Was America founded on or meant to be Christian?

[TheChristianSurvivalGuide]

As a land mass yes, but not as a country.

If this point really needs clarification, it's the OP's decision, not ours.

My OP was based on the current understanding of the actual origination of this nation, The United States of America. This would really begin with The Declaration of Independence.

That is not to say that The Colonies were not American, but that our current nation had not yet truly been born.

The contextual issue being the influences on pillars of current law and concept.

 

[TheChristianSurvivalGuide]

Hey. I don't really care if we talk about America at its founding OR if we talk about America at the point when it became independent of Britain. However, it's obvious to me that she didn't begin at the ratification of the Constitution, and it would help, IMHO, if we all agreed on what we're talking about. When the title says "America" and "founding," my inclination is to discuss that. But if others want to go off topic and discuss something else, so be it.

My reference to "founding" was specific to the Founding Fathers: wiki

Within the large group known as the "Founding Fathers", there are two key subsets, those who signed the Declaration of Independence in 1776 and those who framed the Constitution in 1787. A further subset includes those who signed the Articles of Confederation.[1]

 

[sojourner4Christ]

Oh, good -- so you are rendering unto Caesar. For a moment, it sounded like you weren't.

I’m not. And the reason why I’m not is because I choose to have nothing of his. As per scripture, I don’t strike hands with heathen and I do not engage in commercial activity.

(that raises the question of who paid for the ass and colt in Matthew 21:1-3... I must've missed that part.)

You must’ve, as there was no payment.

You pay him -- that's all the answer he needs or wants from you.

I repeat: I pay him no-thing because I owe him no-thing. Also, as my Master commands my allegiance, Caesar likewise commands allegiance from his citizens.

Defining terms is a good thing, Belk.. Everyone benefits because for one, it eliminates the guesswork and erroneous assumptions.

and

The contextual issue being the influences on pillars of current law and concept.

Now you’re getting somewhere. Definition of terms is the name of the game. The fix was in at the time the contract was drawn up. Covetous men shall with feigned words make merchandise of you (2 Pet. 2:3).

 

[hankroberts]

Sure I'll address the Op again.



Does it have Christian moral grounding? No, it does not as evident with its history thereafter.

The fact that you choose not to recognize them doesn't mean they don't exist: it merely reflects your unwillingness to acknowledge reality.

 

[smaneck]

I’m not. And the reason why I’m not is because I choose to have nothing of his. As per scripture, I don’t strike hands with heathen and I do not engage in commercial activity.You must’ve, as there was no payment.

I see. So like most Dominionists you follow the Old Testament over the New.

I repeat: I pay him no-thing because I owe him no-thing.

So you don't use American currency? Because that is the context in which Jesus said 'render under Ceasar the things that Ceasars."

Also, as my Master commands my allegiance, Caesar likewise commands allegiance from his citizens.

Hmmm. And what about Paul's admonishment:

Romans 13

1 Let every soul be in subjection to the higher powers: for there is no power but of God; and the powers that be are ordained of God.

2 Therefore he that resisteth the power, withstandeth the ordinance of God: and they that withstand shall receive to themselves judgment.

3 For rulers are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. And wouldest thou have no fear of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise from the same:

4 for he is a minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is a minister of God, an avenger for wrath to him that doeth evil.

5 Wherefore ye must needs be in subjection, not only because of the wrath, but also for conscience' sake.

6 For this cause ye pay tribute also; for they are ministers of God's service, attending continually upon this very thing.

7 Render to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.

You realize that Paul was referring to Roman authorities here?

 

[RedPonyDriver]

I’m not. And the reason why I’m not is because I choose to have nothing of his. As per scripture, I don’t strike hands with heathen and I do not engage in commercial activity.You must’ve, as there was no payment.
I repeat: I pay him no-thing because I owe him no-thing. Also, as my Master commands my allegiance, Caesar likewise commands allegiance from his citizens.
andNow you’re getting somewhere. Definition of terms is the name of the game. The fix was in at the time the contract was drawn up. Covetous men shall with feigned words make merchandise of you (2 Pet. 2:3).

