Was America founded on or meant to be Christian?

sojourner4Christ

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Despite what Sojourner says, the biggest condemnations in the Bible are not aimed at those who fall into debt but rather those who engage in predatory lending exploiting the poor.
Dead wrong. No one "falls" into debt. You make the choice and then Caesar's "useful idiots" are there to make sure you get bled thoroughly.

Well...then change your means....So...in many ways, if you can't make ends meet, then something needs to change. What can YOU change about your circumstances?
Excellent advice.

You realize that nowadays it is virtually impossible to get an education without going deeply into debt? Wasn't the case when you and I were young.
An education, for what purpose? To get a Caesarian sheepskin to enable you to go out into the world and more effectively become a part of it? "A better job in order to borrow more money?" etc. etc.
 
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RedPonyDriver

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You realize that nowadays it is virtually impossible to get an education without going deeply into debt? Wasn't the case when you and I were young.

True...I went through school on scholarships and summer jobs and co-ops/internships. Both my masters were paid for by employers. However, my nephew is a journeyman electrician, he did his apprenticeship through the union hall. The kid is 24 and makes BANK! He and his wife have a little boy, a nice house, couple of cars. He got paid for his apprenticeship. It took him 4 years of working his tail off as an apprentice to start climbing the ladder. He needs a few more years experience before he can sit for his Master's test. At that point, he will be a licensed master electrician and those guys make SERIOUS money.

There's also going in the military. GI Bill is a good deal. You do 4 years and you get a college education and they pay you BAH while you're there. Another nephew scored a BA in Business Administration doing that. His boss is paying for his MBA.

There are many options besides student loans and going eyeball deep into debt to get some sort of education. Here where I live there's a HUGE apprentice school for carpenters. Look at the options...there's many out there.
 
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RedPonyDriver

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Dead wrong. No one "falls" into debt. You make the choice and then Caesar's "useful idiots" are there to make sure you get bled thoroughly.

Excellent advice.

An education, for what purpose? To get a Caesarian sheepskin to enable you to go out into the world and more effectively become a part of it? "A better job in order to borrow more money?" etc. etc.

Regarding the bolded above...

No...education = more $ = less/no debt. I make low 6 figures per year. Again, I have NO debt. But then again, I'm not into the consumer culture. The last time I bought a brand new car was 2003...paid cash. Every modification I've made to it has been paid in cash (I'm ashamed to admit how much I've spent on the car), I don't own a house (its cheaper and easier to rent). My most expensive "bill" is renewing my professional licenses and the continuing education I need to have to be able to renew those licenses. My next biggest bill is the vet/food/grooming bills for my critters.

It's not a "hardship" to live simply. Its rather freeing. Secondhand shops are THE BEST!!! I learned to go to the ones in the upscale neighborhoods and score the designer castoffs. I'm a vegan/vegetarian so food is pretty cheap and simple too.

But then again, I'm a product of my upbringing. My parents were the same way as we were growing up...
 
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sojourner4Christ

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No...education = more $ = less/no debt.
Supposed to be, anyway. We'd need to define "education."
I have NO debt. But then again, I'm not into the consumer culture.
Same here. And yes, they call us "consumers" because, like locusts, we CONSUME everything.
The last time I bought a brand new car was 2003...paid cash.
Used car, 1991 model, paid cash.
I don't own a house (its cheaper and easier to rent).
Same here. And have not paid any rent since 2001.
It's not a "hardship" to live simply. Its rather freeing. Secondhand shops are THE BEST!!! I learned to go to the ones in the upscale neighborhoods and score the designer castoffs. I'm a vegan/vegetarian so food is pretty cheap and simple too.
Ditto on ALL of that, also! Totally liberating!
 
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FaithfulPilgrim

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I have read that the freedom of religion clause was not originally going to be in the First Amendment. It was added after a Baptist named John Leland convinced James Madison to put it in. I do not know the historical accuracy of this though.

America is a Christian nation in the sense that it was based on Christian principles. Following Christ has to be a choice and denying that choice for someone is not Christian.

Christianity is about freedom. Freedom to accept or reject Christ, freedom to live a Christian life, freedom to worship, and the freedom to attend church and any church you like.

