War?

[OttomanScribe]

so it stands to reason that God has falsified documentation to us mortals via the Gospel of Jesus (reference Surah 3:3-4)?

The Asad translation of which being:

Step by step has He bestowed upon thee from on high this divine writ, setting forth the truth which confirms whatever there still remains [of earlier revelations]: for it is He who has bestowed from on high the Torah and the Gospel

The Muslim understanding of earlier revelation has always been that the Christians and the Jews both corrupted the message brought by their Prophets (as). The Jews by making the religion exclusive and the Christians by deifying their Messenger (as) and abandoning the law. While Allah descended the Torah and the Gospel both, those who followed corrupted them. Only the Qu'ran has chains of transmission intact enough to be able to claim legitimacy as truth. The Qu'ran was scattered across the earth and kept separate so that none could forge it. One can find early copies of it preserved from the first century Hijrah that are exactly the same as those one would read today.

When is the earliest bible we have access to? When was it compiled? Also whom wrote the Bible? One author? Many? What then remains of God's message then save scatterings of truth amongst the parables?

 

[98cwitr]

Early Christian Writings: New Testament, Apocrypha, Gnostics, Church Fathers has a very extensive source list for each writing including the Gospels, in various languages including Greek.

According to the Qur'an, the Gospels and Torah (OT) were handed down by God. So in your faith, no one wrote these books unless told what to write by God.

Canonization is a whole new ballgame and I'm in agreement with you there...some, if not all gnostic writings should have been under a 3rd party review and not in the hands of a corrupt church.

As far as the Law is concerned, Paul seems to put the spin on the freedom from Law...Jesus said that He did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. So in that regard, the Law is not out of the picture and should be adhered to. Do I adhere to the Law? No...I don't, I'd like to, but I really don't believe that eating bacon is a sin, and who is going to cast me out of the city for having a "nightly expulsion?"

To put it into perspective: Jesus tells us to love one another as ourselves (and that this sums up the Law of the Prophets), and love the Lord God with all your heart. Sounds kinda general here but as long as we love others and love God the Law is fulfilled through Jesus Christ. I don't believe that God and Jesus are literally the same being. Most Christians say so because of John 10:30, but it is taken so literal that it's true, figurative meaning is misconstrued. I dont think the Bible is corrupted...I think we are so corrupted it is impossible for us to understand it without divine intervention.

 

[OttomanScribe]

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/

Early Christian Writings: New Testament, Apocrypha, Gnostics, Church Fathers has a very extensive source list for each writing including the Gospels, in various languages including Greek.

All of which are reportedly written after the time of their occurrence, some up to 200 years afterward, and the majority at least 100. Something like this cannot constitute God's speech, for God's speech is only truly safe in the hands of a Prophet (as) and none of Jesus's (as) disciples had that status save John (as).

According to the Qur'an, the Gospels and Torah (OT) were handed down by God. So in your faith, no one wrote these books unless told what to write by God.

When God refers to the Gospels and the Torah in the Qu'ran, it is in the context of them as revelation, rather than in their current form. Revelation was given to Isa (as) and he lived it. He was in person the 'word' of God. Thus accounts of him are not the 'word of God', but rather accounts of the word. Accounts of revelation. There is some truth in them, but, written by men, they are subject to corruption and misunderstanding.

As far as the Law is concerned, Paul seems to put the spin on the freedom from Law...Jesus said that He did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. So in that regard, the Law is not out of the picture and should be adhered to. Do I adhere to the Law? No...I don't, I'd like to, but I really don't believe that eating bacon is a sin, and who is going to cast me out of the city for having a "nightly expulsion?"

That Paul could so readily corrupt the message is part of the reason that Muslims reject the Bible. It is good that you desire adherence to the law even if unable to fulfil it. 'Each action is judged as to intention'

To put it into perspective: Jesus tells us to love one another as ourselves (and that this sums up the Law of the Prophets), and love the Lord God with all your heart. Sounds kinda general here but as long as we love others and love God the Law is fulfilled through Jesus Christ. I don't believe that God and Jesus are literally the same being. Most Christians say so because of John 10:30, but it is taken so literal that it's true, figurative meaning is misconstrued. I dont think the Bible is corrupted...I think we are so corrupted it is impossible for us to understand it without divine intervention.

Without the deification of Christ you are then more Muslim than Christian. Muslims follow in the footsteps of the Jews and Christians both... our corruption of our understandings is occuring right now.

 

[Christos Anesti]

The Church bears witness that the Bible is a sure guide to a life of righteousness and salvation. I trust the Bible because I trust the saints and the Church. Exact literal perfection in handing down of texts (while certainly important , something to strive for. and something to take into consideration ) is not a key factor for me when it comes to accepting the Bible my Church uses. It only matters if the text we have now can bring about the desired effect in the reader/s and that God has preserved them in such a manner as to allow that. In other words... if it works. Experience and history shows that it does have that power. While I certainly don't mean to downplay the importance of Scripture I think it's important to realize that Christ left us the Church which is His Body and not a just a collection of words written on paper as well. He also communicates directly with His people through the power of the Holy Spirit. In Christianity there is a certain prophetic function given to every believer though all may not be Prophets in the strict sense.

