Want advice on whether I should consider these thoughts related to mark of the beast valid

[Freth]

Thanks for your reply but I don’t agree with you that you are looking at the letter of old law not the Spirit which the new testament makes clear not required anymore also that seeking to observe days to make requirement to ever be saved causes you to be cut off as galatians says just as says if you seek to be justified by circumcision christ will profit you nothing. For new testament is clear one person esteems one day same to not judge and also one can esteem one day more important but it is clear the meaning must mean not as a requirement to ever be saved but just for a blessing or to be saved immediately on death for galatians makes clear that such may lead to judgement if sabbath is included in those days you should not observe which i cant know but bible is clear as I made point you dont have to. But I am not going to waste my time debating for I believe is clear that you can make point and others can debate.

It wasn't my intention to start a debate. It was to answer your question according to what scripture says. You can agree to disagree.

I would pose a question: If Revelation 14:12 ("...keep the commandments of God...") is not referring to the Ten commandments, then what is it referring to?

What commandments specifically? They would have to be commandments concerning worship as worship is what causes the mark of the beast to be received.

Some observations:

• If the answer is love God and love your neighbor. All the law and prophets are hung on love by Jesus, so the law cannot be negated whatsoever.
• One then would have to dismiss all of the New Testament teachings that directly reference the Ten.
• One would have to dismiss the last warning of Jesus in Revelation 22, which lists off a number of the Ten commandments directly.
• Concerning the Sabbath specifically, one would have to dismiss Jesus pointing to Sabbath observance when the great tribulation starts, or that the apostles kept the Sabbath and taught on the Sabbath post-crucifixion (namely Paul, "...as his manner was," (as his custom was; Acts 17:2) proving the point that he was not talking about the Sabbath commandment in Romans 14:5 (esteeming days), or he would've stopped observing the Sabbath).

There is a lot that has to be dismissed to come to the conclusion that "...keep the commandments of God..." is not referring to the Ten, but it takes no dismissal at all to come to the conclusion that God's law is eternal.

Malachi 3:6 For I am the Lord, I change not...
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

 

[BobRyan]

Thanks for your reply but I don’t agree with you that you are looking at the letter of old law not the Spirit which the new testament makes clear not required anymore also that seeking to observe days

IS 66:23 says that for all eternity after the cross -- in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship".
Acts 18:4 after the cross Paul is preaching the Gospel to gentiles and Jews "every Sabbath"
James 2 says that to "break one commandment is to break them all"
Jer 31:31-34 (and Heb 8) says the New covenant "writes the Law of God on the heart"

Jesus said in John 14:15 "if you love Me keep my commandments"
Matt 19 Jesus is asked "which ones?" - and then He begins quoting the TEN and other parts of the Law of Moses.

Deut 5:22 says God spoke the TEN commandments "and added no more" - making it clear that the TEN are included in the LAW of God written on the heart.

to make requirement to ever be saved causes you to be cut off

True of "Do not take God's name in vain"
True of "Honor your father and mother"
True of the Sabbath that is kept for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth Is 66:23

We do not earn our way to heaven by works.

But that does not mean we should start taking God's name in vain.

Eph 6:1-2 "Honor your father and mother - which is the first commandment WITH a promise" in that still-valid unit of TEN

No wonder so many Christians include ALL TEN of the TEN commandments in the moral law of God written on the heart

D.L. Moody -- affirms the Sabbath as given to mankind and still binding
Baptist Confession of Faith - section 19 - does the same
Westminster Confession of Faith - section 19 - does the same

The Catholic document Dies Domini does the same for all TEN commandments


one can argue that in those examples they try to "edit" the Commandment when they get to the Sabbath to point it to week-day-1 - but even so they affirm that the basic principle that all TEN still remain as moral law and apply to all mankind - remains.

 

[BobRyan]

You provided 0 arguments against the verses that I posted. Those verses clearly show the pre trib rapture.

Your texts only show that God does not pour out His wrath on saints -- and this was also true in the case of the 10 plagues of Egypt - and yet Israel was in Egypt.

IT is also true in John 17 where Jesus prays that God will keep the saints, protect and guard them while NOT removing them from Earth as we noted in the previous posts.

