LDS Warning to Non-Mormons

[dzheremi]

We are not deceived, we know of a surety that the Book of Mormon is the word of God.

Based on what? The fact that you've probably been parroting that forever?

This is, after all, the common confession of the Mormon religion, and it is about the 'truth' of their 'church' (religious organization), rather than solid theology or Christology more particularly (in comparison to, e.g., the Nicene Creed):

You know that this is used to the point of being a cliche, even if you won't admit it here. All the 'testimonies' begin with "I know the Church is true..." -- but do you? I don't see how a four year old like in that video could know anything in particular, let alone have an ecclesiological stance and a hostile outlook on the outside world ("I get teased for my stance..."), but this is what Mormonism inculcates in its believers.

At least the Nicene Creed has a strong Biblical basis. There is no corresponding basis for Mormonism's restoration fantasy, let alone its "the rest of the world is out to get us" fantasy, which is frankly a huge turn-off, even if you can 'out-nice' any Christian any day, all day. Maybe if you had orthodox theology you wouldn't need to substitute your ecclesiology in its place, as your current 'testimony' format clearly does.

But that's Mormonism for you! The 'church' comes first, and everything else is a distant second, and likely based on subjective feelings mixed with JS' and the other Mormon leaders' fantasies.

All of this would be pretty funny if it weren't so tragic for those involved. It is pretty humorous after all that this religion which has nothing of any sort of firm theology (and how could it, with your belief in 'continuing revelation' and modern day prophets that guarantee that your religion has no unchanging basis?) nevertheless spews hatred towards Christianity by calling its creeds 'abominations' and such. Maybe once you can get your own theology in order you can come to the adults' table on these matters, but since that will never happen, Mormon criticisms are forever like the nipping at your heels by the rabid theological chihuahua that is Joseph Smith and all of his successors, down to this very day.

You 'know' nothing. You believe these things, but on no more solid basis than your feelings, which you arrogantly mistake for the stirrings of the Holy Spirit testifying to a book, as your arrogant religion encourages such an equation (otherwise presumably no one would ever convert to Mormonism).

 

[Peter1000]

Based on what? The fact that you've probably been parroting that forever?

This is, after all, the common confession of the Mormon religion, and it is about the 'truth' of their 'church' (religious organization), rather than solid theology or Christology more particularly (in comparison to, e.g., the Nicene Creed):

You know that this is used to the point of being a cliche, even if you won't admit it here. All the 'testimonies' begin with "I know the Church is true..." -- but do you? I don't see how a four year old like in that video could know anything in particular, let alone have an ecclesiological stance and a hostile outlook on the outside world ("I get teased for my stance..."), but this is what Mormonism inculcates in its believers.

At least the Nicene Creed has a strong Biblical basis. There is no corresponding basis for Mormonism's restoration fantasy, let alone its "the rest of the world is out to get us" fantasy, which is frankly a huge turn-off, even if you can 'out-nice' any Christian any day, all day. Maybe if you had orthodox theology you wouldn't need to substitute your ecclesiology in its place, as your current 'testimony' format clearly does.

But that's Mormonism for you! The 'church' comes first, and everything else is a distant second, and likely based on subjective feelings mixed with JS' and the other Mormon leaders' fantasies.

All of this would be pretty funny if it weren't so tragic for those involved. It is pretty humorous after all that this religion which has nothing of any sort of firm theology (and how could it, with your belief in 'continuing revelation' and modern day prophets that guarantee that your religion has no unchanging basis?) nevertheless spews hatred towards Christianity by calling its creeds 'abominations' and such. Maybe once you can get your own theology in order you can come to the adults' table on these matters, but since that will never happen, Mormon criticisms are forever like the nipping at your heels by the rabid theological chihuahua that is Joseph Smith and all of his successors, down to this very day.

You 'know' nothing. You believe these things, but on no more solid basis than your feelings, which you arrogantly mistake for the stirrings of the Holy Spirit testifying to a book, as your arrogant religion encourages such an equation (otherwise presumably no one would ever convert to Mormonism).

