want to talk about OSAS?

chad kincham · Oct 25, 2020

1an said:
Highlighter does not have a false view.
.

And unlike what OSASers want us to think, seals are not unbreakable.

In fact they were meant to be broken.

In Pauls day, the only seals used, was by a king or high official, who would write a message in a scroll, and seal the end of it with a blob of wax, into which he would put an imprint of the royal crest to authenticate who sent it, and the recipient would know no one had read it or edited it, if the seal was unbroken, until they opened the scroll to read it.

That seal was meant to be broken.

Today all our food and especially medicine comes sealed, and those seals are very breakable, else we couldn’t open anything to use the product.

Being sealed is no proof of OSAS in any way.

chad kincham · Oct 25, 2020

alllivesmatter said:
That's asking Jesus to much to have to continue to die on the cross for our sins It was not a temporary action on his part. It was once for all.

That’s not how salvation works.

To be saved, we must repent of our sins - as part of our conversion so that our sins are forgiven (Acts 3:19) - but we can’t pre-repent of future sins - thus scripture is clear that only OLD sins and PAST sins are forgiven at salvation - not future sins:

2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was PURGED from his OLD SINS.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to bea propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of SINS THAT ARE PAST through the forbearance of God;

So the hyper-grace doctrine which claims all sins: past, present, and future sins, are forgiven at salvation, is wrong.

Future sins must be repented of as we commit them, to be forgiven.

That’s why the apostle wrote:

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us oursins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The apostle included himself, indicating he’s talking to believers, and not to the unconverted, as further shown by the fact he had just written THIS, before verse 9:

1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

1Jn 1:7 But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The blood of Jesus continuing to cleanse us from all sin, is conditional on continuing to walk in the light, as He is in the light, per the above.

Scripture makes clear that after we have been saved, there is a continuing conflict between our wanting to walk in the flesh, (that wants us to live in sin)- and our desire to walk after the Holy Spirit that now dwells in us - and warns that choosing to live in sins (works of the flesh), will keep us out of heaven:

Gal 5:16 ThisI say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Gal 5:18 But IF ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Gal 5:19 Now the WORKS OF THE FLESH are manifest, which are these;Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell YOU again, as I have also told youin time past, that they which DO such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul warns us over and over, that if we choose to walk after the flesh, we will die spiritually - but if we choose to walk after the spirit, we will have everlasting life:

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded isDEATH, but to be spiritually minded isLIFE and peace.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind isENMITY against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Verse 8:7 above, having a carnal mind is ENMITY against God, meaning you actually become Gods ENEMY.

Will God let His enemies into heaven?

Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is ENMITY with God? whosoever therefore will be a FRIEND OF THE WORLD is the ENEMY of God.

The verse above says sexual sins and being worldly, makes you Gods ENEMY.

Will God welcome His enemies into heaven?

We are expected and required as believers, to live the most sinless life we can, and to repent when we know we’ve sinned.

Scripture clearly shows that continuing to remain in Christ is conditional on us 1) continuing to walk in the light, as He is in the light, and 2) continuing to walk after the spirit, instead of after the flesh.

In the two verses below, I put in parentheses the conditional part of these scriptures that are always left out by hyper-grace, OSAS teachers.

1Jn 1:7 (But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another), and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The blood of Jesus cleansing the believer is conditional on their choosing to continue to walk in the light, as He is in the light.

Next:

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, (who walk NOT AFTER THE FLESH, , but after the Spirit).

Having no condemnation, and remaining in Christ, is conditional upon walking after the Spirit, and not after the flesh.

And Paul warns us against being deceived about living in sin as a believer, when he wrote:

Gal 6:7 Be Not DECEIVED ; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man SOWETH,that shall he also REAP.

Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; BUT he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting

You reap everlasting life only if you sow to the spirit (walk after the Spirit, Romans 8:1) , but reap spiritual death if you sow to your flesh.

When we do occasionally sin, we must confess it, for God to forgive it. 1 John 1:9.

The lies of hyper grace are twofold: you don’t ever need to repent after salvation when you sin; and you can’t lose salvation.

This makes grace a license to sin, since sin has no eternal penalty.

Thus if you want a mistress on the side, you can have one, and regularly commit adultery - or if you’re a drunkard you can get drunk every day - you can live a sinful lifestyle with impunity.

RickReads said:
All this talk forced me to go brush up on my manmade terminology. Per my research, most OSAS believers are Arminians and Arminianism developed a few years after Calvinism. The two were oppositional views in the 1500`s just as they are today.

OSAS is not Tulip anymore then Arminimania is.

