because every time a false witness accused Jesus, the scripture tells us it was a false witness (Mark 14:57-59). Where did Jesus forbid to pay taxes to Caesar?

In Mark 12:13-17, Jesus was asked if it was lawful to give taxes to Caesar or not. A silver coin, with Caesar's inscription on it, was shown to Christ. In this example, the Lord's answer requires everyone to make the determination as to what belongs to Caesar and what belongs to God;

Mark 12:17 "...Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's..."

Who did this silver coin belong to? Since the Scripture says, "The silver is mine, and the gold is mine, saith the LORD of hosts" (Haggai 2:8), that means that the silver coin shown to Jesus belonged to God. However, those who live, move, and have their being in the image of Caesar, as the disciples of the Pharisees did, will believe this coin belongs to Caesar instead. We are not to be deluded by the image of Caesar, but built-up in the image of Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 11:7; 15:49; 2 Cor. 3:18, Col. 3:10).

The $64,000 question of the hour for you to answer before the King is: Who did this silver coin belong to?

I both borrow and lend, and I'm okay with that.

God isn’t “okay with that.” Here’s what he says about interest (usury), credit, borrowing, and debt:

Exodus 22:25-27, "If thou lend money to any of my people that is poor by thee, thou shalt not be to him as an usurer, neither shalt thou lay upon him usury. If thou at all take thy neighbour's raiment to pledge, thou shalt deliver it unto him by that the sun goeth down: For that is his covering only, it is his raiment for his skin: wherein shall he sleep?"

Leviticus 25:36-37, "Take thou no usury of him, or increase: but fear thy God; that thy brother may live with thee. Thou shalt not give him thy money upon usury, nor lend him thy victuals for increase."

Deuteronomy 15:6; 28:12, "...thou shalt not borrow;"

Deuteronomy 15:1-3, "At the end of every seven years thou shalt make a release…Every creditor that lendeth ought unto his neighbour shall release it; he shall not exact it of his neighbour, or of his brother; because it is called the LORD'S release. Of a foreigner thou mayest exact it again: but that which is thine with thy brother thine hand shall release;"

Deuteronomy 23:19-20, "Thou shalt not lend upon usury to thy brother; usury of money, usury of victuals, usury of any thing that is lent upon usury: Unto a stranger thou mayest lend upon usury; but unto thy brother thou shalt not lend upon usury: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all that thou settest thine hand to in the land whither thou goest to possess it."

Deuteronomy 24:6, "No man shall take the nether or the upper millstone to pledge: for he taketh a man's life to pledge."

2 Kings 18:23, 31, the people refused to stand as surety (pledges) or give a gift (present) to the king

Nehemiah 5:3-5, "…We have mortgaged our lands, vineyards, and houses, that we might buy corn, because of the dearth… We have borrowed money for the king's tribute, and that upon our lands and vineyards…and, lo, we bring into bondage our sons and our daughters to be servants, and some of our daughters are brought unto bondage already: neither is it in our power to redeem them; for other men have our lands and vineyards."

Nehemiah 5:7, 10-11, "…and I rebuked the nobles, and the rulers, and said unto them, Ye exact usury, every one of his brother. And I set a great assembly against them. I likewise, and my brethren, and my servants, might exact of them money and corn: I pray you, let us leave off this usury. Restore, I pray you, to them, even this day, their lands, their vineyards, their oliveyards, and their houses, also the hundredth part of the money, and of the corn, the wine, and the oil, that ye exact of them.

Psalms 15:5, "He that putteth not out his money to usury, nor taketh reward against the innocent. He that doeth these things shall never be moved."

Proverbs 6:1, "My son, if thou be surety for thy friend, if thou hast stricken thy hand with a stranger,"

Proverbs 11:15, "He that is surety for a stranger shall smart for it: and he that hateth suretiship is sure."

Proverbs 22:7, "…the borrower is servant to the lender."

Proverbs 22:26, "Be not thou one of them that strike hands, or of them that are sureties for debts."