Matt 24:29 "immediately AFTER the tribulation
Matt 24:30 signs appear - Christ's appearing
Matt 23:31 -- rapture "he will send His angels to gather the saints from one end of the sky to the other"

2 Thess 2 : 1-5
Regarding our gathering together to Him - that day will not come until the falling away , apostasy and man of sin appear.

The post-trib rapture is pretty clear in those examples

2 Thess 2: 1Now we ask you, brothers and sisters, regarding the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit, or a message, or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 No one is to deceive you in any way! For it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

The Book of Revelation is not written in chronological order- trying to follow it as such one will get very lost.

Revelation 1 19 Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this.
Things that are - this is chapter 2&3. These chapters describe the age of the Church.
Then chapter 4 starts like this 'After this' after what? After the age of the Church. 'After this' in 4:1 is the same as 'to take place after this.' in 1:19.

Something happens to the Church between chapters 3&4. The word Church occurs 19 times in chapter 1-3, then not again until chapter 22. Where did we go? Quite simply, we have been raptured.

The book of revelation is chronological, except for 3 interludes.
You even have time described a lot in revelation so you can follow everything chronologically.

Chapters 1-3: age of the Church
Chapters 4-18: Daniel's 70th week, a.k.a. the week of Jacob's trouble, the 7 year tribulation
Chapter 5: God's throne in Heaven, glorified Church
Chapter 6: The Lamb of God breaks the seals, first 6 seals out of 7
Chapter 7: 1st interlude (between 6th and 7th seal), Designation of the 144,000 from Israel. Gentile believers from the tribulation
Chapter 8: The 7th seal is broken and it starts the blowing of trumpets, 7 angels will blow the trumpet
Chapters 10-14: 2nd interlude between blowing of the 6 and 7th trumpet. The second interlude - mighty angel, 2 witnesses, woman and dragon, antichrist and his empire
Chapters 15-16: The 7th trumpet announces 7 vials of the wrath of God which will be poured 1 by 1, now we are in the second half of tribulation, this will be the biggest persecution of the Jews there ever was. Between the 6th and 7th vial of wrath we have the 3rd and final interlude, preparation for Armageddon.
Chapters 17-18: 7th vial of God's wrath - Judgement of Babylon
Chapter 19: Marriage Supper of the Lamb in Heaven, Armageddon on Earth
Chapter 20: Satan bound for 1000 years, resurrection, literal millennium Kingdom. Satan released and the end of 1000 years, Gog and Magog. Judgement: Fire from Heaven. The big white throne, resurrection.
Chapter 21-22: New Earth and New Heaven, New Jerusalem, eternity.

31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is the elect from Israel. 2/3 will be killed during the tribulation, one 1/3 will be saved as per Zechariah.

John 14:1 “Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

Jesus is coming to take us to Heaven. Only pre-trib rapture fits this. If the rapture is post-trib, then we not going anywhere, but staying here on Earth and then is the millennium Kingdom. But as we can also see from the book of revelation, the Church is in Heaven while the 7 year tribulation is going on Earth.

I'll give you another evidence that the Church is already in Heaven before Christ comes back to Earth. Look at Rev chapter 19. The Marriage Supper of the Lamb is in Heaven before Christ comes to Earth. Verses 6-10 describe the Marriage, verse 11 starts like this ' And then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war.' See, it is chronological.

Verse 14 And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses...Angels don't wear fine linen, white and pure. But you know who does? The Bride of Christ 19:7 Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, or the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; 8 it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure”— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.

You see, when we come back with Jesus, we are wearing the clothes we receive in Heaven before the Supper of the Lamb. Post-trib rapture does not fit this at all, only pre-trib does.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

2 Thess 2: 1Now we ask you, brothers and sisters, regarding the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit, or a message, or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 No one is to deceive you in any way! For it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God

We will be gather together to Him, when the man of lawlessness is revealed. I don't know where you get post-trib rapture in this.