I also think its important to point out that Christians tend not to understand the Bible in the way Muslims understand the Quran. It is not necessarily thought to have been revelaed via God saying "write x, y, and z" in a audible voice to the various authors (though certain parts may have been) . I've heard it said by a Muslim writer (S.H. Nasr) that the Quran in the Islamic tradition is more analgous to Christ himself as the Word than it is to the Bible as it is understood in the Christian tradition.

 

[OttomanScribe]

The Church bears witness that the Bible is a sure guide to a life of righteousness and salvation. I trust the Bible because I trust the saints and the Church. Exact literal perfection in handing down of texts (while certainly important , something to strive for. and something to take into consideration ) is not a key factor for me when it comes to accepting the Bible my Church uses. It only matters if the text we have now can bring about the desired effect in the reader/s and that God has preserved them in such a manner as to allow that. In other words... if it works. Experience and history shows that it does have that power. While I certainly don't mean to downplay the importance of Scripture I think it's important to realize that Christ left us the Church which is His Body and not a just a collection of words written on paper as well. He also communicates directly with His people through the power of the Holy Spirit. In Christianity there is a certain prophetic function given to every believer though all may not be Prophets in the strict sense.

This is indeed one Christian understanding. Similarly in Islam, the 'Ummah' (rather than the church as such) is considered a sacrament. However in regards to transmission it is not so much about trusting the Saint's, but about all those that surround them. As a student of history I am well aware that words and tales are readily and commonly altered beyond measure in the mists of time. That Muslims require chains of transmission for hadith originating with Aisha (ra) is no disrespect to the Mother of the Believers. Rather it is an understanding that the past is always a murky thing.

I also think its important to point out that Christians tend not to understand the Bible in the way Muslims understand the Quran. It is not necessarily thought to have been revelaed via God saying "write x, y, and z" in a audible voice to the various authors (though certain parts may have been) . I've heard it said by a Muslim writer (S.H. Nasr) that the Quran in the Islamic tradition is more analgous to Christ himself as the Word than it is the Bible as it understood in the Christian tradition.

This is true, though it is not the Orthodox understanding that it was 'audible' as such. I agree with Sheikh Seyid's understanding of this. Though many Christians seem not to agree, their understanding being the Bible itself is the 'word'.

 

[Christos Anesti]

I agree with Sheikh Seyid's understanding of this.

I've always enjoyed his books.

though it is not the Orthodox understanding that it was 'audible' as such

Maybe audible wasn't the best word.

 

[Christos Anesti]

Ottoman Scribe,

Have you seen the book "Paths to the Heart, Sufism and the Christian East" yet? It's very good and Seyyed Hossein Nasr, Huston Smith and Metropolitan Kallistos Ware contributed to it (among others). You might enjoy it.

You can read one of the Chapters by James Cutsinger online here:

​

Hesychia[FONT=AOEJHE+TimesNewRoman,Bold,Times New Roman][FONT=AOEJHE+TimesNewRoman,Bold,Times New Roman]: An Orthodox Opening to Esoteric Ecumenism
[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[98cwitr]

trust the Church? I am the type to very weary of churches...now and in history...I think I have been made so pessimistic in viewing the history of the Catholic church and the horrible things they did to "honor Christ." I'm a pretty new Christian as well, so I need some conservative foundations in my life. It's as horrible and as disturbing as this other "extremist" groups do for their "god."

 

[OttomanScribe]

Have you seen the book "Paths to the Heart, Sufism and the Christian East" yet? It's very good and Seyyed Hossein Nasr, Huston Smith and Metropolitan Kallistos Ware contributed to it (among others). You might enjoy it.

I cannot say I have as yet. Though it sounds interesting! I love his 'Traditional Islam in the Modern World'.

If you enjoy his writing, you should read my Sheikh. Specifically 'Jesus and Mohammed, Brothers in faith'.

I will read the article after I do a presentation on Christianity and Nature for uni. I'm actually defending y'all lol. As much as it might be easy to blame Christianity for all the world's ills.. I'm not buying it. I do like Saint Francis though. Patron Saint of Ecology ftw.

 

[Christos Anesti]

I cannot say I have as yet. Though it sounds interesting! I love his 'Traditional Islam in the Modern World'.

I haven't read that one yet. I liked his book "Knowledge and the Sacred " but I seem to have lost it. He sure has written his fair share of books. I was just re-reading one his books for a paper I was writting for my English class on Hermeticism in the Islamic world along with "The Wisdom of the Mystic East Suhrawardi and Platonic Orientalism" and "The Leaven of the Ancients Suhrawardi and the Heritage of the Greeks" by John Wallbridge. Both of those are fascinating books.

If you enjoy his writing, you should read my Sheikh. Specifically 'Jesus and Mohammed, Brothers in faith'.

Thank you for the link.

I do like Saint Francis though. Patron Saint of Ecology ftw.

I like St Francis too. My name saint ,St Seraphim of Sarov, was also down with all the furry woodland animals. Saint Herman of Alaska was too. He is my sons saint. Used to feed the bears from his hand and had a special raport with animals. There is a nice icon of him doing that and I want to ask the Iconographer at my Church to make me one.

 

[Jpark]

Never mind.