What planet did you do your research in?

Because on earth, OSAS comes from the P in TULIP which is the acronym that Calvinists use for their five points, and the P stands for perseverance of the saints, meaning they can’t fall away, because they are irresistibly saved, and can’t be lost.

It’s Arminians who correctly teach that remaining in Christ is conditional on continuing to walk in the light, and continuing to walk after the spirit, and not after the flesh.

Google the five points of Calvinism, and see what you get.

Kenny'sID · Oct 25, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Here is a picture to help illustrate that for you.

So yeah, OSAS is not true because it leads many into justifying sin in some way.

I've seen that before and wondered if anyone had any information on if the man on the houseboat miraculously lived through that?

chad kincham · Oct 25, 2020

alllivesmatter said:
That's asking Jesus to much to have to continue to die on the cross for our sins It was not a temporary action on his part. It was once for all.

That’s not how salvation works.

To be saved, we must repent of our sins - as part of our conversion so that our sins are forgiven (Acts 3:19) - but we can’t pre-repent of future sins - thus scripture is clear that only OLD sins and PAST sins are forgiven at salvation - not future sins:

2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was PURGED from his OLD SINS.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to bea propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of SINS THAT ARE PAST through the forbearance of God;

So the hyper-grace doctrine which claims all sins: past, present, and future sins, are forgiven at salvation, is wrong.

Future sins must be repented of as we commit them, to be forgiven.

That’s why the apostle wrote:

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us oursins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The apostle included himself, indicating he’s talking to believers, and not to the unconverted, as further shown by the fact he had just written THIS, before verse 9:

1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

1Jn 1:7 But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The blood of Jesus continuing to cleanse us from all sin, is conditional on continuing to walk in the light, as He is in the light, per the above.

Scripture makes clear that after we have been saved, there is a continuing conflict between our wanting to walk in the flesh, (that wants us to live in sin)- and our desire to walk after the Holy Spirit that now dwells in us - and warns that choosing to live in sins (works of the flesh), will keep us out of heaven:

Gal 5:16 ThisI say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Gal 5:18 But IF ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Gal 5:19 Now the WORKS OF THE FLESH are manifest, which are these;Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell YOU again, as I have also told youin time past, that they which DO such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul warns us over and over, that if we choose to walk after the flesh, we will die spiritually - but if we choose to walk after the spirit, we will have everlasting life:

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded isDEATH, but to be spiritually minded isLIFE and peace.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind isENMITY against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Verse 8:7 above, having a carnal mind is ENMITY against God, meaning you actually become Gods ENEMY.

Will God let His enemies into heaven?

Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is ENMITY with God? whosoever therefore will be a FRIEND OF THE WORLD is the ENEMY of God.

The verse above says sexual sins and being worldly, makes you Gods ENEMY.

Will God welcome His enemies into heaven?

We are expected and required as believers, to live the most sinless life we can, and to repent when we know we’ve sinned.

Scripture clearly shows that continuing to remain in Christ is conditional on us 1) continuing to walk in the light, as He is in the light, and 2) continuing to walk after the spirit, instead of after the flesh.

In the two verses below, I put in parentheses the conditional part of these scriptures that are always left out by hyper-grace, OSAS teachers.

1Jn 1:7 (But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another), and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The blood of Jesus cleansing the believer is conditional on their choosing to continue to walk in the light, as He is in the light.

Next:

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, (who walk NOT AFTER THE FLESH, , but after the Spirit).

Having no condemnation, and remaining in Christ, is conditional upon walking after the Spirit, and not after the flesh.

And Paul warns us against being deceived about living in sin as a believer, when he wrote:

Gal 6:7 Be Not DECEIVED ; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man SOWETH,that shall he also REAP.

Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; BUT he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting

You reap everlasting life only if you sow to the spirit (walk after the Spirit, Romans 8:1) , but reap spiritual death if you sow to your flesh.

When we do occasionally sin, we must confess it, for God to forgive it. 1 John 1:9.

The lies of hyper grace are twofold: you don’t ever need to repent after salvation when you sin; and you can’t lose salvation.

This makes grace a license to sin, since sin has no eternal penalty.

Thus if you want a mistress on the side, you can have one, and regularly commit adultery - or if you’re a drunkard you can get drunk every day - you can live a sinful lifestyle with impunity.

RickReads said:
All this talk forced me to go brush up on my manmade terminology. Per my research, most OSAS believers are Arminians and Arminianism developed a few years after Calvinism. The two were oppositional views in the 1500`s just as they are today.

