Warning! Don't Mix the Old - With the New Covenant

[Clare73]

So that is a way in which they are similar.

As is no one being made righteous by law keeping.

While Paul denied in Romans 4:4-5 that we can earn our justification as a wage by obeying God's law, he also said in Romans 2:13 that only doers of the law will be justified,

In context, Paul is showing that since only the doers of the Law will be justified, and no Jew does the Law as God requires, therefore, no Jew is righteous nor will be justified, that all Jews are unrighteous as are all Gentiles (Romans 1:18-32), making all mankind unrighteous (Romans 3:9-12), with the only righteousness being from God himself, not man's obedience, and coming only by faith (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:20-22, Romans 9:30), not by law keeping (Romans 3:28).

 

[Soyeong]

Actually I did.

Mosaic covenant was not made with Abe, Isaac, and Jacob see Deut. 5:2-3

If God has made the New Covenant with us that he did not make with the Israelites, and it contains at least some of the same laws, then the fact that God made a covenant with the Israelites that He did not make with their fathers does not mean that their fathers did not follow the same laws. For example, it was a sin to commit adultery in Genesis 39:9 long before the Mosaic Covenant, during it, and it remains a sin after it has become obsolete, so that law is eternally valid regardless of which covenant someone is under, if any.

In Matthew 4:17-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel of the Kingdom to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, and God's law was the children of Abraham knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel message, which was made known in advance to Abraham in accordance with the promise (Galatians 3:8). In Genesis 12:1-5, the promises were made to Abraham to make him a great nation, to bless those who bless him, to curse those who curse him, and in him all of the nations of the earth would be blessed, and he spread this Gospel message to those in Haran. In John 8:39, Jesus said that if they were children of Abraham, then they would be doing the same works as Him, which means that the works that they were instructed by God to do in the Torah were the same works that Abraham was instructed to do. Furthermore, this means that the way to multiply the children of Abraham into a great nation does not refer to having lots of physical descendants, but rather it is multiplied by blessing the nations by teaching them how become children of Abraham by doing the same works as him in accordance with faith in the promise (Romans 9:6-8). In other words, in accordance with the Gospel of the Kingdom, the Kingdom of God is a great nation made up of people who are living blessed lives because they are being taught to turn from their wickedness and how to walk in God's way, and who are multiplied by being a blessing to the nations through teaching them how to do that, and the Torah is how the children of Abraham know how to do that (Psalms 119:1-3).

In Genesis 18:19, God knew Abraham that he would teach his children and those of his household to walk in God's way by doing righteousness and justice that the Lord may bring to him all that he has promised, namely that he will multiply his children as the starts in the heaven, to his children he will give all of these lands, and through his children all of the nations of the earth will be blessed because Abraham heard God's voice and guarded His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws. In Deuteronomy 30:16, if the children of Abraham will love God with all of their heart and soul by obeying His commandments, His statutes, and His laws, then God will bless them and they will multiply in the land that they go to possess. So all of the promises that were made to Abraham in accordance with the Gospel of the Kingdom that was made known in advance to him were made to him and brought about because he walked in God's way in obedience to His law, he taught his children and those of his household to do that, and because his children also did that.

Abraham walked in God's way, he taught his children how to do that, there are many verses that describe the Torah as being instructions for how to walk in God's way, such as Deuteronomy 10:12-13, 1 Kings 2:1-3, Isaiah 2:2-3, Joshua 22:5, Psalms 103:7, and many others, and in Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts, so is this what is being written on your heart?

 

[Soyeong]

As is no one being made righteous by law keeping.

In context, Paul is showing that since only the doers of the Law will be justified, and no Jew does the Law as God requires, therefore, no Jew is righteous nor will be justified, that all Jews are unrighteous as are all Gentiles (Romans 1:18-32), making all mankind unrighteous (Romans 3:9-12), with the only righteousness being from God himself, not man's obedience, and coming only by faith (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:20-22, Romans 9:30), not by law keeping (Romans 3:28).

In Romans 3:21-22, the way to be made righteous that is testified about in the Law and the Prophets is through faith in Jesus for all who believe, so this another way that the Mosaic and the New Covenants are the same. Nowhere does the Bible say that no Jew does the Law as God requires, but rather there are a number of examples of people who are described as being righteous and doers of the law, such as in Genesis 6:8-9, Joshua 22:1-3, and Luke 1:5-6. In Romans 3:31, being justified faith does not abolish our need to obey God's law, but rather our faith upholds yet instead of upholding law keeping by faith, you are seeking to abolish it.