This freedom also applies to non- Christians. They have the freedom not to follow Christ and to express their beliefs so long as it does not harm others. They are free to not go to church.

Like I stated previously, following Christ must be a choice, and a person must have that choice.

However, the Founding Fathers did not intend for the nation to be a theocracy.

American history and Christianity has led me from fundamentalist theoconservatism to libertarianism.
 
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TheBear

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Way off topic, guys.

Indeed.

After reading the last several pages, I forgot where I was. For a second I thought we were talking about the guy who lives in a van down by the river ... or, in a church basement. :D


Back on topic -

So far, I've brought up two in a list of many tenets; freedom of speech and freedom of religion. I only got one reply to the former - "hospitality" ... which is a real stretch,. Freedom of religion hasn't even been touched.

The way it's going, I doubt I'll be able to get to the other tenets.
 
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TheBear

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This freedom also applies to non- Christians. They have the freedom not to follow Christ and to express their beliefs so long as it does not harm others. They are free to not go to church.

Not according to Jesus.


Luke 19:27 -

"But these enemies of mine, those who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence."
 
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ChristsSoldier115

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But the US government has no trouble spending trillions of dollars on defence.

The US has a bigger military than the next TEN countries put together. [check it out for yourself]

There are new tanks parked up because the army does not want them, a parking lot for more than 2,000 M-1 Abrams tanks about an hour's drive north of Reno, Nevada, the tanks have been collecting dust in the hot California desert because of a tiff between the Army and Congress.

The U.S. has more than enough combat tanks in the field to meet the nation's defense needs - so there's no sense in making repairs to these now, the Army's chief of staff Gen. Raymond T. Odierno told Congress earlier this year.

If the Pentagon holds off repairing, refurbishing or making new tanks for three years until new technologies are developed, the Army says it can save taxpayers as much as $3 billion.

That may seem like a lot of money, but it's a tiny sacrifice for a Defense Department that will cut $500 billion from its budget over the next decade and may be forced to cut a further $500 billion if a deficit cutting deal is not reached by Congress.

Too many retired military buddy-buddy with defense contractors that have the ears of the pentagon to waste money on nonsensical programs.

Our company bought 8 robots to check for IEDs. When they deployed all 8 robots sat back in a connex on post. They never left motorpool, let alone the country. Each robot cost about $500,000 by the way.
 
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Belk

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True...I went through school on scholarships and summer jobs and co-ops/internships. Both my masters were paid for by employers. However, my nephew is a journeyman electrician, he did his apprenticeship through the union hall. The kid is 24 and makes BANK! He and his wife have a little boy, a nice house, couple of cars. He got paid for his apprenticeship. It took him 4 years of working his tail off as an apprentice to start climbing the ladder. He needs a few more years experience before he can sit for his Master's test. At that point, he will be a licensed master electrician and those guys make SERIOUS money.

There's also going in the military. GI Bill is a good deal. You do 4 years and you get a college education and they pay you BAH while you're there. Another nephew scored a BA in Business Administration doing that. His boss is paying for his MBA.

There are many options besides student loans and going eyeball deep into debt to get some sort of education. Here where I live there's a HUGE apprentice school for carpenters. Look at the options...there's many out there.


Currently it is a good deal. Back when I was in the military you barely got enough money to pay for community college. A four year university was right out.
 
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smaneck

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Dead wrong. No one "falls" into debt. You make the choice and then Caesar's "useful idiots" are there to make sure you get bled thoroughly.

Yes, if you have an attack of appendicitis and no health insurance you can always choose to die.
 
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smaneck

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I think America was stolen by the Indian's. So I'm not getting how this land has anything to do with being founded or Christian.

I presume you mean stolen *from* the Indians. ;)

The moment Constantine had his vision of "under this sign conquer" Christianity ceased to be a nonviolent religion.
 
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smaneck

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And there is your fundamental error.

You've yet to provide any real evidence that Jesus didn't mean what He said here.

And that's why you're double minded over this issue presently

Not at all double-minded on this issue.

and living beyond your means.

No, I live within my means. I simply have no trouble borrowing, as long as the interest is low and provides me with the means to acquire more wealth.

Rather, God says, "Do not borrow." (Deu.).