OSAS is not Tulip anymore then Arminimania is.

What planet did you do your research in?

Because on earth, OSAS comes from the P in TULIP which is the acronym that Calvinists use for their five points, and the P stands for perseverance of the saints, meaning they can’t fall away, because they are irresistibly saved, and can’t be lost.

It’s Arminians who correctly teach that remaining in Christ is conditional on continuing to walk in the light, and continuing to walk after the spirit, and not after the flesh.

Google the five points of Calvinism, and see what you get.

1an said:
Satan has been very busy beguiling people on the forums.
.

chad kincham · Oct 25, 2020

alllivesmatter said:
That's asking Jesus to much to have to continue to die on the cross for our sins It was not a temporary action on his part. It was once for all.

That’s not how salvation works.

To be saved, we must repent of our sins - as part of our conversion so that our sins are forgiven (Acts 3:19) - but we can’t pre-repent of future sins - thus scripture is clear that only OLD sins and PAST sins are forgiven at salvation - not future sins:

2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was PURGED from his OLD SINS.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to bea propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of SINS THAT ARE PAST through the forbearance of God;

So the hyper-grace doctrine which claims all sins: past, present, and future sins, are forgiven at salvation, is wrong.

Future sins must be repented of as we commit them, to be forgiven.

That’s why the apostle wrote:

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us oursins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The apostle included himself, indicating he’s talking to believers, and not to the unconverted, as further shown by the fact he had just written THIS, before verse 9:

1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

1Jn 1:7 But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The blood of Jesus continuing to cleanse us from all sin, is conditional on continuing to walk in the light, as He is in the light, per the above.

Scripture makes clear that after we have been saved, there is a continuing conflict between our wanting to walk in the flesh, (that wants us to live in sin)- and our desire to walk after the Holy Spirit that now dwells in us - and warns that choosing to live in sins (works of the flesh), will keep us out of heaven:

Gal 5:16 ThisI say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Gal 5:18 But IF ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Gal 5:19 Now the WORKS OF THE FLESH are manifest, which are these;Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell YOU again, as I have also told youin time past, that they which DO such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul warns us over and over, that if we choose to walk after the flesh, we will die spiritually - but if we choose to walk after the spirit, we will have everlasting life:

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded isDEATH, but to be spiritually minded isLIFE and peace.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind isENMITY against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Verse 8:7 above, having a carnal mind is ENMITY against God, meaning you actually become Gods ENEMY.

Will God let His enemies into heaven?

Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is ENMITY with God? whosoever therefore will be a FRIEND OF THE WORLD is the ENEMY of God.

The verse above says sexual sins and being worldly, makes you Gods ENEMY.

Will God welcome His enemies into heaven?

We are expected and required as believers, to live the most sinless life we can, and to repent when we know we’ve sinned.

Scripture clearly shows that continuing to remain in Christ is conditional on us 1) continuing to walk in the light, as He is in the light, and 2) continuing to walk after the spirit, instead of after the flesh.

In the two verses below, I put in parentheses the conditional part of these scriptures that are always left out by hyper-grace, OSAS teachers.

1Jn 1:7 (But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another), and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The blood of Jesus cleansing the believer is conditional on their choosing to continue to walk in the light, as He is in the light.

Next:

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, (who walk NOT AFTER THE FLESH, , but after the Spirit).

Having no condemnation, and remaining in Christ, is conditional upon walking after the Spirit, and not after the flesh.

And Paul warns us against being deceived about living in sin as a believer, when he wrote:

Gal 6:7 Be Not DECEIVED ; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man SOWETH,that shall he also REAP.

Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; BUT he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting

You reap everlasting life only if you sow to the spirit (walk after the Spirit, Romans 8:1) , but reap spiritual death if you sow to your flesh.

When we do occasionally sin, we must confess it, for God to forgive it. 1 John 1:9.

The lies of hyper grace are twofold: you don’t ever need to repent after salvation when you sin; and you can’t lose salvation.

This makes grace a license to sin, since sin has no eternal penalty.

Thus if you want a mistress on the side, you can have one, and regularly commit adultery - or if you’re a drunkard you can get drunk every day - you can live a sinful lifestyle with impunity.

RickReads said:
All this talk forced me to go brush up on my manmade terminology. Per my research, most OSAS believers are Arminians and Arminianism developed a few years after Calvinism. The two were oppositional views in the 1500`s just as they are today.

OSAS is not Tulip anymore then Arminimania is.

What planet did you do your research in?