Proverbs 28:8, "He that by usury and unjust gain increaseth his substance, he shall gather it for him that will pity the poor."

Isaiah 24:1-3, "Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof. And it shall be…as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him. The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word."

Ezekiel 18:8,13, "He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man, he that… Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him."

Ezekiel 22:12-13, "In thee have they taken gifts to shed blood; thou hast taken usury and increase, and thou hast greedily gained of thy neighbours by extortion, and hast forgotten me, saith the Lord GOD. Behold, therefore I have smitten mine hand at thy dishonest gain which thou hast made, and at thy blood which hath been in the midst of thee."

Romans 13:8, "Owe no man any thing,"

Presently, you hail from Caesar’s world, because you speak as one of the world and have borne no evidence to the contrary. In fact, you offered evidence of your allegiance to the world (e.g. mortgages, loans, etc.). But do not despair, as there is a way out.

To be blunt about it, every bondman of Christ is presumed to be acting in the mode and character of a pagan (i.e., in commerce) because he has borne or given no evidence to the contrary. Is this not bearing false witness? In other words, when a man professes to be a follower and ambassador of Christ and yet acts in a manner that tells the whole world that he is a pagan, then he is bearing false witness to the whole world. These Christians honor God with their lips, but their heart is far from him (Isa. 29:13; Mat. 15:8; Mark 7:6).

If your reaction to being told that there are faults in Caesar's statutes is to rush to defend them, it is because you cannot envision life without them. This is normal for someone who can only see one kingdom: the kingdom of this world. Yet this world is passing away, as are our own bodies. There is only one thing in life more certain than Caesar's taxes. So we are really here as a test of whether we can “see” and then choose those things that have eternal value. Are our energies devoted to laying up earthly treasures, or treasures in heaven? Are we slaves devoted to building the kingdom of this world, or are we seeking first the kingdom of God? We cannot even know where to begin unless we can see God's kingdom, which is the true meaning of being born again.

God in his sovereignty has provided the perfect means of testing whether we can make the distinction between the two kingdoms. Caesar has usurped God's authority, but his kingdom is built entirely with our consent and by using legal fictions. His authority over us is imaginary. We do not have to render ourselves to him unless we believe that we belong to him. Most people believe with all their heart that they do, for they cannot see the alternative. But if you know that you belong to God, along with your labor, your family, and everything else you have, then you will already have a deep-seated unease with the multitude of demands Caesar makes on you.

If this is the case, then make a list of those things that rightly belong to God but you have in ignorance given to Caesar. Then develop a plan of action for returning them to their rightful owner. This is not easy, but it is necessary. You will need to learn much more about God's Law so that you can discern what true obedience requires of you. If you trust the State to provide for your needs rather than trusting God, it should be clear which master you are serving. As no man can serve two masters, you have a choice to make. Scripture is clear that obedience to God comes at a price, and we must first count the cost. But once you can see the eternal kingdom, you will realize that any price is worth it.

Mat. 13:44, “The kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.”

 

[smaneck]

Be like Israel. Be faithful. Don’t borrow and then suffer for it. Be a lender and reap the blessings.

You do such an amazing job turning scripture on its head! But I'm not going to beat a dead horse.

No, rather, what was the question that prompted that response from Jesus?

Should we pay taxes to Ceasar?

To illustrate, the popular 'Jesus paid taxes' lie is taught throughout evangelical Christianity. Religion has always been the tool of choice of tyrants to control the sheeple.

Historical Christianity taught it long before the Evangelicals.

Jesus himself was accused of forbidding to pay taxes to Caesar at his trial (Luke 23:2).

And you believe them?

Notice these were not false witnesses who accused Jesus of not paying taxes,

Where does it say that?

because every time a false witness accused Jesus, the scripture tells us it was a false witness (Mark 14:57-59).