So you don't work and you don't pay taxes? Interesting.

You don't have a social security card, driver's license, birth certificate, passport? Really?

Or do you work under the table?

I don't remember anywhere in the bible where Jesus said that was ok with him. Something about "render unto caesar...."

You have some very interesting views...

 

[smaneck]

You have some very interesting views...

According to DHS there are a lot more out there like him. That might be okay, if they didn't pack guns.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

According to DHS there are a lot more out there like him. That might be okay, if they didn't pack guns.

The domestic terrorists that DHS is talking about...yeah...the Sovereign Citizens and their ilk

 

[sojourner4Christ]

So you don't work and you don't pay taxes? Interesting.

Oh, I work, as a workman is worthy of his wages. But I don't owe Caesar any-thing, as I remain foreign to his jurisdiction.

You don't have a social security card, driver's license, birth certificate, passport? Really?

Really. Use of those commercial instruments, with their ALL CAPS legal fictions, cause joinder i.e. they bring you into Caesar's jurisdiction.

Or do you work under the table?

There is no "under the table." Everything is out in the open. I labor for the King and not for Caesar.

I don't remember anywhere in the bible where Jesus said that was ok with him. Something about "render unto caesar...."

Yet again, if you are partaking of Caesar's benefits packages, as most are, then you will indeed render to Caesar. I do not, so I do not.

You have some very interesting views...

Jesus Christ came to set the captives free. Most, however, do not understand that they have been taken captive at will by the enemy. They are vey nbust rendering to Caesar what is rightfully due Christ.

I see. So like most Dominionists you follow the Old Testament over the New.

In truth, you don’t see, otherwise you would have never made such a silly statement.

So you don't use American currency? Because that is the context in which Jesus said 'render under Ceasar the things that Ceasars."

I understand why you are at a loss here...

Hmmm. And what about Paul's admonishment:

Romans 13...

What about it? It couldn’t be any clearer, yet I will illustrate several misconceptions about the hackneyed “Romans 13” retort.

In Romans 13, does verse 1 say, "let every soul be subject unto all governments"? Or does it say, "let every soul (including governing authorities such as kings, judges, police, etc.) be subject unto the Higher Power"? Who do souls belong to? God says:

Ezekiel 18:4, "Behold, all souls are mine."

And the second part of verse 1 tells us Who the Higher Power is: "...For there is no power but of God."

The souls of the governmental powers belong to God, and they are not the higher powers, the higher powers are held by Christ himself (Matthew 28:18). Is our Lord not the higher power, then, if all power has been committed unto him (John 17:2)? Christ is the governor among the nations (Psalms 22:28). All power over earthly kings has been given unto him (Romans 14:9). All judgment has been given unto him (John 5:22,27). Notice the separation of Power in Romans 13:1. All power comes from, and belongs to, God (Psalm 62:11) and not the one exercising it. And remember that most men, especially those constituting the "governing authorities," usually deny that power given to Jesus (2 Timothy 3:5).

If your reaction to being told that there are faults in Caesar's statutes is to rush to defend them, it is because you cannot envision life without them. This is normal for someone who can only see one kingdom: the kingdom of this world. Yet this world is passing away, as are our own bodies. There is only one thing in life more certain than Caesar's taxes. So we are really here as a test of whether we can “see” and then choose those things that have eternal value. Are our energies devoted to laying up earthly treasures, or treasures in heaven? Are we slaves devoted to building the kingdom of this world, or are we seeking first the kingdom of God? We cannot even know where to begin unless we can see God's kingdom, which is the true meaning of being born again.

God in his sovereignty has provided the perfect means of testing whether we can make the distinction between the two kingdoms. Caesar has usurped God's authority, but his kingdom is built entirely with our consent and by using legal fictions. His authority over us is imaginary. We do not have to render ourselves to him unless we believe that we belong to him. Most people believe with all their heart that they do, for they cannot see the alternative. But if you know that you belong to God, along with your labor, your family, and everything else you have, then you will already have a deep-seated unease with the multitude of demands Caesar makes on you.