Because on earth, OSAS comes from the P in TULIP which is the acronym that Calvinists use for their five points, and the P stands for perseverance of the saints, meaning they can’t fall away, because they are irresistibly saved, and can’t be lost.

It’s Arminians who correctly teach that remaining in Christ is conditional on continuing to walk in the light, and continuing to walk after the spirit, and not after the flesh.

Google the five points of Calvinism, and see what you get.

RickReads said:
All this talk forced me to go brush up on my manmade terminology. Per my research, most OSAS believers are Arminians and Arminianism developed a few years after Calvinism. The two were oppositional views in the 1500`s just as they are today.

OSAS is not Tulip anymore then Arminimania is.

chad kincham · Oct 25, 2020

alllivesmatter said:
That's asking Jesus to much to have to continue to die on the cross for our sins It was not a temporary action on his part. It was once for all.

That’s not how salvation works.

To be saved, we must repent of our sins - as part of our conversion so that our sins are forgiven (Acts 3:19) - but we can’t pre-repent of future sins - thus scripture is clear that only OLD sins and PAST sins are forgiven at salvation - not future sins:

2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was PURGED from his OLD SINS.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to bea propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of SINS THAT ARE PAST through the forbearance of God;

So the hyper-grace doctrine which claims all sins: past, present, and future sins, are forgiven at salvation, is wrong.

Future sins must be repented of as we commit them, to be forgiven.

That’s why the apostle wrote:

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us oursins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The apostle included himself, indicating he’s talking to believers, and not to the unconverted, as further shown by the fact he had just written THIS, before verse 9:

1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

1Jn 1:7 But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The blood of Jesus continuing to cleanse us from all sin, is conditional on continuing to walk in the light, as He is in the light, per the above.

Scripture makes clear that after we have been saved, there is a continuing conflict between our wanting to walk in the flesh, (that wants us to live in sin)- and our desire to walk after the Holy Spirit that now dwells in us - and warns that choosing to live in sins (works of the flesh), will keep us out of heaven:

Gal 5:16 ThisI say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Gal 5:18 But IF ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Gal 5:19 Now the WORKS OF THE FLESH are manifest, which are these;Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell YOU again, as I have also told youin time past, that they which DO such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul warns us over and over, that if we choose to walk after the flesh, we will die spiritually - but if we choose to walk after the spirit, we will have everlasting life:

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded isDEATH, but to be spiritually minded isLIFE and peace.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind isENMITY against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Verse 8:7 above, having a carnal mind is ENMITY against God, meaning you actually become Gods ENEMY.

Will God let His enemies into heaven?

Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is ENMITY with God? whosoever therefore will be a FRIEND OF THE WORLD is the ENEMY of God.

The verse above says sexual sins and being worldly, makes you Gods ENEMY.

Will God welcome His enemies into heaven?

We are expected and required as believers, to live the most sinless life we can, and to repent when we know we’ve sinned.

Scripture clearly shows that continuing to remain in Christ is conditional on us 1) continuing to walk in the light, as He is in the light, and 2) continuing to walk after the spirit, instead of after the flesh.

In the two verses below, I put in parentheses the conditional part of these scriptures that are always left out by hyper-grace, OSAS teachers.

1Jn 1:7 (But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another), and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The blood of Jesus cleansing the believer is conditional on their choosing to continue to walk in the light, as He is in the light.

Next:

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, (who walk NOT AFTER THE FLESH, , but after the Spirit).

Having no condemnation, and remaining in Christ, is conditional upon walking after the Spirit, and not after the flesh.

And Paul warns us against being deceived about living in sin as a believer, when he wrote:

Gal 6:7 Be Not DECEIVED ; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man SOWETH,that shall he also REAP.

Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; BUT he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting

You reap everlasting life only if you sow to the spirit (walk after the Spirit, Romans 8:1) , but reap spiritual death if you sow to your flesh.

When we do occasionally sin, we must confess it, for God to forgive it. 1 John 1:9.

The lies of hyper grace are twofold: you don’t ever need to repent after salvation when you sin; and you can’t lose salvation.

This makes grace a license to sin, since sin has no eternal penalty.

Thus if you want a mistress on the side, you can have one, and regularly commit adultery - or if you’re a drunkard you can get drunk every day - you can live a sinful lifestyle with impunity.

RickReads said:
All this talk forced me to go brush up on my manmade terminology. Per my research, most OSAS believers are Arminians and Arminianism developed a few years after Calvinism. The two were oppositional views in the 1500`s just as they are today.

OSAS is not Tulip anymore then Arminimania is.

What planet did you do your research in?