 

[ralliann]

If God has made the New Covenant with us that he did not make with the Israelites,

What is this about? My post concerned the covenant made with Abraham. He simply disannulled the carnal command in the new covenant.

and it contains at least some of the same laws, then the fact that God made a covenant with the Israelites that He did not make with their fathers does not mean that their fathers did not follow the same laws. For example, it was a sin to commit adultery in Genesis 39:9 long before the Mosaic Covenant, during it, and it remains a sin after it has become obsolete, so that law is eternally valid regardless of which covenant someone is under, if any.

Yeah, the only distinction appears to be divorce. Only allowed under Moses law.

In Matthew 4:17-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel of the Kingdom to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, and God's law was the children of Abraham knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel message,

Yeah, he was speaking to Jews who were judged by the law.

which was made known in advance to Abraham in accordance with the promise (Galatians 3:8). In Genesis 12:1-5, the promises were made to Abraham to make him a great nation, to bless those who bless him, to curse those who curse him, and in him all of the nations of the earth would be blessed, and he spread this Gospel message to those in Haran.

What's this? You are talking about the children born of promise in Genesis 17, the covenant of circumcision.
Promise of kings!
Ge 17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
Ge 17:16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her. {she … : Heb. she shall become nations }
Ge 35:11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;

 

[Soyeong]

What is this about? My post concerned the covenant made with Abraham.

The point is that the fact that a covenant was made with them that wasn't made with their fathers does not mean that any of the laws of that covenant were not previously given.

Yeah, the only distinction appears to be divorce. Only allowed under Moses law.

That is not a distinction. What was not the case from the beginning was divorce over frivolous reasons.

Yeah, he was speaking to Jews who were judged by the law.

In Matthew 4:15-23, it says that the Gospel of the Kingdom is a light to the nations, in Matthew 24:12-14, Jesus prophesied that it would be proclaimed to all nations, in Matthew 28:16-20, Jesus commissioned his disciples to teach it to the nations, and in Genesis 12:1-5, Abraham taught it to the nations. Jews are not the only ones who are required to refrain from doing what God has revealed to be sin. Christ spent his ministry calling for people people to repent and obey God's law, and following Jesus is not just for Jews, but for Gentiles too.

What's this? You are talking about the children born of promise in Genesis 17, the covenant of circumcision.
Promise of kings!
Ge 17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
Ge 17:16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her. {she … : Heb. she shall become nations }
Ge 35:11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;

Indeed, Abraham circumcised his children and those of his household, which included people from Haran that he spread the Gospel of the Kingdom with in Genesis 12:1-5. The way to inherit the promise through faith is by teaching others turn from their wickedness and how to live blessed lives by walking in God's way, and in Acts 3:25-26, Jesus, who is the living embodiment of God's way, was sent as the fulfillment of that promise to bless us by turning us form our wickedness.

 

[ralliann]

The point is that the fact that a covenant was made with them that wasn't made with their fathers does not mean that any of the laws of that covenant were not previously given.

We know there was prior law from the beginning. Moses law simply retained law from previous covenants. Marriage etc.

That is not a distinction. What was not the case from the beginning was divorce over frivolous reasons.

Distinction, difference, addition. Divorce was not given in previous covenants.

In Matthew 4:15-23, it says that the Gospel of the Kingdom is a light to the nations, in Matthew 24:12-14, Jesus prophesied that it would be proclaimed to all nations, in Matthew 28:16-20, Jesus commissioned his disciples to teach it to the nations, and in Genesis 12:1-5, Abraham taught it to the nations. Jews are not the only ones who are required to refrain from doing what God has revealed to be sin.

We read of sin before and apart from the Mosaic covenant and we are told what the nations did which were in the land before Israel. Israel is told not to do those things or they would also be spewed out.
We have a new covenant in Christ and are the seed of promise to Abraham for eternal inheritance.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

You might try the Biblical usages:

Old Covenant - a conditional divine pledge to be Israel's God, the condition: Israel's total consecration to the Lord as his people who live by his rule and serve his purpose (Deuteronomy 7:12, Deuteronomy 26:17; 2 Kings 21:8).

New Covenant - an unconditional divine promise to unfaithful Israel for forgive her sins and establish his relationship with her on a new basis by writing his law on their hearts (internal law rather than external law; fulfilled in loving, Romans 13:8-10), a covenant of grace entered by faith, not by descent from Isaac (Jeremiah 31:31-34).