If this is the case, then make a list of those things that rightly belong to God but you have in ignorance given to Caesar. Then develop a plan of action for returning them to their rightful owner. This is not easy, but it is necessary. You will need to learn much more about God's Law so that you can discern what true obedience requires of you. If you trust the State to provide for your needs rather than trusting God, it should be clear which master you are serving. As no man can serve two masters, you have a choice to make. Scripture is clear that obedience to God comes at a price, and we must first count the cost. But once you can see the eternal kingdom, you will realize that any price is worth it.

The kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field. (Mat 13:44)

According to DHS there are a lot more out there like him. That might be okay, if they didn't pack guns.

That's what you get for listening to Caesar/DHS rather than to the King of kings -- a lifetime of living in fear. Choose this day who you will serve, but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

I sure don't live in fear...what happens, happens and God is in control. I have nothing that can't be replaced.

However, people like you do make me wonder...might be time for another GSD.

 

[sojourner4Christ]

However, people like you do make me wonder...

There's certainly nothing wrong with 'wondering.' For a truth seeker, 'wondering' usually precedes a desire and request for further info...

 

[RedPonyDriver]

There's certainly nothing wrong with 'wondering.' For a truth seeker, 'wondering' usually precedes a desire and request for further info...

No, not in your case...I don't need/want any further information from you and those who hold your sort of beliefs...there are other things I wonder about you.

 

[smaneck]

Oh, I work, as a workman is worthy of his wages. But I don't owe Caesar any-thing, as I remain foreign to his jurisdiction.

So you are not paid in US dollars?

Really. Use of those commercial instruments, with their ALL CAPS legal fictions, cause joinder i.e. they bring you into Caesar's jurisdiction.

Are you paid in gold and silver then?

Yet again, if you are partaking of Caesar's benefits packages, as most are, then you will indeed render to Caesar. I do not, so I do not.

Exactly what "benefit packages" were the Jews receiving from the Romans when Jesus told them to pay their taxes?

In Romans 13, does verse 1 say, "let every soul be subject unto all governments"? Or does it say, "let every soul (including governing authorities such as kings, judges, police, etc.) be subject unto the Higher Power"?

Sorry, he says "higher powers" in the plural not the singular.

That's what you get for listening to Caesar/DHS rather than to the King of kings -- a lifetime of living in fear.

I'm not the least bit afraid and I don't need a gun to make me feel safe. Can you say the same thing?

 

[sojourner4Christ]

So you are not paid in US dollars?

That’s right. FRN’s are not wages anyway. An FRN is an IOU, a note, a promise to pay.

Are you paid in gold and silver then?

No (not that it would matter).

Exactly what "benefit packages" were the Jews receiving from the Romans when Jesus told them to pay their taxes?

They were Roman citizens, beholden to Caesar. As Caesar's citizens, they were entitled to the permanent protection of the city, and owed allegiance to the State.

In Romans 13...he says "higher powers" in the plural not the singular.

It doesn’t change a thing, as the entire heavenly host contains higher powers.

I'm not the least bit afraid and I don't need a gun to make me feel safe. Can you say the same thing?

What we “need” is the truth -- not Caesar’s counterfeits.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

That’s right. FRN’s are not wages anyway. An FRN is an IOU, a note, a promise to pay. No (not that it would matter). They were Roman citizens, beholden to Caesar. It doesn’t change a thing, as the whole host of heaven contains higher powers. What we “need” is the truth -- not Caesar’s counterfeits.

You are unbelievable...truly unbelievable. Mind-bogglingly terrifying to know there are people like you in the USA.

 

[Jessica01]

That’s right. FRN’s are not wages anyway. An FRN is an IOU, a note, a promise to pay. No (not that it would matter).They were Roman citizens, beholden to Caesar. As Caesar's citizens, they were entitled to the permanent protection of the city, and owed allegiance to the State. It doesn’t change a thing, as the entire heavenly host contains higher powers. What we “need” is the truth -- not Caesar’s counterfeits.