Because on earth, OSAS comes from the P in TULIP which is the acronym that Calvinists use for their five points, and the P stands for perseverance of the saints, meaning they can’t fall away, because they are irresistibly saved, and can’t be lost.

It’s Arminians who correctly teach that remaining in Christ is conditional on continuing to walk in the light, and continuing to walk after the spirit, and not after the flesh.

Google the five points of Calvinism, and see what you get.

1an said:
Satan has been very busy beguiling people on the forums.
.

Albion · Oct 25, 2020

1an said:
Of course, and it was no ordinary purpose, it was the very reason for the salvation of mankind.

That's fine, but it's not what is meant by "the Elect" or "Election."

So look if people think they were elected, for what purpose were they elected?

The concept holds that some people were chosen by God to be his saved ones.

What have they done to warrent their election? What makes them so special?

Like so many other things about this subject, we have not been given to know everything about God's ways, decisions, purposes, and so on. Nor do we know WHO is among the Elect. For those who are convinced by Scripture that this is a correct way of looking at the matter, it is sufficient to know that God has his Elect.

Will Jesus be saying to them, "well done my good and faithful SERVENT,..

Yes.

chad kincham · Oct 25, 2020

Danthemailman said:
See the difference? All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. Those who produce no results at all, but instead fall away before faith is firmly rooted and established were not truly converted. It happens all the time. People come to church and hear the gospel, then make an emotional response accompanied by a shallow, temporary belief, then may last anywhere from 2 months to 2 years, then leave church never to return. I have witnessed it myself on multiple occasions.

Nice try, but that’s erroneous.

Some absolutely are saved, and believe for awhile, but then fall away, as is proved below:

In Luke 8 Jesus tells the parable of the sower who sows the seed of the word of God.

Some seed sown lands on a rock. The seed grows, and RESULTS IN NEW LIFE, but then it withers and dies.

Jesus makes it clear that in the example of the seed sown on a rock, shows that some people BELIEVE for a while, but then FALL AWAY.

Luke 8:5 A sower went out to sow his seed...

Luk 8:6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was SPRUNG UP, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.

Luk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, *receive the word with joy*; and these have no root, which FOR A WHILE BELIEVE, and in time of temptation FALL AWAY.

Notice above, they *received the word with joy*

To receive the word with joy, is to become a follower of Jesus Christ:

1Th 1:6 And ye became *followers of us, and of the Lord*, having ‘*received the word* in much affliction, *with joy* of the Holy Ghost.

Some believe for a while, then fall away, and since scripture interprets scripture, it’s undeniable that they believed for a while, and became followers of Christ, and fell away.

In fact you described personally witnessing people who believed for a while, but then fell away, exactly how Jesus describes it happening.

Shalom.

chad kincham · Oct 25, 2020

Danthemailman said:
It was a spurious belief in the first place or else he would not have permanently fallen away. IN CONTRAST with the good ground hearer. Mark 4:8 - But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred. Luke 8:15 says, But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience/perseverance.

*See the difference? All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. Those who produce no results at all, but instead fall away before faith is firmly rooted and established were not truly converted. It happens all the time. People come to church and hear the gospel, then make an emotional response accompanied by a shallow, temporary belief, then may last anywhere from 2 months to 2 years, then leave church never to return. I have witnessed it myself on multiple occasions.

So the rocky soil represents a person not properly prepared in heart so the seed planted ends up with a lack of "root" (lack of being firmly planted, or established) and good soil represents a person properly prepared in heart who having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keeps it and bears fruit with patience/perseverance.

That no root, no fruit, lacks moisture, withers away = saved is laughable. Faith without works is dead = spurious belief. (James 2:14-18)

Bible Highlighter · Oct 25, 2020

Kenny'sID said:
I've seen that before and wondered if anyone had any information on if the man on the houseboat miraculously lived through that?

I don’t think it is a house boat.
As for the man: I do not know.

Kenny'sID · Oct 25, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
I don’t think it is a house boat.

It was for a moment.

zoidar · Oct 25, 2020

chad kincham said:
That’s not how salvation works.

To be saved, we must repent of our sins - as part of our conversion so that our sins are forgiven (Acts 3:19) - but we can’t pre-repent of future sins - thus scripture is clear that only OLD sins and PAST sins are forgiven at salvation - not future sins:

2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was PURGED from his OLD SINS.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to bea propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of SINS THAT ARE PAST through the forbearance of God;

So the hyper-grace doctrine which claims all sins: past, present, and future sins, are forgiven at salvation, is wrong.

Future sins must be repented of as we commit them, to be forgiven.