That is an entirely different Gospel written by a different author. He's the *only* one who says anything about false witnesses at Jesus' trial. He says there were numerous ones but only bothers to give us one example of this. That's hardly 'every time.' In any case, Mark's Gospel makes not mention of Jesus being accused of telling people not to pay taxes.

In Mark 12:13-17, Jesus was asked if it was lawful to give taxes to Caesar or not. A silver coin, with Caesar's inscription on it, was shown to Christ. In this example, the Lord's answer requires everyone to make the determination as to what belongs to Caesar and what belongs to God;

Mark 12:17 "...Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's..."

Who did this silver coin belong to? Since the Scripture says, "The silver is mine, and the gold is mine

Nice try, turning scripture on its head once again, but Jesus specifically asks whose face is on the coin, and then when told it is Ceasar face, says we should render to Ceasar the things that are Ceasars's.

Exodus 22:25-27, "If thou lend money to any of my people that is poor by thee, thou shalt not be to him as an usurer,

I'm glad we agree that lending money to the poor with interest is unbiblical.

 

[sojourner4Christ]

Should we pay taxes to Ceasar?

Those who look to Caesar's "face," will indeed render to Caesar.

Christ determined the question, and evaded the snare, by referring them to their national concessions already made, by which they were precluded from disputing this matter, v. 15-17. He knew their hypocrisy, the malice that was in their hearts against him, while with their mouth they showed all this love. Hypocrisy, though ever so artfully managed, cannot be concealed from the Lord Jesus. He sees the potsherd that is covered with the silver dross. He knew they intended to ensnare him, and therefore contrived the matter so as to ensnare them, and to oblige them by their own words to do what they were unwilling to do, which was, to pay their taxes honestly and quietly, and yet at the same time to screen himself against their exceptions. He made them acknowledge that the current money of their nation was Roman money, had the emperor's image on one side, and his superscription on the reverse; - Matthew Henry.

To reprise, the $64,000 question of the hour for you to answer before the King is: Who did this silver coin belong to?

Your self-justifying retort is, again, void of scripture.

 

[mafwons]

Those who look to Caesar's "face," will indeed render to Caesar.

Christ determined the question, and evaded the snare, by referring them to their national concessions already made, by which they were precluded from disputing this matter, v. 15-17. He knew their hypocrisy, the malice that was in their hearts against him, while with their mouth they showed all this love. Hypocrisy, though ever so artfully managed, cannot be concealed from the Lord Jesus. He sees the potsherd that is covered with the silver dross. He knew they intended to ensnare him, and therefore contrived the matter so as to ensnare them, and to oblige them by their own words to do what they were unwilling to do, which was, to pay their taxes honestly and quietly, and yet at the same time to screen himself against their exceptions. He made them acknowledge that the current money of their nation was Roman money, had the emperor's image on one side, and his superscription on the reverse; - Matthew Henry.

To reprise, the $64,000 question of the hour for you to answer before the King is: Who did this silver coin belong to?

Your self-justifying retort is, again, void of scripture.

One question, was Paul of Tarsus not a Roman citizen, and did he not take advantage of that fact on occasion? (Sorry that's two questions)

 

[sojourner4Christ]

One question, was Paul of Tarsus not a Roman citizen, and did he not take advantage of that fact on occasion? (Sorry that's two questions)

The pertinent question involved the definition and duties of citizenship. That was answered, in large part, back at post #242.

Further, in light of clear scriptural precedent in dealing with the governing authorities, much of the material I read, and the attitudes I see on the part of people who claim to be Christians, is discouraging. Yes, USA is presently going down the tubes, by design. However, this trend is a transitory and fleeting temporal issue reflecting a fundamentally spiritual problem.

Christ spent his entire life in a region occupied by troops of a foreign conqueror. Hence, his message was delivered in an occupied country. Still, the gospel records indicate that he never gave the slightest support to any movement aimed at a military revolution that might bring national freedom.