It is because of the BOM that tens of thousands convert to the Church of Jesus Christ every year.

 

[Peter1000]

Based on what? The fact that you've probably been parroting that forever?

This is, after all, the common confession of the Mormon religion, and it is about the 'truth' of their 'church' (religious organization), rather than solid theology or Christology more particularly (in comparison to, e.g., the Nicene Creed):

You know that this is used to the point of being a cliche, even if you won't admit it here. All the 'testimonies' begin with "I know the Church is true..." -- but do you? I don't see how a four year old like in that video could know anything in particular, let alone have an ecclesiological stance and a hostile outlook on the outside world ("I get teased for my stance..."), but this is what Mormonism inculcates in its believers.

At least the Nicene Creed has a strong Biblical basis. There is no corresponding basis for Mormonism's restoration fantasy, let alone its "the rest of the world is out to get us" fantasy, which is frankly a huge turn-off, even if you can 'out-nice' any Christian any day, all day. Maybe if you had orthodox theology you wouldn't need to substitute your ecclesiology in its place, as your current 'testimony' format clearly does.

But that's Mormonism for you! The 'church' comes first, and everything else is a distant second, and likely based on subjective feelings mixed with JS' and the other Mormon leaders' fantasies.

All of this would be pretty funny if it weren't so tragic for those involved. It is pretty humorous after all that this religion which has nothing of any sort of firm theology (and how could it, with your belief in 'continuing revelation' and modern day prophets that guarantee that your religion has no unchanging basis?) nevertheless spews hatred towards Christianity by calling its creeds 'abominations' and such. Maybe once you can get your own theology in order you can come to the adults' table on these matters, but since that will never happen, Mormon criticisms are forever like the nipping at your heels by the rabid theological chihuahua that is Joseph Smith and all of his successors, down to this very day.

You 'know' nothing. You believe these things, but on no more solid basis than your feelings, which you arrogantly mistake for the stirrings of the Holy Spirit testifying to a book, as your arrogant religion encourages such an equation (otherwise presumably no one would ever convert to Mormonism).

If you think this 4 year old knows nothing, why do you baptize children that are less than 1. Do they comprehend Jesus at that age and know what they are doing?

 

[Rescued One]

It is because of the BOM that tens of thousands convert to the Church of Jesus Christ every year.

How do you know that? I wasn't even given time to read it before baptism. And my sister was baptized and passed away in Mormonism; I doubt that she ever read it.

 

[Rescued One]

If you think this 4 year old knows nothing, why do you baptize children that are less than 1. Do they comprehend Jesus at that age and know what they are doing?

If you think this 4-year-old memorized what to say, why did he have to wait until he's 8-years-old to be baptized?

He was trained to say that!

 

[Peter1000]

How do you know that? I wasn't even given time to read it before baptism. And my sister was baptized and passed away in Mormonism; I doubt that she ever read it.

I never knew your sister passed away in Mormonism. She now is in the spirit world and I guarantee you she has read the BOM and the Bible many times.

She is in the Paradisical part of the spirit world where the knowledge of the Lord is strong and our understanding is expanded by the Holy Spirit to reveal many wonderful things about the Lord which are beyond what we can understand here on earth in mortality.

So be happy for your sister, she is in good hands.

 

[Peter1000]

If you think this 4-year-old memorized what to say, why did he have to wait until he's 8-years-old to be baptized?

He was trained to say that!

Because that is the age Jesus Christ said was the age of understanding, when 95% of children start to know what is right and wrong for real. You can argue that age with me, but if Jesus tells us this is the least age to be baptized, that is what we are going to do.

 

[Rescued One]

Because that is the age Jesus Christ said was the age of understanding, when 95% of children start to know what is right and wrong for real. You can argue that age with me, but if Jesus tells us this is the least age to be baptized, that is what we are going to do.

Mormon children have repeatedly been told what to believe.

 

[Rescued One]

I never knew your sister passed away in Mormonism. She now is in the spirit world and I guarantee you she has read the BOM and the Bible many times.