Jesus is coming, says Paul to the Thessalonians, 'and we will be gathered together unto him. A gathering together- episynagōgēs in Greek. It is used only one other time in the New Testament, that's Hebrews 10:25, and in Hebrews 10:25 it says forsake not the (episynagōgēs) assembling of yourselves together. It is a word reserved in the New Testament for Gathering Together of Believers. So the Thessalonian Christians were saying 'oh are we we already in the time of trouble. Is it already too late?' And Paul says 'now wait a minute we beseech you Brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus and our our specific gathering together to Him, don't be shaken. Let no man deceive you', and then he says 'I believe that after that will come the day of the Lord and then the falling away and and the man of sin is revealed and all of that, but I see as the primary event the gathering together, a special gathering together a special coming together of the Church a unique one separate from anything else. I think
2 Thessalonians 2:1 has a great amount of weight toward that end. So my belief is that the Church does not go through the tribulation.

John 14:1 “Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

Jesus is coming to take us to Heaven. Only pre-trib rapture fits this. If the rapture is post-trib, then we not going anywhere, but staying here on Earth, then comes the judgement, and then is the millennium Kingdom. But as we can also see from the book of revelation, the Church is in Heaven while the 7 year tribulation is going on Earth.

The post-trib rapture also cannot explain the sheep and the goat judgement in Matthew 25.
If all the regenerate people go up and come back then how come when Christ comes back the first thing He does, is separate the sheep from the goats. Who are the sheep? Sheep can't be Christians because there aren't any left they all got raptured, but if you move the rapture to the beginning of the seven years, then you have a seven-year period in which people will be saved that will constitute the Sheep at the end of the tribulation. So if you jam it all at the end, I see that as the major problem of a post-tribulation view. Where do you get the sheep for the sheep and goat judgment? Because if Christ takes all of us up and comes right back there aren't any sheep left.

Revelation 3 10 'Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.' Christians are no longer on Earth during the hour of trial.

 

[com7fy8]

Does anyone know if in some parts of the world such as switzerland if they have forced people to be chipped or you cant buy and sell ?

If that was happening in Switzerland, my opinion is that the United States even now would object to that, especially if it was done by a free nation like Switzerland.

Doesnt that mean if forced for them the mark of the beast already exists in some parts of the world ?

Well, in the United States we have reports that certain Christians have been "cancelled", meaning ones have hurt their reputations, financial security, jobs and other things.

and I thought the vaccine is not the mark of the beast because some still allowed to buy and sell but if they forbid in some places completely how do we know it was not the mark of the beast?

I did not have to deny Jesus in order to get vaccinated. And I did not knowingly do anything to worship Satan.

There are people who claim that the mark is during the great tribulation . . . after the pre-trib Rapture removes Jesus Christ's church bride.

But others believe God's people will be here during the great tribulation. But others argue that it would be too hard for children of God to be in the trib.

However > I understand how our Father has self control so His wrath judgments can not hurt His children. But the evil ones will have a very hard time: they will be dying and fleeing from the scorpion-tailed locusts; and they will suffer other anguishes. And so, in case there are any Christians in the trib, they will be able to take over houses and huts and caves of enemies who are killed and fleeing, and maybe adopt their children. And caravans and food trucks will be abandoned, for easy picking - - by those who are not allowed to buy or sell!

 

[BobRyan]

Thanks for your reply but I don’t agree with you that you are looking at the letter of old law not the Spirit which the new testament makes clear not required anymore

The Spirit inspired all of scripture - including texts people wish to ignore.

The Spirit informs us "what matters is KEEPING the commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
The Spirit tells us "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
The Spirit tells us that for all eternity after the cross - in the New Earth "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

also that seeking to observe days to make requirement to ever be saved causes you to be cut off as galatians

God does not give us His Commandments to try and get us "cut off" from the Gospel

"Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! in fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God" Rom 3:31

What law is that ? IT is the one where "honor your father and mother is the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

says just as says if you seek to be justified by circumcision christ will profit you nothing.

True.

And if you seek to be justified by "not taking God's name in vain" instead of "by grace through faith" you also get no salvation.

But that is not an argument for sin, not an argument for taking God's name in vain.

1 John 3:4 "sin IS transgression of the Law" even in the NT

1 John 2:1 "These things I write that you SIN NOT" -- even in the NT

For new testament is clear one person esteems one day same to not judge

Actually - Rom 14 says
"one man observes one day above another while another man observes them all"

It does not say "condemn the man who observes one day above another because that is legalism".

and also one can esteem one day more important

Indeed.

This is a ref to the list of annual holy days in Lev 23.