Even as it was in Imperial Roman occupied Israel, so it is in America today. It's a matter of humility and repentance before God. A much quoted verse, to the point it has almost lost its meaning, says this,

2 Chronicles 7:14, "If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."

Yet many fail to see who this is directed at. Not the unbelievers, not the Liberals, not the anarchists and anti-authority types, not the atheists. The Lord is saying, “My people.”

The American culture is obsessed with salvation by politics. We as a corporate body cannot comprehend any other way of changing the culture. They do not understand that God changes cultures by the preaching of the Word. Nineveh's culture was not changed by Jonah getting elected king or arguing that Nineveh stop socialism or stealing from her citizens. It was changed when God ordered him to preach.

William Penn said, “Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants.” Franklin Sanders once said, “So what is the answer? The only answer to every need of sinful humanity: the Gospel. The hearts of America must be changed, and the nation brought to obedience to God. All other changes, including gun-toting militias, are merely cosmetic."

God hates compromise and fear, as these are traits imputed to simple unbelief. He also hates insubordination and contempt of lawful authority by his people. Note well his rebuke of King Saul,

I Samuel 15:23, “For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king."

Both Jesus and Paul recognized the primacy of the spiritual realm as the command sphere in their outreach to the world around them, the paramount fundamental purposes and work of the Father in their lives, and the rule of correction by the Sovereign Hand of God wrought through the oppressive Imperial Roman Army over their nation and stratum of influence. Yet, their relationship with the Local and Federal law enforcement community was not unfriendly nor antagonistic, but a mutually counterbalanced combination of Supremely ordained forces working to accomplish the Will of God in the world. As solid spiritual leaders, they operated in the midst, right out in front of God and everybody, in spite of the Roman Federal force.

Moreover, it is significant that although given the opportunity to do so, none of the New Testament saints - nor even Jesus - are ever seen informing a military convert that he needed to resign from his line of work (Matthew 8:5-13; Luke 3:14).

The policy and precedent of Jesus and Paul concerning interaction with law enforcement, both Local and Federal, is pretty clear. The Lord used the Feds to Providentially protect his people, and his work, and saved Paul's' skin more than once. One day he may use them to save yours.

 

[mafwons]

I agree with the vast majority of what you said but am a bit confused at the end. I take it to mean that you agree that Paul was a Roman citizen and that he took advantage of it. What does this mean for American citizens and what of it?

 

[sojourner4Christ]

I agree with the vast majority of what you said but am a bit confused at the end. I take it to mean that you agree that Paul was a Roman citizen and that he took advantage of it. What does this mean for American citizens and what of it?

Well, with that comment, you've highlighted the gist of both the OP and the present situation facing Caesar's US citizens today.

Firstly, as documented, Paul's "citizenship" is not equivalent to today's Caesarian citizenship via the constitution.

Secondly, it's obvious that the USA constitution does not address the born again believer or his Sovereign, as God is not even mentioned in that contract. The problem is, both born again believers and unbelievers continue to look to that humanistic document as their authority, utilizing a variety of worldly justifications.

Thirdly, people are unaware of what scripture tells us is the purpose of ungodly authority and of what the born again's proper response to it should be.

Every action runs to some purpose. Either the constitution is of the Spirit of Christ, or it is of the spirit of antichrist. There is no neutrality. What saith Scripture?

Satan is a merchandiser (Ezekiel 28:16), a trafficker (Ezekiel 28:18). Satan offered all the kingdoms of the world to Jesus in the wilderness:

“Again, the devil taketh [Jesus] up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me” (Matthew 4:8, 9).

The merchants, the kings of the earth, sell souls of men (Revelation 18:11-13). They also sell the persons of men (Ezekiel 27:8); person = Latin persona = status; reputation; an actor’s mask These rich men are deceitful; they buy the poor and needy and they use false balances, balances of deceit (Amos 8:4-6; Micah 6:10-12; Hosea 12:7). They love to oppress (Amos 2:6). Merchants and sellers violate the sabbath (Nehemiah 13:15-20). The deeds of the rich are wicked (Micah 2:1-9).