That’s why the apostle wrote:

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us oursins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The apostle included himself, indicating he’s talking to believers, and not to the unconverted, as further shown by the fact he had just written THIS, before verse 9:

1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

1Jn 1:7 But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The blood of Jesus continuing to cleanse us from all sin, is conditional on continuing to walk in the light, as He is in the light, per the above.

Scripture makes clear that after we have been saved, there is a continuing conflict between our wanting to walk in the flesh, (that wants us to live in sin)- and our desire to walk after the Holy Spirit that now dwells in us - and warns that choosing to live in sins (works of the flesh), will keep us out of heaven:

Gal 5:16 ThisI say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Gal 5:18 But IF ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Gal 5:19 Now the WORKS OF THE FLESH are manifest, which are these;Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell YOU again, as I have also told youin time past, that they which DO such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul warns us over and over, that if we choose to walk after the flesh, we will die spiritually - but if we choose to walk after the spirit, we will have everlasting life:

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded isDEATH, but to be spiritually minded isLIFE and peace.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind isENMITY against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Verse 8:7 above, having a carnal mind is ENMITY against God, meaning you actually become Gods ENEMY.

Will God let His enemies into heaven?

Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is ENMITY with God? whosoever therefore will be a FRIEND OF THE WORLD is the ENEMY of God.

The verse above says sexual sins and being worldly, makes you Gods ENEMY.

Will God welcome His enemies into heaven?

We are expected and required as believers, to live the most sinless life we can, and to repent when we know we’ve sinned.

Scripture clearly shows that continuing to remain in Christ is conditional on us 1) continuing to walk in the light, as He is in the light, and 2) continuing to walk after the spirit, instead of after the flesh.

In the two verses below, I put in parentheses the conditional part of these scriptures that are always left out by hyper-grace, OSAS teachers.

1Jn 1:7 (But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another), and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The blood of Jesus cleansing the believer is conditional on their choosing to continue to walk in the light, as He is in the light.

Next:

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, (who walk NOT AFTER THE FLESH, , but after the Spirit).

Having no condemnation, and remaining in Christ, is conditional upon walking after the Spirit, and not after the flesh.

And Paul warns us against being deceived about living in sin as a believer, when he wrote:

Gal 6:7 Be Not DECEIVED ; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man SOWETH,that shall he also REAP.

Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; BUT he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting

You reap everlasting life only if you sow to the spirit (walk after the Spirit, Romans 8:1) , but reap spiritual death if you sow to your flesh.

When we do occasionally sin, we must confess it, for God to forgive it. 1 John 1:9.

The lies of hyper grace are twofold: you don’t ever need to repent after salvation when you sin; and you can’t lose salvation.

This makes grace a license to sin, since sin has no eternal penalty.

Thus if you want a mistress on the side, you can have one, and regularly commit adultery - or if you’re a drunkard you can get drunk every day - you can live a sinful lifestyle with impunity.

What planet did you do your research in?

Because on earth, OSAS comes from the P in TULIP which is the acronym that Calvinists use for their five points, and the P stands for perseverance of the saints, meaning they can’t fall away, because they are irresistibly saved, and can’t be lost.

It’s Arminians who correctly teach that remaining in Christ is conditional on continuing to walk in the light, and continuing to walk after the spirit, and not after the flesh.

Google the five points of Calvinism, and see what you get.

Interesting but makes me wonder. Does it take one sin to keep me out of heaven? I don't always ask for forgiveness after sinning, doesn't the blood of Christ still cover the sin? It feels like Christians have very different ideas of what sin is. Some say just thinking a bad thought is sinning enough to deserv damnation. From that perspective it seems impossible your view is correct.

Aussie Pete · Oct 25, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Eternal life is a person and it not a super power or magic wish granted to you by a genie. Christ alone posseses immortality according to 1 Timothy 6:16. 1 John 5:12 says that he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life. This life is eternal life. So a person needs to abide in the Son in order to have eternal life. Well, that is you believe these verses in Scripture. Many in the OSAS camp will just ignore them or they will try to change them because they don't like them. So how can we have an assurance that we know Jesus and thereby have access to eternal life? 1 John 2:3 says, “And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.” Keeping God's commands involves acting on being saved by His grace (1 John 3:23), which then follows in entering the Sanctification Process of putting away sin, doing good works, and living holy by God's power. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says, “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” So we are chosen to salvation by two things and not just one. We are chosen to salvation through Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief in the truth. We are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).