What internet service are you using? Cable, DSL, satellite?

 

[RedPonyDriver]

What internet service are you using? Cable, DSL, satellite?

either he's stealing bandwidth from someone or he has internet, a computer, probably a home, car and job...

Thinking it's sorta hypocritical to talk smack

 

[sojourner4Christ]

You are unbelievable...truly unbelievable. Mind-bogglingly terrifying to know there are people like you in the USA.

You could do better than that.

Maybe when Caesar confiscates your savings/IRA/retirement/SS/pension, as has already happened in several countries, then you will listen? But then it'll be too late.

The banker bail in's are a well-established fact...for example, the Canadian 2013 federal budget stated should 'systemically important banks need to recapitalize that they will do so with certain bank liabilities' (paraphrasing pp. 143 & 144).

Take a look at your 'money'...when you read the fine print, it states it is a NOTE...this is another word for IOU. So when you deposit your 'money' into a bank, it is a LIABILITY.

The recent G20 meeting was simply re-affirming the fact they can take your 'money' any time they want.

LEGALLY MONEY IN A BANK HAS NEVER BEEN YOUR’S – nothing has changed. What has changed is that government is reneging on the New Deal and Socialism. The entire reason for creating the FDIC was for the government to regulate banks and thus guarantee them. The money is simply NOT yours and NEVER was once you deposit it into a bank. You become the same as a shareholder possessing merely a claim as an UNSECURED creditor in the case of a bankruptcy.

G20 is recognizing this LEGAL status and simply saying – HEY, there is NO obligation to bail anyone out.

The checking and savings accounts may be insured up to $100K but it's going to be 'first come first serve' until the small percentage cash out on this 'insurance'.

In other words...if you don't hold it in your hands, it's not yours.

When one deposits a bank 'NOTE,' it is a LIABILITY to the bank. All accounts are fair game despite the so called insurance 'protection'...do you really believe that if the banks need to recapitalize, the governments won't renege on their promise to protect your funds? Government minions are not beholding to the people; they are only loyal to their corporate overlords who essentially put them in 'power'.

I believe gov. bonds may be a trigger...one needs to keep their eye on Japan as this will be the first nation to collapse with the Euro in lockstep, then the US etc. Japan has just gone on a massive printing orgy and this, IMO, is the start of the domino effect.

Canada is NOT an island given the bulk of its exports head south of the 49th so they will fall right along with the good ol' USA.

Ultimately, one would be wise to diversify into hard assets and stay away from paper. Yes, institutions are going to move from public to private assets such as stocks but even then it is all electronically controlled and I, for one, do not feel secure knowing a 'glitch' could happen and my paper 'assets' go the way of the dodo bird.

The best solution for those who are not completely out of the system...

Only keep enough "money" in the bank to pay your bills for 1 month!

Get out of all stocks, bonds, 401k’s and all paper. Just stop playing their game.

That's what would be the best. But the masses will always chase after INTEREST, SHARES, BONDS, and, most important, the tribe's GOLD calf, making the tribe's bubble bigger and bigger.

What internet service are you using? Cable, DSL, satellite?

It's not mine. And, again, it wouldn't matter, as it's not contractual or commercial. Conversely, mortgages ("death pledges") are crashing all around us, foreclosures at an all-time high, inflation cranking way up. etc. etc. -- the consequences of engaging in commercial activity with the forum State.

...a home, car and job...

...all commercial terms, private copyright law, known as the Lex Mercatoria (Law Merchant). google it and get wise. Use of those terms will bring you into Caesar's jurisdiction.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

Conspiracy theorist? I still think you're a few fries short of a happy meal...but hey...it's a free country.

 

[sojourner4Christ]

Conspiracy theorist?

There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey; they have devoured souls; they have taken the treasure and precious things; they have made her many widows in the midst thereof.

Yeah, it's all just a conspiracy.

...but hey...it's a free country.

Not for Caesar's citizens.