Anyone who engages in commerce (profiteering; pursuit of mammon) comes under Caesar's jurisdiction (“Caesar” = ungodly government). The merchants, the rich men of the earth, the great men of the earth, are identified with the ungodly authority:

“The kings set themselves, and the rulers take counsel against the Lord and his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us” (Psalm 2:2, 3).

“Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.... Lord, behold their threatenings...” (Acts 4:25, 26, 29).

“Israel hath cast off the thing that is good: the enemy shall pursue him. They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not: of their silver and their gold have they made them idols, that they may be cut off” (Hosea 8:3, 4).

This is where many stumble with the reality that there is a counterfeit “authority” seeking our obeisance. Satan said, “I will be like the most High” (Isaiah 14:14).

It is Satan’s “higher power” which is behind the merchants, the rich men of the earth, the present temporal “governing authorities.”

Satan is “the god of this world” (II Corinthians 4:4), “this present evil world” (Galatians 1:4); there is no Godly ordination there.

We have a choice as to which purported authority we submit to and therefore “serve.” God’s authority is above all the “government institutions” of men.

Why does God “allow” ungodly “governments?” What is the purpose of man's law? It is God's rod of correction. God uses man's law to chasten his people. God uses heathens to chasten his people.

We are to place ourselves under God’s jurisdiction, living in God’s kingdom. And we're not going to be perfect, we may fall and do wrong, but we are to check everything that we're doing. And if we do something that's against God's Word, we repent immediately to renew our mind. That's how we renew our mind, by repenting to the King and saying, "I'm sorry. I did not want to do that. It's a habit, it's the way that I learned in the world. Help break me of that." And he does help us if our heart is truly after Him. And if you don't repent, he has the natural man right there as a rod of correction for you, and that's what man's codes, rules and regulations are all about.

If we be without chastisement, we would not be his sons. But he loves us, so God uses a rod of correction to wake the sleeping disciple and get him back on course.

Proverbs 22:15, "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him."

Proverbs 23:13, "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die."

As we know, everything the Lord allows to exist is for His purposes. Why does man's law exist? Why do people look to it for truth? It's simply because they've turned their backs on the Lord and his Law.

In the plan of God, the humanist has always been God's rod to wake the sleeping disciple and get him back on course. If man is the center of 'the world,' and he created all these legal personalities, then the police power is God's rod of correction to get you out of the world, to make things a hotbed of coals to where it is uncomfortable for you to stay there. So, if you're going to come out of the world, then you shed, what is called, all those legal personalities that the world has placed upon you, and you do not answer to them anymore, because your mind has been renewed in the mind of Christ (Ephesians 4:23, Colossians 3:10).

An officer does need a warrant in law to do what he is doing. However, if you're in the wrong place, doing the wrong thing, and partaking of the unclean things, then that man (who you say is ungodly, doing ungodly things against you) is actually God's rod of correction to drive you back to where you should be. If you're not chastened by our Father, then you're a bastard, meaning you're a son of the world, and you will not share the privileges of God's children.

Hebrews 12:8, "But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons."

Job 5:17, "Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty:"

Again, what is the purpose of man's law? It is God's rod of correction. God uses man's law to chasten His people. God uses heathens to chasten His people.

Psalms 125:3, "For the rod of the wicked shall not rest upon the lot of the righteous; lest the righteous put forth their hands unto iniquity."

Psalms 106:39-48, "Thus were they defiled with their own works, and went a whoring with their own inventions. Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against his people, insomuch that he abhorred his own inheritance. And he gave them into the hand of the heathen; and they that hated them ruled over them. Their enemies also oppressed them, and they were brought into subjection under their hand. Many times did he deliver them; but they provoked him with their counsel, and were brought low for their iniquity. Nevertheless he regarded their affliction, when he heard their cry: And he remembered for them his covenant, and repented according to the multitude of his mercies. He made them also to be pitied of all those that carried them captives. Save us, O LORD our God, and gather us from among the heathen, to give thanks unto thy holy name, and to triumph in thy praise. Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting to everlasting: and let all the people say, Amen. Praise ye the LORD."