But it is not a text about "observing all 365 days " as days devoted to rest and worship since in Gal 4 observing even one pagan day is condemned and cancels salvation, in addition to the NT rule "if a person does not work - neither let him eat"

galatians makes clear that such may lead to judgement if sabbath is included in those day

Not in the actual Bible.

In fact in Acts 18:4 "Every Sabbath" Paul was in the Synagogue for worship and gospel preaching to gentiles AND to Jews.
In Acts 13 gentile converts ask Paul for "MORE" Gospel preaching to be given to them - "the NEXT Sabbath" when "almost the entire town" shows up for more gospel preaching.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:


2 Thess 2: 1Now we ask you, brothers and sisters, regarding the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit, or a message, or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 No one is to deceive you in any way! For it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God

We will be gather together to Him, when the man of lawlessness is revealed. I don't know where you get post-trib rapture in this.

The text says it is after the man-of-sin antichrist comes.
Rev 13 says that man of sin institutes the mark of the beast. --- that's tribulation

2 Thess 2 makes it clear just as does matt 24:29 "AFTER the Tribulation" saying that then "He will send forth His angels to gather the elect from one end of the sky to the other" vs 31

2 Thess 2 says that the problem of the antichrist is solved by Christ's appearing -- which is the point where we are gathered to Christ and the antichrist is destroyed.

2 Thess 2:1Now we ask you, brothers and sisters, regarding the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit, or a message, or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 No one is to deceive you in any way! For it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. 5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?

8 Then that lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will eliminate with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;

The "Coming" of Christ in vs 1 is what destroys the antichrist in vs 8 and is what raptures the saints.

 

[BobRyan]

John 14:1 “Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

Jesus is coming to take us to Heaven. Only pre-trib rapture fits this.

In the post-trib pre-mill rapture - Jesus take the saints to heaven at His appearing "immediately AFTER the tribulation" as Matt 24:29-31 states clearly.

If the rapture is post-trib, then we not going anywhere

ON the contrary - we go to heaven as John 14:1-3 already stated as you note above.

, but staying here on Earth, then comes the judgement, and then is the millennium Kingdom.

1. The great white throne judgment happens after the millennium as Rev 20 clearly states.
2. The individual judgment of Rom 2 and Dan 7 takes place in heaven prior to Christ's appearing as Dan 7 clearly states.
3. And as Dan 7 says - while that judgment is going on - the saints are being persecuted on Earth. That persecution does not end until judgment in heaven completes - and as the chapter says - only then does Christ appear.

But as we can also see from the book of revelation, the Church is in Heaven while the 7 year tribulation is going on Earth.

Not quoting any text in Revelation that says that - does not help your suggestion.

The post-trib rapture also cannot explain the sheep and the goat judgement in Matthew 25.
If all the regenerate people go up and come back then how come when Christ comes back the first thing He does, is separate the sheep from the goats. Who are the sheep? Sheep can't be Christians because there aren't any left they all got raptured

That is a circular argument.

Where do you get the sheep for the sheep and goat judgment? Because if Christ takes all of us up and comes right back there aren't any sheep left.

Christ takes all the saints to heaven for 1000 years,
they sit in judgment over the lost and then at the end of the 1000 year millennium that lost are punished according to the judgment rendered in that 1000 year period - and cast into the lake of fire to suffer the punishment specified.

Revelation 3 10 'Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.'

John 17 Jesus said to keep the saints from the evil one and then specifically says "NOT to take them out of the world" in order to do it.
He states explicitly "IN this world YOU HAVE tribulation" John 16:33
-- the Bible says all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus "WILL suffer persecution" 2 Tim 3:12

John 17:
I am coming to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, so that they may be one just as We are. 12 While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name, which You have given Me; and I guarded them, and not one of them perished except the son of destruction, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

13 But now I am coming to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves. 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I am not asking You to take them out of the world, but to keep them away from the evil one.

The result is that more saints were tribulated-to-death, killed, persecuted in the 20th century than in any century prior to that.

Christians are no longer on Earth during the hour of trial.