I disagree
New Covenant is conditional

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Seems pretty simple to me

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Actually I did.

Simple qustions for you to answer with yes or no

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Are the ten commandments part of the law refered to in above verse spoken by the Lord Jesus Christ

 

[Soyeong]

We know there was prior law from the beginning. Moses law simply retained law from previous covenants. Marriage etc.

For as long as God has been eternally righteous, there has been an eternal way to act in accordance with His eternal righteousness, which has been revealed through the eternal laws that God has given.

Distinction, difference, addition. Divorce was not given in previous covenants.

I see no evidence for your claim.

We read of sin before and apart from the Mosaic covenant and we are told what the nations did which were in the land before Israel. Israel is told not to do those things or they would also be spewed out. We have a new covenant in Christ and are the seed of promise to Abraham for eternal inheritance.

Sin was in the world before the law was given, but where there is no law sin is not charged against us (Romans 5:13), so it was possible for someone to sin by acting contrary to God's eternal nature prior to when they had been instructed not to do that. Israel being blessed and multiplying in the land in accordance with faith in the promise is contingent on continuing to obey God's law (Deuteronomy 30:16).

In Deuteronomy 30:1-8, it prophesies about a time when the Israelites would return from exile, God would circumcise their hearts, and they would return to obedience to His law. In Ezekiel 36:26-27 and Jeremiah 31:33, the content is in regard to the Israelites returning from exile and the New Covenant where God circumcises our hearts by means of the Spirit, where he takes away our hearts of stone, gives us hearts of flesh, and sends His Spirit to lead us in obedience to His law, and puts His law in our minds and writes it on our hearts. In Romans 2:25-29, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by their obedience to God's law, which is the same way to tell for a Jew, and circumcision of the heart is a matter of the Spirit, which is in contrast with Acts 7:51-53, where those who have uncircumcised hearts resist the Spirit and do not obey God's law. So the New Covenant is entirely about Israel returning to obedience to God's law in accordance with faith in the promise, and it is through this faith that we inherit the promise.

 

[Clare73]

I disagree
New Covenant is conditional

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

That is not the covenant.
The covenant is Jeremiah 31:31-34. . .a promise of what God will do, not what we will do.

Seems pretty simple to me

Because you've got it Biblically wrong.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

That is not the covenant.
The covenant is Jeremiah 31:31-34. . .a promise of what God will do, not what we will do.
Because you've got it Biblically wrong.

a covenant is a contract that either party can walk away from

Jeremiah 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith Jehovah: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people:

 

[Clare73]

a covenant is a contract that either party can walk away from

Jeremiah 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith Jehovah: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people:

Review the nature of an unilateral covenant. . .

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Review the nature of an unilateral covenant. . .

sorry but the covenant is not unilateral it is bilateral

you need to study the examples in the old testament God always required something from those that the covenant was made with

 

[Clare73]

sorry but the covenant is not unilateral it is bilateral

you need to study the examples in the old testament God always required something from those that the covenant was made with

Au contraire. . .

 

[GDL]

Au contraire. . .

Might help if you define a unilateral contract.

Is unilateral the same as unconditional? You've used both terms.

 

[GDL]

righteousness being from God himself, not man's obedience

Are we commanded to believe in the name of God's Son? If we are, then righteousness comes from obedience to God.

What about the message of the following verses?

• Hebrews 5:9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
  
• Romans 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"
  
• NKJ 2 Thessalonians 1:8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
  
• NKJ 1 Peter 4:17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?

Yes, righteousness is from God, but does Scripture totally disassociate man's obedience to God?

and coming only by faith

How about the context of Romans 1:5, bookended with Romans 16:26, and mentioned in Romans 15:18? Also, Romans 10:16 quoted above? Is faith ever alone?

Is it one of Paul's "works of law" to obey God's Good News of His Son?

 

[Clare73]

Might help if you define a unilateral contract.

A unilateral covenant is the first party promising performance to the second party without any promise by the second party.
The first party could condition the promise to the second party without any promise by
the second party.

Is unilateral the same as unconditional? You've used both terms.

Unconditional is performance of the first party based on no conditions to the second party, and is not the same as unilateral.

 

[Clare73]

Are we commanded to believe in the name of God's Son? If we are, then righteousness comes from obedience to God.

Faith is not a "work," performance, doing.