Ezekiel 31:11, "I have therefore delivered him into the hand of the mighty one of the heathen; he shall surely deal with him: I have driven him out for his wickedness."

Ezekiel 39:27-28, "When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations; Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen..."

So, even though you may be righteous and you're following his ways, as soon as you put your hands into iniquity, "the rod of the wicked" (that's His rod) will be there to drive you back to him.

2 Samuel 7:14, "I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son. And when he happens to transgress, then will I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the sons of men:"

Even though we're his son, if we walk away from his Law, he will use "the rod of men" to chasten us and drive us back to Him. Gentile and Pagan armies may be God's armies. For example, the Chaldeans who destroyed Zion are called "His army" (Joel 2:11); the Assyrians are called "the rod of mine anger" (Isaiah 10:5); and the Medes under Cyrus are termed God's "sanctified ones" and "mighty ones" for His anger (Isaiah 13:3, 17). Likewise, Jacob (i.e. the nation of Israel) is the Lord's "battle ax" and "weapons of war" that he uses to chastise other nations (Jeremiah 51:20).

Proverbs 22:15, "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him."

It is foolish to partake of the ways of the world, and "the rod of correction" will drive that from us. What's interesting is that scripture shows us how God will use the ungodly as a rod of correction, but the natural man doesn't realize that they're there for God's purpose. Isaiah 10:5-15 shows that even though God will use the king of Assyria to drive his people back to him, the king doesn't know it. He boasts about how powerful he is and attributes everything to himself, but he's actually God's rod of correction, just like all governments are.

Again, what is the purpose of God's rod of correction?

Jeremiah 5:3, "O LORD, are not thine eyes upon the truth? thou hast stricken them, but they have not grieved; thou hast consumed them, but they have refused to receive correction: they have made their faces harder than a rock; they have refused to return."

So, we see his rod of correction is to return us to him. And we also see from this passage that there are many who will not be driven back to him by it. But don't despise his chastening.

Proverbs 3:11-12, "My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction: For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth."

It is important to understand that the purpose of God allowing "Caesar" (i.e. ungodly government) to be in power is to test and prove his children, to see if they will keep the Laws of God or the laws of the heathen (Judges 2:21; 3:4).

 

[mafwons]

I think I get the idea of what you are saying, but I'm not sure, it hets kind of confusing in places. So Paul's Roman citizenship somehow differs from our American citizenship?

I have researched some of what you have said in other posts and taking this in it leaves me scratching my head. I think you are getting at somthing I'm just not sure what.

 

[sojourner4Christ]

I think I get the idea of what you are saying, but I'm not sure, it hets kind of confusing in places.

We know who the author of confusion is. If there are questions, then bring them out and we'll take a look.

So Paul's Roman citizenship somehow differs from our American citizenship?

Different animals, with Caesar offering differing levels of "protection."

I have researched some of what you have said in other posts and taking this in it leaves me scratching my head. I think you are getting at somthing I'm just not sure what.

Yes. Well, do I need to ask how many people enjoy gov't jack-booted thugs banging down their castle door? People are becoming more inclined to actually listen now, as opposed to then, because, for many, the threatened persecution has come home to roost -- while the rich men of the earth continue to pile up treasure for the last days.

So we proceed cautiously, redeeming the time. Breaking through the conditioning, the bulwark that is the myth of Godly gov't via the USA constitution is, in itself, a herculean task. The power of the lie is strong, and the time short.

Take a look at the legal definition of citizen here. Notice that the very first word listed in the def is persons (not people). Every single rule, regulation, code, ordinance, law of Caesar's, as per his constitution, which addresses person or persons, is referencing those dead-at-law people who have submitted themselves to Caesar's jurisdiction and thus pledged themselves as surety against the corporate debt that is Caesar.

No man can serve two masters.