If you are talking about Deut. 28:12, you've taken that verse completely out of context. It is not a command it is part of the "blessing" indicating that Israel as a nation will not have to borrow but instead will be able to lend to others. If borrowing were a sin, wouldn't lending be a sin as well?

You know better, but you disobeyed God anyway.

What I know is that you are twisting the scriptures beyond recognition.

But you don't own them.

Actually, I own three of them outright.

When and if you finish giving up the best years of your life paying into that mort+gage ("death pledge"), take a look at the deed.

Actually, my tenant's rent covers the mortgage, and the taxes, and the insurance, etc.

Try missing one tax payment and you will find out rather quickly who actually claims ownership of "your" stuff.

Why would I do that? That's what pays for the public schools in my neighborhood, for police and fire protection. Sometimes they even fix the pot holes in the street (though not often enough.) I may own my house, but I don't own the road which runs in front of it. I don't own the police who protect it. I don't own the school where my tenants send their kids. And the quality of the school is going to have a lot to do with the quality of tenants who want to live in my houses. Why shouldn't I continue to pay for those things?

THEY LIED TO YOU.

Who lied to me? No one ever told me that they wouldn't place a lien on my house if I failed to pay property taxes.

But consider these things and say, "Am I attached to these things through the Will of God or though the will of man?"

Not a matter of being attached. My religion teaches obedience to government and so does Christianity. I don't resent the taxes I pay in the least, even if I do try and keep them as low as possible.

That's what we're talking about. We need to proceed cautiously as the Spirit of God leads us, and don't make any rash decisions. You have to go to him and pray, because he will show you the way out of these things.

Out of what things? I don't feel trapped in the least.

The important thing is to know that they are not of God,


That's where we differ. I may not believe this country was founded on the basis of Christian principles but I still believe that the government's authority is God-given. If it was true of the Romans as both Paul and Jesus indicated, it is certainly true of the US!

Because it may not be visible in your neck of the woods, doesn't mean the NWO is a bust.

LOL. I happen to believe in a New World Order, I just don't think it will be based on world-wide capitalism and US dominance like what Bush Sr. was talking about. I believe it will be based on a genuine commitment to the Oneness of Humanity, to its welfare and dignity.

Near the end of The Book, we learn that NO ONE buys or sells (i.e. conducts commerce) without alignment with the beast.

Revelation is referring to something that the Romans were trying to do at the time. Has nothing to do with commerce itself.
 
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Red Fox

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I think America was stolen by the Indian's. So I'm not getting how this land has anything to do with being founded or Christian.

I think you meant 'taken from' the Indians. Yes, our ancestral homeland was taken away from us. We're still being oppressed, we are no longer free as our ancestors once were, with many of our people still living in the prisoner of war camps, better known as the Reservations, and many of them have third world living conditions. Being an NDN myself, I don't see this nation being founded on Christian principles at all. I see it being founded on the genocide of one race (the American Indian) and the enslavement of another (the African American). Let's not forget the catastrophic impact that earlier Christians living in America at that time had on the NDN nations and the cultural genocide that ensued (NDN Residential Schools), which still resonates among many NDNs today. When an NDN is told that they will have to deny everything NDN about themselves, so that they can be Christian and be saved, even be considered civilized, it is cultural genocide.
 
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CaDan

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Not according to Jesus.


Luke 19:27 -

"But these enemies of mine, those who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence."

That's a weird parable and Jesus was saying the words of a character in the parable.

You can do better than that.
 
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sojourner4Christ

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I simply have no trouble borrowing...
[and]
If you are talking about Deut. 28:12, you've taken that verse completely out of context. It is not a command it is part of the "blessing" indicating that Israel as a nation will not have to borrow but instead will be able to lend to others. If borrowing were a sin, wouldn't lending be a sin as well?
This claim of yours is especially troubling.

Let’s take a look at that chapter (Deu. chap. 28) to learn who has taken what “out of context.” First, have a read of the chapter for yourself here.

