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Yes, we need Christ and just as Jesus is God on earth, when He returned to Glory he said he would send the comforter, and many were filled with the Holy Spirit. This brings us to John 3:8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”thanks for answering only Jesus can set one free from bondage to sin.
I believe just as our physical birth cannot be reversed the same is true with our spiritual birth. Once we are born we do not become unborn. Those who are truly born again are New Creations in Christ. Once we are created new we do not become uncreated. I believe the new birth is irreversible. Eternal Life is forever once it has been given to us by Christ. Those who are born from above will seek His kingdom, His rule in their lives and not live for themselves or this world since it is not our home. I believe all the warning passages have to do with the wheat and the tares. Tares have the appearance of wheat on the outside by they are different inside.Yes, we need Christ and just as Jesus is God on earth, when He returned to Glory he said he would send the comforter, and many were filled with the Holy Spirit. This brings us to John 3:8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
I feel this is part of the conversion process worldwide coupled with events in a persons life, and as a result some people respond. Praise God. How does this scan with your view in relation to the teaching of OSAS, or does it not?
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The idea that we cannot be "unborn" is the teaching of man and not of God and this is why I say that:I believe just as our physical birth cannot be reversed the same is true with our spiritual birth. once we are born we do not become unborn.
hope this helps !!!
I believe it is God's wish that everyone should turn to him, whereas to my mind the word elect speaks of a special group, elected or chosen for a special task or purpose. Saul was one elected by God and so were the disciples. These and many more stand out from the crowd.
With this in mind, when people say they have been elected, I get alarm bells ringing in my head. If it was for everyone who is saved that would mean I was elected and I do not feel that at all. I am simply one of the sheep who follows the Good Shepherd. Anyway, those are my thoughts.
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I believe it is God's wish that everyone should turn to him, whereas to my mind the word elect speaks of a special group, elected or chosen for a special task or purpose. Saul was one elected by God and so were the disciples. These and many more stand out from the crowd.
With this in mind, when people say they have been elected, I get alarm bells ringing in my head. If it was for everyone who is saved that would mean I was elected and I do not feel that at all. I am simply one of the sheep who follows the Good Shepherd. Anyway, those are my thoughts.
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thanks for answering only Jesus can set one free from bondage to sin.
thanks for answering only Jesus can set one free from bondage to sin.
thanks for answering only Jesus can set one free from bondage to sin.
What indication in the New Testament does the word “elect” or “election” refer to only the service of the believer. I do not get that impression by these words, my brother.
“And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” (Matthew 24:31).
Are you saying that only those believers who were chosen for specific task are going to be taken up by angels in the Middle of the Tribulation (after the Abominations of Desolations)?
Then there is Romans 8:33.
“Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.” (Romans 8:33).
The context does not sound like a special group of believers, but it sounds like a reference to all believers.
31 “What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?And even more context tells us that these elect are those that love God and are called according to his purpose (i.e. The purpose of all Christ following believers according to the words of Jesus and His followers found in the New Testament Scriptures).
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.” (Romans 8:31-34).
28 “And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.” (Romans 8:28-30).
The majority of mankind is called or elected to salvation by Jesus Christ and what He has done for them. I believe some are not predestinated or called on the account of something really really bad that God knows they will do as a matter of fact (like worshiping the beast).
“And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” (Revelation 13:8).
“The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.” (Revelation 17:8).
It says that those who worship the beast did not even have their names written in the Lamb's book of life since the foundation of the world. This means that Jesus did not die for their sins on the account that GOD knew that they would worship the beast as a matter of fact. For 1 Peter 1:1-2 says that Peter and the other believers were elected according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.
So God did not elect those who will worship the beast in the future. They never even had a chance at salvation on the account of God knowing what they would do that was really really bad. So this way, God can elect everyone else who did have a shot or chance at salvation. For their kinds of sins were forgivable. Worshiping the beast is not a forgivable sin in God's eyes. Men like John MacArthur (a Calvinist and a professed Eternal Security Proponent) says that a person can take the mark of the beast and they can still be saved afterwards. Listen to this audio clip by him here:
But that is not what the Bible says (Revelation 13:8) (Revelation 17:8).
look lets talk scripture, not calvin.But how does He choose? In Calvinism it is an UNconditional Election. This means there is no real conditions God is basing that election to salvation upon. So God is just randomly choosing some to be saved. Does not sound like the God of the Bible to me. 2 Peter 3:9 says that God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
Side Note:
Oh, and I do see that the word “election” used in reference to Israelites in the New Testament. But I think that this word is also used generically of New Covenant believers, as well. Well, I could be wrong of course. I never did a super deep study on these words in the Bible before, and I would be more than happy to be corrected if that is what the Scriptures say.
In any event, may God's love shine upon you today, brother. I think we agree on salvation, but we just use different wording. Peace and blessings to you today, brother.
There is a lot there and I am getting tired, so with regard to Matthew 24:31 let me quote Albert Barns.