Caesar cannot touch the free man in Christ without that man's consent. USA Inc., the corporation, the dead thing, must first convert the free living man in Christ into a dead thing, like Caesar himself, before he can acquire jurdisdiction over that man of God. No one would willingly sign on for such a program that leads to death, so deception must necessarily be employed.

As I posted previously in another thread, one's name is fundamental to the jurisdiction one comes under.

Names, in general, are given by those in authority to those in subjection to that authority, to mark and note them.

God calls his servants by name (Isaiah 43:1; 45:3; John 10:3, Revelation 2:17). Everyone’s name is sacred, it demands respect as a sign of the dignity of the one who bears it. Now, here’s a question for you, dear reader. Have you ever, in your entire life, "signed" your name in ALL CAPITAL LETTERS? Of course not! Haven’t you always used both upper and lower case letters to sign your name? Yes. And why is that? Because that is what you have been taught since a child. Because the standard Rule of Law governing the use of English Grammar states that the correct Capitalization of Proper Names must begin with a capital letter, and the rest of the name must be spelled in smaller case letters. At Law, this lets others know you are an entity created by God, and not an entity created by man.

Now, there are entities created by man. Corporations for example. Corporations are known as "persons" (i.e. persona, status, in Caesar's world) created by the government. They are created on a piece of paper and brought into existence by the government. To differentiate between those created by God and those created by the government, those created by the government have their names spelled in ALL CAPITAL LETTERS. This lets others know that this entity does not have a body, soul, and spirit like man has, but that this is a fictitious entity created for the purpose of making a profit. This is commonly known as a legal fiction. The names of ALL corporations, when registered officially with the forum State, are required to be listed in ALL CAPS.

Now, if you look, for example, at a license or credit card or any other commercial instrument, you will notice the name that appears on it is spelled in all capital letters! What this means, at law, is that the entity that is named on this license is a creature of the government, and not a creature of God. It means that entity is a servant of Caesar, and not a servant of God. In order to get a license, one must substitute one’s lawfully spelled name for a fictitiously spelled name; you must deny the name given to you by God, and accept a name given to you by Caesar in its place. Since your name is not spelled in all capital letters, the name that appears on a license is not yours! That strawman is not who you are. And you must lie and say that this name is yours to get a license.

James 2:6-7, "…Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats? Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?"

We've been warned, from the time of the Jews who, seeking to kill Jesus, pursued him using a tactic that involved taking hold of his words (the body snatching would follow as the intended consequence)...

And [the Jews] watched him, and sent forth spies, which should feign themselves just men, that they might take hold of his words so that they might deliver him unto the power and authority of the governor...And they could not take hold of his words before the people... (Luke 20:20, 26).

...to today when greedy men use legal fictions to monetize us...

And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you (2 Peter 2:3).

...to the end times merchants, who have been freely buying and selling the souls of men...

...the merchants of the earth...mourn over [Babylon]; for no man buyeth their merchandise anymore: the...souls of men. (Rev. 18:11, 13).]

 

[mafwons]

We know who the author of confusion is. If there are questions, then bring them out and we'll take a look.Different animals, with Caesar offering differing levels of "protection."Yes. Well, do I need to ask how many people enjoy gov't jack-booted thugs banging down their castle door? People are becoming more inclinded to actually listen now, as opposed to then, because, for many, the threatened persecution has come home to roost -- while the rich men of the earth continue to pile up treasure for the last days.

So we proceed cautiously, redeeming the time. Breaking through the bulwark that is the myth of Godly gov't via the USA constitution is, in itself, a herculean task. The power of the lie is strong, and the time short.

I guess the thing I least understand is why you believe our current government is any worse than the Roman government, they both serve Satan in a way. As you say do not believe we have a Godly goverbmenrt via the constitution, but the Roman government was no more Godly.

 

[sojourner4Christ]

I guess the thing I least understand is why you believe our current government is any worse than the Roman government, they both serve Satan in a way. As you say do not believe we have a Godly goverbmenrt via the constitution, but the Roman government was no more Godly.