Not in any century known to mankind since the time of Christ.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Christ takes all the saints to heaven for 1000 years,

No. The millennium Kingdom will be on Earth, Jesus will be here, and so will His Saints. We can see the description in Isaiah 2:2-4
It shall come to pass in the latter days- that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established as the highest of the mountains, and shall be lifted up above the hills; and all the nations shall flow to it, and many peoples shall come, and say: “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob, that he may teach us his ways and that we may walk in his paths.” For out of Zion shall go forth the law,
and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. He shall judge between the nations, and shall decide disputes for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.

A literal kingdom on earth where Christ literally reigns in Jerusalem, and the law does go out of Zion. We have another description of the millennium in Isaiah 65:20 ' No more shall there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not fill out his days,
for the young man shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner a hundred years old shall be accursed.' If the millennium was in Heaven, then there would be no one dying, but here we read that people who die as 100 years old will be considered young.

In Zechariah 14 we read that people will go to Jerusalem and worship God and if they don't, there will be no rain '16 Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths. 17 And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain on them.'

Zechariah 8:3 'Thus says the Lord: I have returned to Zion and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem, and Jerusalem shall be called the faithful city, and the mountain of the Lord of hosts, the holy mountain.'

Revelation 19:11 describes the return of the Lord 'Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. 13 He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. 14 And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses'

Armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure are Christians. When and where they were dressed like that? The Marriage Supper of the Lamb 'Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure”—Revelation 19:7-8. Bible clearly shows the Marriage Supper of the Lamb precedes Lord's coming. The Christians are already in Heaven before the Lord returns. Post-trib rapture does not fit this, only pre-trib does.

1. The great white throne judgment happens after the millennium as Rev 20 clearly states.

I'm not talking about the white throne. I'm talking about the sheep judgement which happens before the millennium.

That is a circular argument.

You cannot explain the sheep argument with the post-trib rapture.

Not quoting any text in Revelation that says that - does not help your suggestion.

Revelation 4:1 - the Church is seen as taken to heaven. This shows that the Church will be gone when the Tribulation judgments are poured out. The Lord Jesus will deliver them from it before the wrath falls. If the Church is to go through the Tribulation at least one of the passages would speak of it, but there is not one reference to the Church being in the Tribulation, or having any connection with it.

In Matthew 24 and Mark 13 the Lord was speaking to His Jewish disciples which are representative of the Jewish remnant of believers that would be in the Tribulation. This is substantiated by the comments the Lord made to them. He spoke of what they should do when the temple and "the holy place" would be defiled by "the abomination of desolation" (vs. 15). He spoke about the land of "Judea" (vs. 16), about "the Sabbath" day (vs. 20), about "the tribes of Israel" being gathered together (vss. 30-31), and "the fig tree"—a well-known symbol of Israel (vs. 32). He also spoke of "the coming of the Son of Man," which is a title used in Scripture for the Lord's dealings with Israel and the Gentile nations of the earth, and never the Church.

Revelation 3:10 speaks about the Tribulation coming on the world, but not the Church. In fact, the Lord says in that passage that He is going to keep the Christians "out" of that "hour of trial!"

Revelation 7:14 the Tribulation is spoken of in connection with Gentile nations.

In Jeremiah 30:4-7, the Tribulation is referred to as "Jacob's trouble." It does not say, "The Church's trouble." It also adds that these things were concerning Israel and Judah.
In Daniel 12:1, it says twice that "the time of trouble" (the Tribulation) will be upon "the children of thy people." Daniel's people were Jews.

John 17 Jesus said to keep the saints from the evil one and then specifically says "NOT to take them out of the world" in order to do it.
He states explicitly "IN this world YOU HAVE tribulation" John 16:33
-- the Bible says all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus "WILL suffer persecution" 2 Tim 3:12

Christians will go through tribulations, but not the 7 year tribulation as described in revelation 4 to 19. The 7 year tribulation is knows as Jacob's trouble. This is not for us.

Romans 11:17: “And if some of the branches were broken off,” – that talks about Israel being broken off – “the trunk is the root of blessing.” Israel was plugged into God’s blessing, but Israel got cut off. They got cut off because of – what? – unbelief.

“And thou being a wild olive tree were grafted in.” Who’s that? Gentiles. Israel was cut off from the root of blessing because of unbelief, Gentiles were grafted in. So he says, “You were grafted in among them, and with them partakest to the root and fatness of the olive tree, but don’t get proud about it. Don’t be proud” – verse 19 – “and say, ‘The branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.’ Well, because of unbelief they were broken off. And just remember, you only stand by faith. Don’t be high-minded, but fear; for if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also spare not thee.”