The chapter is a description of what will befall those who do NOT follow God’s commandments e.g. you will eat the flesh of your sons and daughters, etc. etc. It is an incredibly vivid description of what happens to those who pursue self-will rather than God’s will. AND, as a part of God’s judgment, it tells us that God will give those disobedient people over to the BONDAGE WROUGHT OF THE LENDERS. There are only two verses in that chapter that mention “lend”:

FIRST MENTION OF LEND:

The LORD shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not borrow. And the LORD shall make thee the head, and not the tail; and thou shalt be above only, and thou shalt not be beneath; if that thou hearken unto the commandments of the LORD thy God, which I command thee this day, to observe and to do them: (Deu 28:12-13).

SECOND MENTION OF LEND:

He shall lend to thee, and thou shalt not lend to him: he shall be the head, and thou shalt be the tail. (Deu 28:44).

Do you prefer being the tail and not the head? Do you understand the implications of that in your daily walk?

Consequence of Obedience: When they lend only, and do not borrow, they become the head and not the tail; they are above their enemies and not below them. (verses 12 & 13).

Consequence of Disobedience: When they borrow only, and do not lend, they become the tail and not the head; they are below their enemies and not above them. (verse 44).

The conclusion is obvious. The first part of your chapter details the blessings they would enjoy if they were OBEDIENT to God, and the second part of the chapter details the calamities they would endure if they were DISOBEDIENT to God.

And God’s preferred status for us, as LENDERS and NOT BORROWERS, as described in the first part of Deu. chap. 28, has been commented on by others:

They should have honour among their neighbours (v. 1): The Lord thy God will set thee on high above all nations. He made them so, by taking them into covenant with himself, ch. 26:19. And he would make them more and more so by their outward prosperity, if they would not by sin disparage themselves. Two things should help to make them great among the nations:-First, Their wealth (v. 12): "Thou shalt lend to many nations upon interest' (which they were allowed to take from the neighbouring nations), "but thou shalt not have occasion to borrow.” This would give them great influence with all about them; for the borrower is servant to the lender. It may be meant of trade and commerce, that they should export abundantly more than they should import, which would keep the balance on their side. Secondly, Their power (v. 13): "The Lord shall make thee the head, to give law to all about thee, to exact tribute, and to arbitrate all controversies.' Every sheaf should bow to theirs, which would make them so considerable that all the people of the earth would be afraid of them (v. 10), that is, would reverence their true grandeur, and dread making them their enemies. The flourishing of religion among them, and the blessing of God upon them, would make them formidable to all their neighbours, terrible as an army with banners. -- Matthew Henry

It doesn’t get any plainer than that. The listed consequences of the lend/borrow/debt issue rest with our obedience, or disobedience, to God’s commandments.

The borrower is servant to the lender. Do not borrow. Be a lender and not a borrower.

BTW, because the citizens of USA continue to violate God’s commandment (e.g. do not borrow), the consequences of that disobedience are listed in the second half of the cited passage, i.e. Deu. 28:15-68. Suffice to say, it’s a terrible and dreadful read.

The borrower is slave to the lender. Scripture is simple. Very simple. And usury is condemned. Period.

As you’ve been shown with scripture, it’s GOD’S absolute standard, not ours. You can scream “context” all day long, however, your failure to rebut from the word of God tells the true story.

The spirit of iniquity is an amazing phenomenon. The often colorful excuses are all based in self-will, rather than in God’s will; they are varied and endless. The denials usually begin with fleshly phrases such as “Personally, I do not believe...,” or, “In the context of...,” or, “That’s OT....,” and they never include scriptural imperatives that would support the practice of borrowing money -- because there aren’t any.
...[borrowing] provides me with the means to acquire more wealth.
It is important that we should remain separate from the unclean things of the commercial world. Our Father has made it clear that we cannot serve both him and mammon (wealth, riches, money, etc.). When men are pursuing riches, or "a living," they will often times do whatever it takes to get what they "want." It is that pursuit that we must avoid.

Merchants are condemned in scripture, because their mode of commerce not only involves thievery and war, but it also creates a form of slavery for those who are "captured" by it. Governments regulate all business and corporations, because commerce is thievery. Governments regulate the commerce of the merchants, as well as their "customers," in an attempt to keep the thievery and slavery at a manageable level. That is why those who engage in such activity are "presumed" guilty until proven innocent, because they are guilty according to God's Law.