Indeed. So why should a born again believer be found rendering to either gov't? Who is twisting what (e.g. USA Inc.'s constitution), what forces have been brought to bear, to deceive the born again into serving an ungodly master? Should we continue sinning that grace might abound? What is the definition of ecclesia?

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.

 

[TheBear]

That's a weird parable and Jesus was saying the words of a character in the parable.

Correct. It was a parable, meant to teach a lesson. Now what lesson Jesus was trying to teach by those words? Could it be anything other than the obvious - submit to my authority or die?

You can do better than that.

This isn't about me, so please stop with the personal remarks. Thanks.

 

[Albion]

I have read that the freedom of religion clause was not originally going to be in the First Amendment. It was added after a Baptist named John Leland convinced James Madison to put it in. I do not know the historical accuracy of this though.

An earlier draft was worded to prohibit favoritism between denominations. That got changed so that it wouldn't be a matter of denominations. Court decisions have now expanded that to eliminate guarantees of one's right to practice his religion, whatever it may be.

America is a Christian nation in the sense that it was based on Christian principles.

That's right.

 

[sojourner4Christ]

Court decisions have now expanded that to eliminate guarantees of one's right to practice his religion, whatever it may be.

Caesar has jurisdiction over all "religious" arguments.

 

[Queller]

That's right.

Really? Which specifically Christian principles would those be?

 

[Albion]

Really? Which specifically Christian principles would those be?

I have maintained throughout this misguided discussion that if a person knows history, he knows that America was founded by people intent upon having the place be a Christian land. That's true whether we are thinking of the Jamestown colony or the New England colonies. Those people were steeped in Christian principles, their written documents gave testimony to it, and their laws reflected it. There is really no question about that being the case.

Did they live up to everything any Christian anywhere should? No, but then that wasn't the question. Did this commitment change to some degree as history moved along? Yes, but that wasn't the question either.

 

[mafwons]

I have maintained throughout this misguided discussion that if a person knows history, he knows that America was founded by people intent upon having the place be a Christian land. That's true whether we are thinking of the Jamestown colony or the New England colonies. Those people were steeped in Christian principles, their written documents gave testimony to it, and their laws reflected it. There is really no question about that being the case.

Did they live up to everything any Christian anywhere should? No, but then that wasn't the question. Did this commitment change to some degree as history moved along? Yes, but that wasn't the question either.

This is false, that is not an opinion, just fact.

 

[Albion]

This is false, that is not an opinion, just fact.

As I said, it takes some familiarity with American history to know that it's true.



I think you described your own situation pretty well when you wrote this:

I think I get the idea of what you are saying, but I'm not sure, it hets kind of confusing in places....I have researched some of what you have said in other posts and taking this in it leaves me scratching my head. I think you are getting at somthing I'm just not sure what.

 

[Queller]

I have maintained throughout this misguided discussion that if a person knows history, he knows that America was founded by people intent upon having the place be a Christian land. That's true whether we are thinking of the Jamestown colony or the New England colonies. Those people were steeped in Christian principles, their written documents gave testimony to it, and their laws reflected it. There is really no question about that being the case.

Then you should have no problem giving a couple of examples of the specifically Christian principles this country was founded upon. Why do you balk at this seemingly simple request?

 

[mafwons]

As I said, it takes some familiarity with American history to know that it's true.

I think you described your own situation pretty well when you wrote this:

Nice. That was not a reference to my understanding of american history, but to her understanding of it. I have an excellent grasp on american history. American history has been a passion of mine since I was a young child, it was not until I got a bit of maturity that I could see the record and the stories do not match. Our country very loosely has some juedeo christian principles strewn in to its ideals and legal code, but even at that strict adherence is not required of our government. All countries are like this, I could claim the U.S.S.R. was founded on these same "Christian ideals" using that argument, based on the fact that murder was unlawful, therefore they were keeping one of the 10 commandments.