She is in the Paradisical part of the spirit world where the knowledge of the Lord is strong and our understanding is expanded by the Holy Spirit to reveal many wonderful things about the Lord which are beyond what we can understand here on earth in mortality.

So be happy for your sister, she is in good hands.

I guarantee that you have no clue where she is! You don't know what she believed and what her values were either.

 

[mmksparbud]

It is because of the BOM that tens of thousands convert to the Church of Jesus Christ every year.

And just how many leave it?

Subtract: 182,964 minus 30,082 gives a figure of 152,882 ex-Mormons in Bolivia, 84% of those that once were baptized or born into the church. That is, there are over five times as many ex-Mormons in Bolivia as there are Mormons. Similar statistics for South American countries for the Watchtower Society (Jehovah's Witnesses) show that the Society's claimed membership fairly closely matches the self-identification numbers of the censuses.
www.packham.n4m.org/morexmos.htm


See also: List of former Latter Day Saints

Ex-Mormon or post-Mormon refers to a disaffiliate of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) or any of its schismatic breakoffs, collectively called "Mormonism". Ex-Mormons—sometimes referred to as exmo or postmo[1]—may neither believe in nor affiliate with the LDS Church. In contrast, Jack Mormons may believe but do not affiliate; and cultural Mormons may or may not affiliate but do not believe in certain doctrines or practices of the institutional LDS Church. The distinction is important to a large segment of ex-Mormons, many of whom consider their decision to leave as morally compelling and socially risky. According to 2014 Pew data, around 1/3 of adults raised LDS no longer adhere to the faith(up from around 10% in the '70s and '80s) and in 2008 only 25% of LDS young adults are actively involved.[2][3] Many ex-Mormons experience troubles with family members who still follow Mormon teachings.[4] Aggregations of ex-Mormons may comprise a social movement.[weasel words]

This is interesting:

Just how many types of Mormons are there? I decided to start writing down the ones I could think of, and they are listed below.

TBM - True Believing Mormon. Born and raised in the Mormon Church. Accepts it all at face value and doesn't question anything. Just goes along with it all despite what issues may arise. Basically, a "just believe" mentality. Blind faith. Sadly, this is the category into which I fell for many years.

Converted Mormon - becomes TBM. In some ways, the truth is hidden from them at first (since many things are not discussed in the "missionary lessons" due to the "Milk before Meat" philosophy, and they do not receive an accurate view of the history of the Mormon Church), and they close their eyes to the possibility that what they thought was true is simply not valid at all. Some do come to realize that the church is actually bogus and leave the church, but others stay and transform into one of the other categories as described below.

Converted Mormon, but doesn't really believe. Actually got baptized "for another person," such as a family member, a boyfriend or girlfriend, etc. They act as though they believe and on the surface they seem TBM, but in reality only joined because they valued the relationship with the loved one for whom they joined in the first place.

Questioning Mormon (but still accepting). Has some issues with certain doctrines, but places them on the shelf and tries to "just believe." Buys the mantra that if a person is having trouble believing something, then what is needed is more study of the scriptures and praying for correct answers. In other words, a mentality that says "it's me, not the church."

New Order Mormon (NOM). This is an interesting group, which is described at this link: Welcome newordermormon.org - BlueHost.com. This website says, "New Order Mormons are those who no longer believe some (or much) of the dogma or doctrines of the LDS Church, but who want to maintain membership for cultural, social, or even spiritual reasons. New Order Mormons recognize both good and bad in the Church, and have determined that the Church does not have to be perfect in order to remain useful. New Order Mormons seek the middle way to be Mormon." The "middle way to be Mormon" is described on the website as well. Naturally, some of these Mormons fall into the Social Mormon category described below - and some are actually Shadow Mormons (as explained below).

Social Mormon. Doesn't really believe, but keeps attending church for the social aspects of membership. They have a lot of friends in the church, and they don't want to lose the social interactions. Some NOMs fall into this category as do a lot of college-age young adults.