Capitalism is a license to steal; the government simply regulates who steals and how much. Most of the governmental codes, rules, regulations, ordinances, statutes, public policies, etc., are designed to regulate those partaking of the ways of the lex mercatoria, the Law Merchant. That law, as distinguished from God's Law, is a private law.

The law recognizes the fact that men will naturally overstate the value and qualities of the articles which they have to sell. Kimball v. Bangs, 141 Mass. 323, Morton. C.J. ; Mooney v. Miller, 102 id. 220; Gordon v. Butler, 105 U.S. 557, Southern Development Co. v. Silva, 125 id. 256.

The world continually encourages everyone to join with and obey the Law Merchant. It continually offers the benefits of the world. When you look to man for your benefits, a duty attaches to you and man becomes your lord, lording over you. The "bait and switch" of the crafty serpent is this: the resulting duty greatly outweighs the benefit received! They can only give you a portion of that which they take from you to begin with! So you end up with less, and you give them more power because they're keeping a large percentage of it. And remember, the beast has no power except that which it is given by its obedient servants.

However, by not partaking of the commercial benefits that the world offers, we are not submitting ourselves to those particular laws governing commercial activity. Therefore, those laws do not apply to those who are not engaged in their mode of commercial activity.

To make a clarification, if God blesses us with riches that's one thing, but if we chase after riches that's another. Our life is not to revolve around gain, but around Christ. Why chase things that are temporal which will be lost anyway? We are to pursue a relationship with God, letting our soul be after him, and he will provide everything we need as we walk in his ways (Matthew 6:30, Luke 12:28, Philippians 4:19, Psalms 34:10).

Regarding “ownership” of “stuff,” you claimed to “own three of them outright.” I told you to look at the deed, where it lists you not as “owner” but as tenant. And the proof is the fact that you MUST CONTINUE PAYING or they will take what you would claim is yours.
Why would I [miss the tax payments]?... Why shouldn't I continue to pay for those things?
Rather, the truth is, you have no choice. It's called 'RENDERING TO CAESAR WHAT IS CAESAR'S.' You MUST pay, and pay again and again, otherwise “your” stuff will be taken from you -- with force, if necessary. The God-less State maintains an interest in what you think is your stuff. Like I said, they lied to you about being the “owner.” God, and not you, is the owner of everything.
My religion teaches obedience to government and so does Christianity.
So does my God teach obedience to his Godly government. But you need to figure out which master is the real deal, and then live your life in accord with his sole authority.
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
I don't feel trapped in the least.
Neither did those partying outside the ark...The truth of God’s word, rather than one’s feelings or financial savvy, is the born again’s guidepost.
 
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smaneck

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This claim of yours is especially troubling.

Let’s take a look at that chapter (Deu. chap. 28) to learn who has taken what “out of context.” First, have a read of the chapter for yourself here.

The chapter is a description of what will befall those who do NOT follow God’s commandments[/QUOTE]

That part doesn't start until verse 18. The verse talking about Israel never having to borrow but rather being able to lend to others is earlier where the blessings are given. And it is a blessing, not a command.

Do you prefer being the tail and not the head? Do you understand the implications of that in your daily walk?

I both borrow and lend, and I'm okay with that.

Consequence of Obedience: When they lend only, and do not borrow, they become the head and not the tail; they are above their enemies and not below them. (verses 12 & 13).

Missed the point. Deut. is not telling people to be money lenders nor is it prohibiting borrowing. What it is saying is that if Israel is faithful it *will be able to lend and not borrow.*

Personally I find this "I'll make you healthy, wealthy, and wise" theology to be rather vacuous myself, but I guess that reflects where the people were at the time.

The conclusion is obvious. The first part of your chapter details the blessings they would enjoy if they were OBEDIENT to God, and the second part of the chapter details the calamities they would endure if they were DISOBEDIENT to God.

That's exactly my point, being free from debt is a consequence of obedience but that passage is not at all prohibiting people from borrowing. Nor is it urging them to be money lending.

Merchants are condemned in scripture, because their mode of commerce not only involves thievery and war, but it also creates a form of slavery for those who are "captured" by it.


Actually it is mostly money lenders who are condemned, although they way you have interpreted Deut. 28 you are being commanded to become one.

It's called 'RENDERING TO CAESAR WHAT IS CAESAR'S.'

That's what Jesus told me to do.
 
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