The righteousness which justifies (sentence of acquittal) is a declared, pronounced righteousness (dikaiosis) which is imputed (Romans 4:11b, Romans 4:2-3) by faith, as was Abraham's (Genesis 15:6).

The righteousness which sanctifies (holiness) is imparted through obedience in the Holy Spirit (Romans 6:16, Romans 6:19).

What about the message of the following verses?

• Hebrews 5:9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, (obey his command to believe)
  
• Romans 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"(obedience is defined as belief)
  
• NKJ 2 Thessalonians 1:8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. (the first command of which is to believe, Mark 1:16, John 3:18)
  
• NKJ 1 Peter 4:17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? (the first command of which is to believe)

Yes, righteousness is from God, but does Scripture totally disassociate man's obedience to God?

Righteousness imputed from God is justification by faith apart from works (Romans 3:28).
Righteousness through obedience in the Holy Spirit is sanctification.

How about the context of Romans 1:5, bookended with Romans 16:26, and mentioned in Romans 15:18? Also, Romans 10:16 quoted above? Is faith ever alone?

It is the apostolic teaching of the NT that
1) true faith is never alone, it always has works (James 2:17),
2) faith and its works are two separate and different things (Romans 3:28; Ephesians 2:8-9), and
3) the works of true faith are not related to salvation (Ephesians 2:8-9), nor to justification (Romans 3:28), only the faith itself, apart from its works, saves and justifies.

Is it one of Paul's "works of law" to obey God's Good News of His Son?

The apostolic teaching of the NT is that faith itself is not a work, and the NT separates faith from its works in salvation (Ephesians 2:8-9) and in justification (Romans 3:28).

 

[GDL]

obedience is defined as belief

I don't think I would specifically define obedience as belief, but I would parallel or equate the 2. And this is pretty much the answer to all of this.

Since God commands us to believe in the name of His Son (1 John 3:23, et al.), then effectively our justification is from God through our faith, which is also our obedience to His command to believe. So, our justification is through faith, which is also obedience.

Based upon 1 John 3:23 and others like Mark 1:16 (you referenced but s/b Mark 1:15, correct?) that show faith is commanded, and upon Romans 10:16 and Hebrews 3:18-19 that equate faith & obedience, I see in Romans 1:5 & 16:26 the phrase "obedience of faith" (ESV, NET, YLT translations that are translating it most literally) as being what's called a "genitive of Apposition" which equates the 2 words (obedience & faith) but does not say the equation is exact. So, I'd bring out this equation in translation with something like obedience-faith or even the reverse faith-obedience or obedience which is faith.

There's also an Attributed Genitive which can be translated as "obedient faith" or an Attributive Genitive whereby we would change faith into the adjective a have something like "faithful obedience."

This is helping us to better understand faith. Then, whenever we see faith specified, we should think faith-obedience unless the Scripture is separating the 2 words for us, which I think Jesus did in Luke 17:5 where His disciples ask that He increase their faith and His response basically boils down to telling His servants to just do what He tells them to do Luke 17:10.

The end of the matter is that we are justified by faith, which is also obedience and, using your terminology, we are sanctified through continuing and growing faith-obedience - faith & obedience being equated. The very end is that this is really boiled down to being faithfully obedient or simply just faithful (like faithful Abraham Gal3:9; like our faithful Father Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Corinthins 1:9, et al.; like our faithful Lord Revelation 1:5; and like our faithful siblings of old Ephesians 1:1 et al.)

100% agreement that faith is not a work related to Paul's "faith" vs. "works" discussions re: salvation. Also, based upon the above and more, obedience is not a work (faith is not a work > obedience is equated to faith, so obedience is not a work). Obedience is our responsive duty to our God's commands. And it's pretty simple to distinguish wages as being attributed to actual work accomplished and not to the obedience in which the work is done (faith-obedience > work > wages vs. faith-obedience + no work (God did the work) > no wages Ephesians 2).

 

[Clare73]

I don't think I would specifically define obedience as belief,

Make up your mind

Are we commanded to believe in the name of God's Son? If we are, then righteousness comes from obedience to God.

but I would parallel or equate the 2. And this is pretty much the answer to all of this.

Since God commands us to believe in the name of His Son (1 John 3:23, et al.), then effectively our justification is from God through our faith, which is also our obedience to His command to believe. So, our justification is through faith, which is also obedience.

You fail to deal with the NT separation of faith from faith's works of obedience in salvation (Ephesians 2:8-9) and justification (Romans 3:28), though not in sanctification (Romans 6:16, Romans 6:19).