Of course, there are also Cafeteria Mormons (who simply pick and choose what they believe and will adhere to), and Jack Mormons (who do not attend church but "still believe" to some extent).

And let's not leave out ExMormons and PostMormons. People who, after realizing that Mormonism is a complete fraud, have had the guts to leave it all behind. I am proud to be a member of this category now.

Some of these categories are very disturbing to me. When someone just accepts something regardless of whatever issues may arise, they are closing their eyes and minds to the possibility that what they are clinging to is actually completely bogus. But when someone knows that something isn't true and yet continues to act as though it is, defending certain issues that are basically groundless and make no sense, it is equally disturbing. Actual truth is very important since it is based on facts and evidence. But the quote by Boyd K. Packer ("Some things that are true are not useful") infers that truth is not important.

But the saddest type of Mormon, IMO, is a Shadow Mormon.

In October 2010, I attended the Ex-Mormon Conference (which is held in Salt Lake City in October every year). It was my first time attending this conference, and it was a great experience. I have not been able to attend since then but I'm hoping to be able to attend again this year. During the conference, a film was aired entitled "In the Shadow of the Temple," and watching this film was a very emotional experience. There are probably 20 or more people who appear in the interviews in this film, and each one tells very heartfelt stories.

Some of those interviewed have left the church, and all of them faced a similar rejection by family, friends and community. Others no longer believe, but remain active because of family or community pressure. The latter are filmed in shadows, to obscure their identity. These are the people referred to as Shadow Mormons. They define Shadow Mormons as those who privately do not accept the exacting doctrine of the Church, but publicly profess to be true believers. They are in shadow to protect their relationships with family, friends and employers.

Here is a link to an article that I recently found about this film: http://mormonmatters.org/2009/12/22/in-the-shadow-of-the-temple-by-guest/

I am so glad that I began to question - and that I was able to transition from TBM to Questioning Mormon - and eventually to ExMormon. My life is so much happier now because I am living an authentic life and being true to who I really am. I am not bottling up my issues, putting them on a shelf, or hiding them from anyone. Full and complete disclosure - and let the chips fall where they may.

 

[dzheremi]

If you think this 4 year old knows nothing, why do you baptize children that are less than 1. Do they comprehend Jesus at that age and know what they are doing?

Babies are baptized in traditional churches as baptism is the means of formal entrance into the Church. It has nothing to do with what they can comprehend. If you ever go to an Orthodox baptism of a baby, you will see that the parents and godparents are asked to profess their own faith on the child's behalf (in the Coptic tradition in particular, they will say "I have believed for her/him" three times), because it is recognized that the baby itself cannot believe anything rationally. This is essentially a way of promising to raise the child in the faith, so that hopefully by the time they are old enough to choose it for themselves rationally, they will.

So it's not really comparable to what you see in that Mormon video.

 

[Peter1000]

Babies are baptized in traditional churches as baptism is the means of formal entrance into the Church. It has nothing to do with what they can comprehend. If you ever go to an Orthodox baptism of a baby, you will see that the parents and godparents are asked to profess their own faith on the child's behalf (in the Coptic tradition in particular, they will say "I have believed for her/him" three times), because it is recognized that the baby itself cannot believe anything rationally. This is essentially a way of promising to raise the child in the faith, so that hopefully by the time they are old enough to choose it for themselves rationally, they will.

So it's not really comparable to what you see in that Mormon video.

What you described to me is a very good start for a baby. Hopefully these parents and godparents followup and teach the infant the truth as they grow up.

We give our babies a fathers blessing to help them start their life journey. Then at 8 we baptize them as members of the chruch.

Age 8 is a time when children at least know the difference between right and wrong, understand the process of repentance and have a rudimentary knowledge (not a full knowledge) of Christ, and his atoning sactrifice. This baptism strengthens their commitment to Jesus Christ and hopefully will be a day that they will remember forever. Our sacrament services remind our people of the day they were baptized and the promises they made and the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on our behalf. This is done throughout our lives.