Now look at verse 24, “For if thou were cut out of the olive tree” – now watch – “and grafted in contrary to nature, how much more shall these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree.” Now watch, Israel was cut off and new branches, the church, grafted in. The church someday will be severed, Israel will be regrafted in. Does that tell you there is a difference between Israel and the church? Of course it does. The church has in the place of blessing been grafted in. The day will come when the Lord takes the church. Israel will be grafted back in during the tribulation, and salvation will come to Israel.

Verse 25: “I would not, brethren,” – here he explains it spiritually – “I would not, brethren, you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own conceits;” – blindness in part has happened to Israel – “only until the fullness of the Gentiles, only until all of the branches have been grafted in the church is complete. Then,” – 26 – “then all Israel” – what? – “shall be saved.” Grafted back in again.

The tribulation is for Israel, as the Lord is not done with them. They are the ones the Lord speak in Matthew 24:31.

There are two distinguishable comings on Christ, one one clouds (1 Tes 4:16-17) and one on Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4). Rapture - He will come as thief at night (1 Tes 5:2), but when He comes back to Earth He is on white horse and armies are following Him (Rev 19:11-16). One event only the raptured will see Him (1 Tes 4:17) second event, every eye will see Him (Revelation 1:7). And so on.

 

[BobRyan]

No. The millennium Kingdom will be on Earth, Jesus will be here, and so will His Saints.

Not according to the Bible.

At Christ's appearing
1. All saints taken to heaven -- John 14:1-3, 1 Thess 4:13-18, Matt 24:29-31
2. All the lost/unsaved - are slain - 2 Thess 1:4-6, Rev 19 "the rest were killed"
3. Leaving what Jer 4 calls "no humans" on earth

- Jer 4:23 I looked at the earth, and behold, it was a formless and desolate emptiness;
And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills jolted back and forth.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no human,
And all the birds of the sky had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were pulled down
Before the Lord, before His fierce anger.

Jer 25:
30 Against all the inhabitants of the earth.
31 A clamor has come to the end of the earth,
Because the Lord has a controversy with the nations.
He is entering into judgment with humanity;
As for the wicked, He has turned them over to the sword,’ declares the Lord.”

32 This is what the Lord of armies says:
“Behold, evil is going out
From nation to nation,
And a great storm is being stirred up
From the remotest parts of the earth.

33 “Those put to death by the Lord on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be mourned, gathered, or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.

Since "no human" left alive on Earth

We can see the description in Isaiah 2:2-4
It shall come to pass in the latter days- that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established as the highest of the mountains, and shall be lifted up above the hills; and all the nations shall flow to it, and many peoples shall come, and say: “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob, that he may teach us his ways and that we may walk in his paths.” For out of Zion shall go forth the law,

New Heavens and New Earth

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

New Heavens and New Earth

Bible says clearly that during the kingdom the Messiah reigns on the throne of David in the city of Jerusalem and the law goes out of Zion. Why are you making this into a spiritual Jerusalem and a spiritual Zion, and a spiritual throne?

Not according to the Bible.

From Rev 19:11 up until the end of the 20th chapter, we have a description of the great coming Kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ on earth. A world where children can play in snake pits and find the snakes friendly and the snakes will find the children friendly as according to Isiah 11. A world where health is so widespread that if someone dies at a hundred years of age, they will be said to die as a child as according to Isaiah 65:20. There won't be people dying on New Earth and Heaven.

Then we have the glorious Ezekiel Temple as described in Ezekiel 40-48.
In chapters 40-42 Ezekiel describes this enormous new temple. In chapter 43, the glory of God returns. According to chapter 44-46, sacrifices are resumed and the land is restored to the people of Israel according to chapters 47-48. Even Gentiles have a place in the restored kingdom according to Ezekiel 47:22. The land will be ruled by a Davidic prince as we see in Ezekiel 44:3.

Revelation 21:22 'And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.' The temple in Heaven is God Himslef, so the Ezekiel temple must be on earth. Furthermore, there will be no animal sacrifices in Heaven.