And he shall send his angels - “Angels” signify, literally, “messengers,” Luk_7:24; Luk_9:52. The word is often applied to inanimate objects, or to anything that God employs to rescue his people from danger Psa_104:4; but it most commonly refers to the race of intelligent beings more exalted than man, who are employed often in the work of man’s rescue from ruin, and aiding his salvation, Heb_1:14. In either of these senses it might here refer to deliverance granted to his people in the calamities of Jerusalem. It is said that there is reason to believe that not one Christian perished in the destruction of that city, God having in various ways secured their escape, so that they fled to Pella, where they lived when the city was destroyed. But the language seems to refer rather to the end of the world, and, no doubt, its principal application was intended to be to the gathering of his elect at the day of judgment:
With a great sound of a trumpet - The Jewish assemblies used to be called together by the sound of a trumpet, as ours are by bells, Lev_25:9; Num_10:2; Jdg_3:27. Hence, when they spoke of convening an assembly, they spoke also of doing it by sounding a trumpet. Our Saviour, speaking to Jews, used language to which they were accustomed, and described the assembling of the people at the last day in language which they were accustomed to use in calling assemblies together. It is not certain, however, that he meant that this would be literally so, but it may be designed only to denote the certainty that the “world would be assembled together.” Similar language is often used when speaking of the judgment, 1Th_4:16; 1Co_15:52. A trump, or trumpet, was a wind instrument, made at first from the horns of oxen, and afterward of rams’ horns, cut off at the smaller extremity. In some instances it was made of brass, in the form of a horn. The common trumpet was straight, made of brass or silver, a cubit in length, the larger extremity shaped so as to resemble a small bell. In times of peace, in assembling the people, this was sounded softly. In times of calamity, or war, or any great commotion, it was sounded loud. Perhaps this was referred to when our Saviour said, with a great sound of a trumpet.
They shall gather together his elect - Elect. See the notes at Mat_24:22. The word means Christians - the chosen of God. If this refers to the destruction of Jerusalem, it means, “God shall send forth his messengers - whatever he may choose to employ for that purpose: signs, wonders, human messengers, or the angels themselves - and gather Christians into a place of safety, so that they shall not be destroyed with the Jews.” If it refers to the last judgment, as it doubtless in a primary or secondary sense does, then it means that he will send his angels to gather his chosen, his elect, together from all places, Mat_13:39, Mat_13:41-43. This shall be done before the living shall be changed, 1Co_15:51-52; 1Th_4:16-17.
From the four winds - That is, from the four quarters of the globe - east, west, north, and south. The Jews expressed those quarters by the winds blowing from them See Eze_37:9. See also Isa_43:5-6. “From one end of heaven, etc.” Mark says Mar_13:27, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. The expression denotes that they shall be gathered from all parts of the earth where they are scattered. The word “heaven” is used here to denote the “visible” heavens or the sky, meaning that through “the whole world” he would gather them. See Psa_19:1-7; Deu_4:32.
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look lets talk scripture, not calvin.
Matthew 24:22
Except those days should be shortened - If the calamities of the siege should be lengthened out. If famine and war should be suffered to rage.
No flesh be saved - None of the nation would be preserved alive. All the inhabitants of Judea would perish. The war, famine, and pestilence would entirely destroy them.
But for the elect’s sake - The “elect” here doubtless means “Christians.” See 1Pe_1:2; Rom_1:7; Eph_1:4; 1Th_1:4. The word “elect” means “to choose.” It is given to Christians because they are “chosen to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth,” 1Pe_1:2. It is probable that in Jerusalem and the adjacent parts of Judea there were many who were true followers of Christ. On their account - to preserve them alive, and to make them the instruments of spreading the gospel Jesus said that those days should not be lengthened out so as to produce their destruction.
It is related by Josephus (Jewish Wars, b. 1 chapter 12, section 1) that Titus at first resolved to reduce the city by famine. He therefore built a wall around it to keep any provisions from being carried in, and any of the people from going out. The Jews, however, drew up their army near the walls, engaged in battle, and the Romans pursued them, provoked by their attempts, and broke into the city. The affairs of Rome, also, at that time demanded the presence of Titus there; and, contrary to his original intention he pressed the siege and took the city by storm, thus “shortening” the time that would have been occupied in reducing it by famine. This was for the benefit of the “elect.” So the designs of wicked people, intended by them for the destruction of the people of God, are intended by God for the good of his chosen people. See the notes at Isa_10:7.
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I'm turning in, so we will meet again tomorrow. God bless.
LOL. Just because Calvin read the Bible and agreed with a point that all sorts of other Protestants believed as well as he, it doesn't make those beliefs "Calvinism."
For purposes of having a discussion, we sometime need facts, reasoning, and evidence, not just "what I believe is...."That is your perspective or view I do not share. I believe Calvin (using the views of St. Augustine) helped to spread the man made belief of OSAS that we have today, and he did not get it from reading the Bible or by asking God for the understanding on His Word.
For purposes of having a discussion, we sometime need facts, reasoning, and evidence, not just "what I believe is...."
no you are presenting a caricature. like I said earlier if you want to leave calvin out I'm in otherwise I have no interest.I was talking Scripture. I mentioned 2 Peter 3:9.
Also, Calvinism relates to OSAS because that is where it originates from.
So the two are tied together. For many who defend OSAS will say that a believer will be in a way forced to live a certain way and they will not justify sin (even though they have told me at other times that they can sin and still be saved). Calvinism is all about God forcing people to be a certain way or to be saved. OSAS is saying the same thing. Many will say if a believer is living an immoral lifestyle, they were never born again to begin with. Meaning, God forces a believer to be a certain way after they are saved by Grace. But this is not what Scripture teaches. We are told in Scripture to continue in God's grace. We are told to continue in the faith. We are told to keep ourselves in the love of God.
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