Your salvation is way too small and petty. Do you know the difference between soul and spirit? The spirit is the part of us that gets born again. For a born again Christian to die spiritually, God, in effect, would be killing the very part of us that He made to live. The spirit is the eternal part of us. A Christian can lose their soul and suffer great loss. The spirit of the born again is eternal. God is not about to kill that which He made alive.

Again the confusion arises because people are unaware of the difference between the initial salvation of being born again and the on-going salvation of the soul. And no, it is not progressive sanctification. Sorry, Baptists, you are wrong.

RickReads · Oct 25, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
There are two things that are not on this list. The believer and their sin. Nothing is said of the believer or their sin not being able to separate them from the love of Christ. In fact, Paul also says,

We can fall from grace (Galatians 5:4).

We can be moved away from the hope (Colossians 1:23).

We can be a castaway (1 Corinthians 9:27).

We can be cut off just like the Jews if we do not continue in God’s goodness (Romans 11:20-22).

We can sow to the flesh and reap corruption instead of sowing to the Spirit which reaps everlasting life. (Galatians 6:8).

We can deny God by a lack of good works (Titus 1:16).

We can shipwreck our faith (1 Timothy 1:19).

We can deny the faith and be worse than an infidel if we do not provide for our own household (1 Timothy 5:8).

We can err from the faith and pierce ourselves thru with many sorrows if we love and covet after money (1 Timothy 6:10).

Hymnenaeus and Philetus have overthrown the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:18).

So to isolate these words by Paul here in Romans 8:28-39 is to take his words out of context.

Rediculous, 12 verses is not an "isolation". No one in any of your examples was predestined for salvation.

Rachel20 · Oct 25, 2020

1an said:
The people who fall away from sound doctrine are the OSAS people.

iyo

RickReads · Oct 25, 2020

chad kincham said:
That’s not how salvation works.

To be saved, we must repent of our sins - as part of our conversion so that our sins are forgiven (Acts 3:19) - but we can’t pre-repent of future sins - thus scripture is clear that only OLD sins and PAST sins are forgiven at salvation - not future sins:

2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was PURGED from his OLD SINS.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to bea propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of SINS THAT ARE PAST through the forbearance of God;

So the hyper-grace doctrine which claims all sins: past, present, and future sins, are forgiven at salvation, is wrong.

Future sins must be repented of as we commit them, to be forgiven.

That’s why the apostle wrote:

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us oursins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The apostle included himself, indicating he’s talking to believers, and not to the unconverted, as further shown by the fact he had just written THIS, before verse 9:

1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

1Jn 1:7 But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The blood of Jesus continuing to cleanse us from all sin, is conditional on continuing to walk in the light, as He is in the light, per the above.

Scripture makes clear that after we have been saved, there is a continuing conflict between our wanting to walk in the flesh, (that wants us to live in sin)- and our desire to walk after the Holy Spirit that now dwells in us - and warns that choosing to live in sins (works of the flesh), will keep us out of heaven:

Gal 5:16 ThisI say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Gal 5:18 But IF ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Gal 5:19 Now the WORKS OF THE FLESH are manifest, which are these;Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell YOU again, as I have also told youin time past, that they which DO such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul warns us over and over, that if we choose to walk after the flesh, we will die spiritually - but if we choose to walk after the spirit, we will have everlasting life:

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded isDEATH, but to be spiritually minded isLIFE and peace.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind isENMITY against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Verse 8:7 above, having a carnal mind is ENMITY against God, meaning you actually become Gods ENEMY.

Will God let His enemies into heaven?

Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is ENMITY with God? whosoever therefore will be a FRIEND OF THE WORLD is the ENEMY of God.

The verse above says sexual sins and being worldly, makes you Gods ENEMY.

Will God welcome His enemies into heaven?

We are expected and required as believers, to live the most sinless life we can, and to repent when we know we’ve sinned.

Scripture clearly shows that continuing to remain in Christ is conditional on us 1) continuing to walk in the light, as He is in the light, and 2) continuing to walk after the spirit, instead of after the flesh.

In the two verses below, I put in parentheses the conditional part of these scriptures that are always left out by hyper-grace, OSAS teachers.

1Jn 1:7 (But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another), and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The blood of Jesus cleansing the believer is conditional on their choosing to continue to walk in the light, as He is in the light.

Next:

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, (who walk NOT AFTER THE FLESH, , but after the Spirit).

Having no condemnation, and remaining in Christ, is conditional upon walking after the Spirit, and not after the flesh.

And Paul warns us against being deceived about living in sin as a believer, when he wrote:

Gal 6:7 Be Not DECEIVED ; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man SOWETH,that shall he also REAP.

Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; BUT he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting

You reap everlasting life only if you sow to the spirit (walk after the Spirit, Romans 8:1) , but reap spiritual death if you sow to your flesh.

When we do occasionally sin, we must confess it, for God to forgive it. 1 John 1:9.

The lies of hyper grace are twofold: you don’t ever need to repent after salvation when you sin; and you can’t lose salvation.

This makes grace a license to sin, since sin has no eternal penalty.

Thus if you want a mistress on the side, you can have one, and regularly commit adultery - or if you’re a drunkard you can get drunk every day - you can live a sinful lifestyle with impunity.

What planet did you do your research in?

Because on earth, OSAS comes from the P in TULIP which is the acronym that Calvinists use for their five points, and the P stands for perseverance of the saints, meaning they can’t fall away, because they are irresistibly saved, and can’t be lost.

It’s Arminians who correctly teach that remaining in Christ is conditional on continuing to walk in the light, and continuing to walk after the spirit, and not after the flesh.

Google the five points of Calvinism, and see what you get.

Arminian belief is a form of belief in Gods elect. It`s a one time salvation, security with the proviso of enduring. Once and always saved so long as you endure to the end.

Calvin didn`t create the doctrine of election. Your remark is inappropiate and why would you post the same message 4 times? You out to disrupt this thread since you lost the debate? You maybe should go do some confessing for the accusations you put in your post.

RickReads · Oct 25, 2020

zoidar said:
Interesting but makes me wonder. Does it take one sin to keep me out of heaven? I don't always ask for forgiveness after sinning, doesn't the blood of Christ still cover the sin? It feels like Christians have very different ideas of what sin is. Some say just thinking a bad thought is sinning enough to deserv damnation. From that perspective it seems impossible your view is correct.

According to the salvation losers one sin and Jesus will give you das boot outta the Kingdom. At the same time they themselves will insist they live completely sin free lives, par with Jesus. They won`t admit but by logic it is a works for salvation theology. Have to be sin free to be saved = saved by living sin free.

Uriah123 · Oct 25, 2020

alllivesmatter said:
I would like to clear it up. As I said on another thread, To me how can you not believe in it? You have to keep being saved over and over again otherwise? So once isn't enough for you? That would seem to say that being saved is meaningless if you can't count on it to stick around.
Any theories, thoughts, etc?

I have my own arguments for it but that might be the best argument i've ever heard. I believe we have to work for a living and if our boss wants us to work really hard we have to work hard (i mean this in the literal and not the metaphorical sense). I believe we can essentially always repent but Jesus Christ expects us to work 5 to 6 days a week at a job. The reason i believe this is due to a concept called "conservation of emotion". I'll only explain that concept if you want me to because it isn't critical to understand.

In short we can always repent and be forgiven but for various reasons Jesus Christ expects us to work 5 to 6 days a week. If i didn't believe in "conservation of emotion" i would find ways to survive without working for money.

Kenny'sID · Oct 25, 2020

RickReads said:
According to the salvation losers one sin and Jesus will give you das boot outta the Kingdom

RickReads said:
At the same time they themselves will insist they live completely sin free lives, par with Jesus

Can you please show me a quote of someone making those two claims? Actually by the sound of those posts, you should be able to show me several posters making the claim.

chad kincham · Oct 25, 2020

Aussie Pete said:
Not correct. If you are born again, then you have eternal life. Eternal life is just that. If it can end, then it is not eternal.

However, the Kingdom of God is a different issue. It is indeed possible to be born again and yet miss out on kingdom rewards and blessings. You cannot use the parable of the prodigal in the way that you interpret it. The son was still the son, and his father was still his father. The parable is much more about the love of the father, and God's attitude to those who fall away, than the son who strayed. The real villain is the elder brother, the self righteous one who was estranged in heart, even if living at home.

One of the evidences that a person is born again is that he no longer wants to sin. Many are so bound up that they are unable to break free. The lack of teaching about God's mighty delivering power leaves a lot of Christians in a cycle of sin, failure and defeat. Be careful how you judge.

RickReads said:
Arminian belief is a form of belief in Gods elect. It`s a one time salvation, security with the proviso of enduring. Once and always saved so long as you endure to the end.

Calvin didn`t create the doctrine of election. Your remark is inappropiate and why would you post the same message 4 times? You out to disrupt this thread since you lost the debate? You maybe should go do some confessing for the accusations you put in your post.

Because that’s my answer that pertains to the topic, and the truth doesn’t lose.

want to talk about OSAS?

Are you an OSAS believer?

yes

no

of course

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