Because of the numerous details of Ezekiel's vision and specific dimensions of the temple, we know the Ezekiel temple is literal, and not symbolic. The Ezekiel temple is also much bigger than the temple in Jesus' time, so it cannot be that temple. The Ezekiel temple only fits in the millennium kingdom, and that will be here on Earth as in Heaven, God is the temple.

God also gave some promises to Israel, that are yet to be fulfilled, and it won't be in Heaven. For example Genesis 15:18 that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, “To your offspring I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates, 19 the land of the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites and the Jebusites.” Israel has never possessed the specific boundaries that God promised in Genesis 15:18-21.

The work of the New Covenant—Jesus’ death and resurrection to reconcile hearts to God—has been accomplished. But we have not yet seen the complete fulfillment. Jeremiah 31:33 says, “But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.” Ezekiel 36:28 gives more specifics: “You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.” Isaiah 59:20–21 explains that this covenant is possible because of the Redeemer, and the reconciliation He provides will last forever. This covenant does not mean that every Jew will be saved. But it does mean that Israel as a nation will worship their Messiah. The Old Testament prophets who spoke of this covenant, including Isaiah, Jeremiah, Hosea, and Ezekiel, all wrote that it will be fulfilled in the future. From their time on, Israel has yet to be an independent nation that worshiped its Messiah as described in Romans 9 to 11. They will be in the 1,000-year reign of Christ.

I think we can agree that we will not agree where the millennium takes place. We will one day know the truth. God Bless.

 

[mikeforjesus]

Granted no one knows what Jesus actually looks like but what would be wrong with pictures which attempt to show a characteristic of Him being most loving which He is that in His heart if one was to display Him it would be most beautiful. I noticed even user Freth has an image of christ as icon that to have is not wrong that hopefully agree bow down to it in the 10 commandments just means to worship a false god as made by an image not to be attached to true God through a representation of Him.

 

[Tigger Boy]

Does anyone know if in some parts of the world such as switzerland if they have forced people to be chipped or you cant buy and sell ? Doesnt that mean if forced for them the mark of the beast already exists in some parts of the world ? and I thought the vaccine is not the mark of the beast because some still allowed to buy and sell but if they forbid in some places completely how do we know it was not the mark of the beast?

Mike, Has the first beast in Rev. 13, appeared on the world stage? No.

Has this beast waged war against the saints? Not yet since the beast has not come up out of the sea.

Has the second beast of Rev. 13, coming up out of the earth arrived on the world stage? No. Therefore, your concerns are unwarranted, since the Mark follows these three world events in chronological order.

 

[mikeforjesus]

Thanks you may be right but he may wage war invisibly behind the scenes that if told cant buy and sell without something as forehead and right hand may be symbolic or may not but I think it may be only if no one is found buying and selling without such a thing.

 

[Dave G.]

There has only been a few times when God poured His wrath on earth. He poured many judgements, punishments etc. But wrath : The flood, where Noah and his family and some animals were spared. At that He waited for Noah to finish the ark. The rest were swept away to destruction. Then Sodom. Lot and his family were lead out of Sodom, angels sent to get them out before the time of God's wrath was poured out. Everyone in the city was destroyed. These events are the wrath of God, just as God's wrath is poured out in the Bowl judgements, pure wrath. Revelation describes those bowl events as His wrath. It is written as " full strength".

I notice many here like to quote from the Gospels, the visible appearance of Jesus' second coming , to where He comes with His saints, landing feet on the ground. Those aren't the pre trib rapture scriptures though. Pre trib rapture scriptures describe meeting Jesus in the air. He never touches down, feet on the ground in the rapture event. In the pre trib event, we go alive to be with Him. In His second coming, literally back to earth, we come with Him. There is a difference between being caught up alive to meet Him in the air from earth, and being with Him coming back to earth.

As to the mark of the beast: first you need the beast, not just need him, but have him in authority. He causes/ requires all to renounce Christ, claim him ( the beast) as God , and for followers to take the mark. Understand, that Satan set the standards for this and that only the deceived do it. And it happens around mid tribulation. So, first we need to be in the tribulation period at least. And we need the beast, which scripture clearly states is a man. He could be with us right now for all we know, but Satan hasn't taken him over yet.